Fast Science Victory: Civ VII Edition

[Manpanzee]

Got an interesting one to share. Probably not blowing the doors off, and nothing like the crazy times that were possible pre-1.2.5. But should be some worthwhile stuff to point out. TL;DR, "Note G exists"

Ada Lovelace leading Han-Abbasids-Meiji
105 + 53 + 32 = 190 turns
Deity Continents w/ age countdown disabled. All other settings standard EXCEPT handpicked AI leaders (no warmongers, basically). Did have to work a bit to unlock civs.

--Note G is the real deal. I was able to get the final two projects in three turns, even with a meh production capital and only two IPs to pop. And I was extremely close to doing it in only two turns.

--Maya are obviously still very strong, but using Note G really opens things up, and you can use other Antiquity civs without feeling like you're seriously nerfing your endgame. Maybe room to play around with stuff like Aksum and Silla now.

--Abbasids still feel mega-OP. While they've been weakened, it doesn't seem nearly enough to make a difference. Round City = strongest tradition in the game?

--Meiji are probably still the strongest Modern civ, but their UA feels harder to abuse now, both because of the general economy changes, and the fact that it's much harder to scale science high enough to zero-turn through multiple masteries in one turn. I think you can at least consider playing other stuff in Modern, like Russia perhaps.

--I had 27 ticks of Exploration Economic when the age ended. Finishing the legacy path is unreliable, but I think hitting 2/3 by around turn 50 should be pretty regularly doable on the continents-style maps.
For a turn 50 finish, that leaves you needing a combination of three Future Techs/civ wipes. Thanks to 'Alim*, Abbasids should be able to hit two Future Techs regularly enough. The best way to get a third is probably to have a spare scientific IP that can be saved for a free tech at the end of the age.
*My finish was slowed by the fact that the free tech 'Alim was the very last one I spawned. There's some RNG here, but you can find time to dig through the full set of 'Alim if you really need to.

 

[civfanatic4sure]

What antiquity age progressions did you trigger across legacy paths, future tech/civics and civ wipes? I’m super interested in antiquity turn shaving but also wondering if optimizing for the lowest antiquity turn count via a specific leader/civ combo impacts future age turn potential, e.g. going hard for civ wipes sets you back because you got less academies down for an exploration golden, and so on

Either way, this update seems to have opened up at least some experimentation.

 

[Manpanzee]

What antiquity age progressions did you trigger across legacy paths, future tech/civics and civ wipes? I’m super interested in antiquity turn shaving but also wondering if optimizing for the lowest antiquity turn count via a specific leader/civ combo impacts future age turn potential, e.g. going hard for civ wipes sets you back because you got less academies down for an exploration golden, and so on

Either way, this update seems to have opened up at least some experimentation.

I had one civ wipe, 2/3 on cultural legacy path, and 3/3 on all other paths. I view this as the "standard" Antiquity path that should usually be achievable by turn 105 when playing with high-powered stuff.

Taking this as a given, the remaining requirements to shave turns below 105 are future tech/civic, finishing the cultural path, or achieving a double civ-wipe.
The double-wipe has the highest upside, but has to be the hardest and rarest.
Future tech should be the easiest, but getting that below ~turn 100 now might be difficult.
For hitting exactly 95, I think finishing cultural may be the most realistic target, but that requires some positive RNG with AI wonder-building decisions.

 

[incroc]

I’ve haven’t tried, but been wondering if it’s possible to play as Qajar in the modern age and give away all the settlements in a peace deal before the final projects.

 

[Krikkit1]

I’ve haven’t tried, but been wondering if it’s possible to play as Qajar in the modern age and give away all the settlements in a peace deal before the final projects.

Probably.... would get you ~200-300 or so production/food/science/culture

 

[Bleidraner]

@Manpanzee stupid question I am sure but what does RNG stand for? From context sounds like “luck”?
I have the same thoughts on sub 100. 3332 and one civ wipe for 105 and 3333 or second civ wipe for sub100. I think I have a game that will go below 100, so far my best is 105. I won’t be able to finish it until the end of the month though:-( Its Isabella with a mad production start which will allow me to finish culture, so the only tough thing is getting a wipe. The double wipe is I think unpredictable and very tough on Deity.

 

[incroc]

It does mean (un)luck.

It means Random Number Generator, but is often used to mean luck when a computer is involved.

 

[pmarc]

I've been trying different combinations with Ibn Battuta in Antiquity. With mementos and narrative events, you can get to level 3 in 2 attribute trees early in the age (provided they are your Civ's attributes) or even 3 attribute trees later in the age (with Ibn's quest, building the Oracle and researching the last Civ-specific civic). Getting the third scientific node early really speeds up research.

- With Khmer (exp/sci) you can also get the 3rd expansionist node early for +1 pop in towns, which combined with the UA results in really fast growth, thus fast science, and getting a strong army (with the elephants) earlier. That said, it doesn't guarantee a double civ wipe, and outside of that scenario you will be slowed down by the Khmer's lack of culture and settlement limit bonuses.

- Therefore maybe Han or Maya (sci/diplo) are better, especially with good city states as you can get to level 3 sci and level 2 diplo early (still put the first point in exp for settler production bonus). Han doesn't need the 3rd expansionist node as urgently, and the great wall helps with culture, although I've found it hard to prioritize in the first half of the age with everything else going on.

Also, in those games I've been picking Oligarchy rather than Despotism, because acquiring more tiles earlier scales science as well with that 3rd node, but I'm not sure if that's the correct call.

 

[pmarc]

The other thing I've been experimenting with is going heavier on culture than science early on. I just finished an Antiquity Age with Hatshepsut leading Aksum. The amount of gold and culture generation is impressive (even without investing in a lot of Hawliti early) and opens up an alternative path to ramp up science later with Nalanda and libraries bought in towns. (I stayed on 2 cities almost all age, mostly to build wonders, but converted a 3rd late for an extra academy.) I could complete the 4 paths by turn 100, but was slower on conquest, so didn't finish by 105. Maybe that was due to slower science early on, but also because the wipe involved taking 4 cities from Xerxes (King of Kings). Hatshepsut also relies strongly on getting your 2nd city (and maybe your 3rd) on a navigable river.

I'm not sure Hatshepsut is a leader whose ability scales particularly well in later ages, but at least you're guaranteed to unlock the Abbasids.

 

[civfanatic4sure]

The other thing I've been experimenting with is going heavier on culture than science early on.

I have been wondering if we'll get to a place where taking initially unintuitive paths is more optimal than going straight for VC yields -- in civ6 culture+faith was way more optimal for fast science than going for science yields. Obviously the mechanics were different, but hoping some fun paths open up as the patches roll out.

 

[pmarc]

Besides the military advantage of early science, the other big thing is how useful culture vs. science is for the Exploration transition. The cultural path in Exploration doesn't need much progression at all, and all other paths benefit from fast progression through the first half of the science tree. Due to this, everything else being equal you still get more value from Golden Age academies and boosts from Future Techs, than you get from Golden Age amphitheaters and boosts from Future Civics.

 

[Manpanzee]

Another interesting one to share. I had the same idea as others of playing a culture-heavy early game, before transitioning to science in Exploration. The main reason for this is simply getting some help with the hardest Antiquity legacy path, treating the rest as all easily achievable.

Xerxes the Achaemenid leading Aksum / Abbasids / Russia
102 + 56 + 26 = 184 turns

Mementos by era:
Science attribute + culture attribute
Expansionist attribute + Corona Civica
Lotus Blossom + Note G

--I could have finished Antiquity in 98 turns if I'd planned around getting the Tech Wrangler event. I wasn't sure what the deal is with this event, as the reference I look at says "Research four techs", which obviously isn't correct. I had the thought the other day that maybe it's actually four tech MASTERIES, which seems to be confirmed by @pmarc's post.

--Culture Xerxes + Aksum is obviously a nice synergistic combo. I think Aksum has gotten relatively buffed by recent updates, particularly with IP changes making settlement limit more accessible and lower opportunity cost. The economy changes also seem to have buffed UIs relative to UBs.

--In addition to taking Corona Civica in Exploration, I also used the +gold government and even the economic leader legacy option giving +15% gold at the expense of -10% food. The general idea was to be more ambitious about scaling my empire size, which I certainly achieved. I finished the era with 22 settlements, including five taken from AIs during the age. War was not as efficient as I'd like here, though, and sinking gold into it really slowed me down in the first part of the age.
Trading off food for gold is definitely dubious with Abbasids, since their UA pays them out gold for growing. Not sure I'd do that again, but using Corona Civica at this phase of the game seems like a promising approach.

--I launched the spaceship the turn after unlocking the last two projects. I saved Oxford for the end, meaning I was able to complete three tech and one civic worth of masteries on the final turn, generating mega-hammers via Note G.
I did some save/load testing and couldn't figure out a way to get everything same-turn finished... I don't fully understand the hammer overflow rules in this game, but I suspect they might be working against you here.

 

[civfanatic4sure]

Awesome notes! Can you post antiquity map end of age? I’m always curious how civ elims happen — sometimes it is super easy and sometimes it feels like deck stacked against you — just curious the proximity of the civ and the leader/civ combo — thanks in advance

 

[Manpanzee]

Awesome notes! Can you post antiquity map end of age? I’m always curious how civ elims happen — sometimes it is super easy and sometimes it feels like deck stacked against you — just curious the proximity of the civ and the leader/civ combo — thanks in advance

Here ya go. It was an imbalanced map roll, with three of us clustered close together and a lot of empty space on the other side of the continent.

The three dots on the mini-map just out of frame to the northwest were all founded by Ada Lovelace of Rome, Jose Rizal's former ally. Her settlements had pretty bad defensive terrain, and she didn't put up much of a fight. Meanwhile, I had great defensive terrain in the other direction to make a two-front war manageable.

My favorite thing about this map is the Fishing Quay in Tekondo that I managed to squeeze into the end of this massive navigable river. Since Dhows can ignore borders, I was able to get ships prepped in offensive position before the war kicked off. The boats took Chickasaw, and Jose gave me Choctaw for peace.

 

[civfanatic4sure]

Just finished my first full run through on the new patch. Not a good showing in exploration and modern era, but a top tier antiquity on this patch.

Isabella leading Maya / Abbasids / Japan
91 + 71 + 42 = 203 turns

Mementos by era:
Merchant's saddle (movement to scouts, settlers) + queen's jewelry (gold on natural wonders)
Golden seal stone (influence to science buildings) + queen's jewelry
Scientific attribute + queens' jewelry

Antiquity -- about as perfect a run out as you can get and another reminder to not be too picky on start position -- got a redwood start which seems like maybe the best starting wonder since it got updated to buff rural tiles. But I was coastal so down quite a bit of land in the city ring... and there was only one tile to build a district on out of the city center which was also the only 2 resource adj tile... seemed sub optimal but got me to go 5 scout opener! The neighboring civs on my left stayed weak and never went over 3 settlements which was huge for the double civ wipe (Confucius/Han, Catherine/Persia). I am getting partial to the merchant's saddle memento and extra scout (at least 4) and taking sailing very early; I haven't counted but i am getting at least 50% more goody huts and sometimes double with sailing plus that memento. A bunch of those boosts early really rocket you forward.

Exploration -- I was on pace for a sub 60 era but got totally skunked on treasure fleets, took a guess on which side of the map to go out on and whiffed, only one resource, other side was farther away and had a medium area of unsettled continent before distant lands, but if i had gambled i would have gotten probably 2 ticks on that legacy path, but instead got 0. Got the other legacies early and easily, got another civ wipe, but then dragged for 20 turns pushing 2 future techs to get over the hump; woof.

Modern -- I think I just don't get what you're supposed to be doing here; 26 turns vs 42 with my setup means I'm doing something fundamentally wrong when I have maya unique quarter -- I wanted to stack it with note G but the memnto bypass mod broke after last patch and im not level 9 w/ Ada.

Here's some shots from the antiquity -- I think close to 80 is possible, i popped the 2nd civ wipe at 190/200 and I didn't push w/ units like I should have, left at least 5 turns on the table here, but i can see someone getting a sub 80 on a golden run.

Spoiler End of Antiquity :

 

[Manpanzee]

Last game of the monthly patch is a new PB for me:

Ben Franklin leading Assyria / Abbasids / Russia
99 + 52 + 29 = 180 turns

Cultural attribute + Scientific attribute
Cultural attribute + Expansionist attribute
Lotus Blossom + Note G

--I pulled off the Deity Antiquity double civ-wipe for the first time. However, I really struggled with legacy paths, finishing with only 1/3 on both the culture and econ trees. This left me a bit short on attribute points going into Exploration.
Right now I feel like the double civ-wipe is only the best strategy if you can actually get it down to around 90 turns. If we're talking 95-99 turns, I'd rather prioritize legacy paths and/or Future Tech. You can also do civ-wipes in Exploration, so it's not always clearly better to wipe a second one in Antiquity, versus just beating it up and then finishing the job in a later age.

--This was another game of easily clearing the Exploration Economic legacy path in under 50 turns. While Pangaea is clearly the strongest map type for the Antiquity era, it looks to me like there is a meaningful advantage for Continents maps in Exploration. With the increased difficulty of stacking Future Techs/Civics in that era, being able to knock out this legacy path carries a lot of value, and I suspect Continents is the map type to be on right now.

--I was influenced by Ben Franklin's UA to try a different tech path in Exploration, opening Cartography --> Machinery --> Castles, and hard-building Sawmills and Dungeons before going for any science buildings. This is an approach I might try going forward even with other leaders, as hammers in Exploration feel really scarce right now.

--Below is the screenshot of my empire at the end of turn 1 of Modern, showing the kind of yields that lead to a ~turn 30 Modern victory. All meaningful portions of the scientific attribute tree have been unlocked, and I've scaled up to 21 settlements. With Lyceums and Russia, that goes a long way.

Spoiler :

 

[Salamis]

I’ve not yet completed a full run but have an Antiquity experience to share. This is more of a review of Silla in the context of a fast science victory.

Silla led by Xerxes the Achaemanid: Large Pangea and Islands map.
Mementos: Diplo and Scientific attribute points

Finished the Age on t100 with no civ wipes. All four legacy paths, 1 future civic and 1 future tech did the job. Completed every civic and mastery on the civic tree (including all uniques) and all techs and masteries except for Navigation.

Though Xerxes is not optimal for a fast Science win, he has an obvious synergy with Silla’s abilities and my aim was/is to see how well he can dovetail with them.

Silla:
- The civ ability of 1 culture on resources is exceptional. It really drives you through the civic tree. It’s also very painful to lose when you hit Exploration!
- The unique buildings and quarter can be very good but need a bit of luck to make the most of. The optimal site is a rough tile with 2+ adjacent mountains and that’s by no means guaranteed.
- The unique military unit is decent.
- The unique trader is outstanding. 5g for each level of relationship means that if you send the trader to an ally with the max level of 90, you bank 450g. The trader is pretty much what Silla’s potential hinges on.

Unique civics and Traditions:
- The Kolp’um civic gives you and an ally each a free trade route between each other’s capitals (this indirectly increases your relationship level because each of you are sending a trade route to one another; alliances are much easier to maintain).
- Strategic Allies Tradition: The wording of it is: “All Trade Routes between you and your allies award Food and Production equal to the Route's Gold award.” This needs some serious clarification:
My aim with playing Silla was to use this Tradition in the Modern era to provide the capital with mega food and production yields but that’s not actually in your control.
(Unless this is a bug….) The production and food is given to the ally RECEIVING the trade route, not the ally sending it. In Antiquity the Tradition works well because of the Kolp’Um civic; your ally automatically sends your capital a trade route. After antiquity you are dependent on the AI sending you a trade route to get any benefit from this Tradition.
- Other Traditions: Science on imported resources is probably the most reliable after Antiquity but is dependent on how many traders you can send out. The other two require you to do things that wouldn't ordinarily be a priority (buying Happiness buildings in towns or specialising a town as a trade outpost).

Silla Trade/Ally cycle:
Beeline the free merchant civic and immediately send the merchant to the civ you can most quickly form an alliance with. Prior to that ask for open borders, accept or where possible support endeavours they propose. What happens if you form an alliance with a civ but have already established a trade route with their capital? Is the merchant you sent wasted? No! That merchant is returned to your capital so you can then send it off to the next alliance target or send it to another settlement of your new ally. The relationship level will likely now be close to 90 so enjoy that 450g. Rinse and repeat.

With food and production from ally capitals and gold top-ups from sending trade routes, your capital can almost exclusively build wonders and merchants. By t80 on this map, I had four alliances and my cap could build wonders in 3-5 turns. The cap ended up with Great Stele, Colossus, Emile Bell, Oracle, Gate of All Nations, Weiyang Palace and Angkor Wat.

Overall:
Silla's culture and gold generation is very, very good - there will usually be enough gold to buy Science buildings to keep the science rate up. The culture output should reliably give you a shot at completing the civic tree in good time. Xerxes’ increased trade route range really amplifies Silla’s trading abilities. Without that it would be far more difficult to establish as many trade routes and potentially establish alliances. A Large rather than Huge map also helps provide more trading partners in range. While they can be excellent for a fast Antiquity, I think their abilities are more dependent on the map than most other civs.

 

[Manpanzee]

I've also been planning on doing Culture Xerxes + Silla for my next game. Waiting on the next patch and hoping that the improved trade UI / "Commerce Hub" they've talked about will be in the mix. Doing some theorycrafting in the meantime...

An overlooked component of Culture Xerxes' kit is the instant +culture when forming a trade route. While it's not a huge number, it opens up some interesting stuff. In particular, continuity mode + merchant stacking means that you may be able to instantly complete a civic on turn 1 of Modern. This gets you immediately to the +yields on specialists policies.

That in turn takes a lot of pressure off of your tradition slots to actually do things, which has me wondering if you can maybe possibly get somewhere in the vicinity of keeping up while playing non-Abbasids. Unfortunately, I think the answer is mostly "no", as Exploration civ balance is really bad these days. There are very few civs that could plausibly be described as "strong in a different way", and the reality is that the median Exploration civ is in "might as well be blank" territory in comparison to Abbasids. But there may be something interesting to explore with Xerxes Silla into Bulgaria, if you have the patience to micromanage a heavy pillaging game.

 

[Manpanzee]

Finished the Age on t100 with no civ wipes. All four legacy paths, 1 future civic and 1 future tech did the job. Completed every civic and mastery on the civic tree (including all uniques) and all techs and masteries except for Navigation.

I'm curious what you're doing for culture generation? I can see doing Future Tech in 100 turns, but I haven't come particularly close on Future Civic since the big patch, even when playing very culture-friendly setups.

Are you using the culture celebration? Spamming a lot of Monuments in Urban Centers? Making early cultural IPs a high priority? Rushing Citizenship for the +culture policy?

 

[Salamis]

I'm curious what you're doing for culture generation? I can see doing Future Tech in 100 turns, but I haven't come particularly close on Future Civic since the big patch, even when playing very culture-friendly setups.

Are you using the culture celebration? Spamming a lot of Monuments in Urban Centers? Making early cultural IPs a high priority? Rushing Citizenship for the +culture policy?

Silla is the only civ I’ve been able to do this with as the 1 culture on resources is so strong. The rest of the culture generation is pretty much what you mention:
- Every celebration the culture one.
- Urban Center Monument in one of the first two Towns and bought as early as possible. Another in the 3rd or 4th Town.
- Monument before Library in the cap.
- Sort of rushed Citizenship: Took it before going down the paths for extra Settlement limit but after many of the Silla unique civics.
- Try to have at least 2 of the first 4 settlements in Tundra. The culture on tundra tiles adds up nicely.
- One steal Government Secrets espionage action (I find it hard to have available Influence to justify more than one as they take so long).
- Support the first culture endeavour early on when offered. Supporting the next depends on (cultural) IP’s.
- With Silla, the first IP to prioritise doesn’t need to be cultural but with any other civ, a cultural IP as early as possible is my aim. If there’s a friendly cultural IP around then supporting an extra cultural endeavour can be the better way to go. If there’s only a hostile cultural IP around then the influence probably needs to be sunk into it as soon as possible.

In this 100 turn run, I suzed one scientific IP first, then a friendly cultural IP, both pretty early (I think both were by about t45-50). I didn’t suz another cultural IP until the end and took the free civic bonus at that point. I would have suzed more cultural IP’s if possible but there weren’t any other friendly ones and by the time I suzed the second one the other bonuses would not have outweighed a free civic.