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Fastest peaceful science victory?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by garmeth, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Rogue-star

    Rogue-star Chieftain

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    That video is about globalization peaceful SV, and I’m a good friend of the uploader. The origin play of using globalization is very early in Chinese forum on May 2017 ([Pericles peaceful SV in 190t] https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5130293802 ), which rush to globalization and use the 2 powerful policies to enhance the GPT/Prod/Science, then make the 3 key timings of SV (finish spaceport, finish all necessary techs, gain enough coins for purchase GP) much earlier.


    I used to use globalization in the 6otm25, which was not very good for Gorgo. I finished SV on turn 154 (in aggressive play, not peaceful) so I have to say that Pericles is more suitable for this. Also, it needs a full understanding of peaceful play, and a good understanding of Pericles and Greece. I have a better result of totally peaceful SV on turn 155 (totally peaceful, which means neither declared war nor been declared, so no looting), using Pericles, in November.


    Greece is a Civ that needs a very good city planning, how to maximize the city's output, how to arrange the districts of your core cities and so on. (We have a classification for city usage in peaceful play, core cities and ghost cities)


    For the save I attached, I have a very good map for many hills around capital, and a good beginning that suzerain Moenjodaro so we can build more cities. Districts sequence is Theater-Campus-CH for core cities, Campus-CH for ghost cities, because globalization science boost is very late (which is on turn 137), so CH is the last priority, the money is mainly from trading luxury/strategy resources in the mid-game. The Monarchy wall chopping overflow is a key for the early libraries and amphitheaters, then build a few museums. After that, all cities need universities, but the research labs are not necessary for we have many ghost cities and the globalization.


    In the late game (means after the globalization) there are some points too. My tech sequence is Economy-Satellite, starting to build Big-Ben very early, because I only find one city which has enough trees to chop, and it is for spaceport. Spaceport city use colony taxes + capitalism + ecommerce + all trade routes to maximum income, each trade route provides 30+ GPT and I have 10+. All great works are sold for cash, for we don’t need culture anymore. All cities do science project and find a place (I don’t have time and another place to build Eiffel Tower) for neighborhood replacement gold. At last purchase all great scientists left to achieve SV, in this game my bottleneck is still gold, it needs 28k for 3 atomic and 3 information great scientists. And there may be many micro points I missed.


    Someone questions about the looting problem, which I feel quite meaningless for peaceful play. According to my experiment, in the early and middle game, if you want to plunder, it will not only cancel your trade deals, but also waste the prod/gold to the army, and finally can't make a good relationship with AI for the war weariness is also high, that is a big risk (believe me, though AIs are vulnerable, they can really slow down your victory). In the late game the looting bonus is poor, and you often have 1000+ science incomes (extremely for globalization), tech finishes one by another, so the overflow science is hard to control (it will be cleared by looting). If you loot 50 but lose hundreds, it is more harm than good. It is always easier to criticize than practice.
     

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  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Agreed, and comparing a T200 peaceful win with a T140 agressive win is also not helpful.
     
  3. EpicWestern

    EpicWestern Chieftain

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    It works in the sense that I can see it work, as opposed, to someone saying "I can win in 150 turns with XYZ, believe me!"
     
  4. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    Here are some histories I currently collected~ hope these can help.

    At first, people in Chinese forum were wild about aggressive play. They developed many useful skills (most of them are based on the early researched formulas from civfanatics, and we appreciate it), such as: how to locate AI & CS by using the settler lens, chop/harvest overflow (agoge+god of the forge, limes wall, etc), chariot-knight rush, avoid the eureka clearing the science overflow, neighborhood gold from Eiffel Tower, change one-time policies through changing government, Big-Ben gold rush.... (Here I attach a very famous video link for a fast SV on T126 in aggressive play, using Aztec, winter 2016 version. Nearly all the skills above are mentioned: http://www.bilibili.com/video/av8669179/ , Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, Feb 17, 2017)

    Peaceful play was considered to be very hard at that time. In January after the 2016 winter update, a post showed that peaceful SV is possible on deity, said that Germany can achieve peaceful SV in about 240 turns (https://tieba.baidu.com/p/4956517360 ). In that very simple game report, the author turned the barbarian off, and kept zero army with very carefully diplomacy controlling, to make all AIs be allies. Someone doubt about the universality, for the barbarians are often a big problem in standard option games, also the AIs are not always friendly to player in some other games.

    Later, another detail game report was posted, which was economy focused (Cleopatra T215 SV, https://tieba.baidu.com/p/4969296340 , Deity-All-Standard, Continents, Feb 3, 2017), and all cities are built by player himself. Comparing to last report, it is not that peaceful, player was declared war by AI again and again, from beginning to the end. The author built 8 armies at the beginning, only for defense usage, and trying to make peace ASAP. The leading role of this report was Great Zimbabwe, which was built very early by Great Engineer on a different continent from capital, and get colony taxes (which is +35% at that version) ASAP. Also, he built dozens of settlers and used a lot of methods to keep +3 amenities in all cities, like: control the population to 6,8,10, maximum the Colosseum cities, buy luxuries, etc, to keep the +10% bonus. Finally, it was the Big-Ben GP rush via 1500+ GPT, using the great scientist’s rocket prod overflow to finish Oxford, successfully bet to unlock the last unfinished techs (the science output was very low during the whole game: before the last 2 turns the author even didn’t enter information era).

    After the spring 2016 patch, more and more people thought that the victories based on conquest are quite boring, why not a faster DV? In April, there is a new game report using Germany (T224 SV https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5066011569 , Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, April 10, 2017). The key wonder is Mausoleum, the author used it to double the 1500 Great Engineer and other engineers who provide prod to wonders, and carefully use the overflow. This report mentions some very important skills for scout explore: use settler lens to found nearby cities (CS or AI), use scouts’ ZOC to avoid barbarians (calculate barbarian scout’s next move), calculate AI’s settle position and block them...etc. The author used this skill to get a lot of advance at the beginning, and after this report, the scout beginning was considered very reasonable, which is at very low risk and brings massive advantages.

    A few days later, another record appeared (Catherine T210 SV https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5072038751 , Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, April 14, 2017), which is totally peace (means no looting) for very carefully diplomacy control (Catherine’s trait helps). He figured out that Great Zimbabwe is not necessary, because in the new version AI will pay a lot of money for strategy resources. The main thought is using the strategy/luxury resources and GPT to bleed all AIs cash, which can significantly decrease the War intention of AI (they have no money to build/upgrade their armies). He did it every turn, with a Big-Ben rush end.

    Production focus report was done by the same author (Barbarossa T179 SV, https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5090133402 , Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, April 24, 2017), and in a long time Germany was considered the best Civ for it. A diff was that he chose God of the Open Sky instead of Divine Spark (all other peaceful plays are based on Divine Spark), made the culture output more than science until very late. Another important point of the beginning was that the first settler should be purchased by money, and it will speed up a lot. The core of this report was the production focus and district planning: his science output was very low at the first 100 turns, and built mass of mines and mills, for each city the first district is IZ, that you couldn't even tell it was a science game. But after turn 100, the hard work on infrastructure construction was paid off by an explosive growth: GPT/Science/Culture output doubled in every 5~10 turns! Unfortunately a bug appeared on turn 126, after a strange joint war against him. Then no major civs can make deal with him, even peace. But he still launched the spaceship on 179. After this report, many other players learned this strategy, and got many better results among T165~180 using Germany, while for other Civs the turn is T180~195.

    Then the globalization style came, also by the same author (Pericles T190 SV https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5130293802 , Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, May 24, 2017) and it’s also totally peace by diplomacy control. He tried to maximum the culture output, buying AI’s great works, and used all he could afford to bleed AI’s money. Once Globalization is finished, sell all the great works back to AI, then the Big-Ben rush. According this report they noticed culture focusing is very powerful for SV.

    The theater strategy appeared on June (Pedro T181 SV https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5179370628 , Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, June 23, 2017), and that author figures out that in the early and middle game, culture is much more efficient than science, since the key tech often needs production (i.e. university, factory), but the key civics are mostly instant (i.e. exploration, suffrage), and the campus need not to be finished first. In this report, the author use Brazil’s UA to gain a lot of cultures from theaters in jungles, and Aesthetics doubled it. The second resource he chose was gold, for the GP’s price reduced by Pedro’s LA.

    (Actually after June, I was addicted to another strategy game called Stellaris (and many console games) till the R&F expansion info released. So the details after June I did not know very well, but still I can find a few of them)

    According to these reports above, you shall see that although we want science victory, science is definitely very important, but it does not need to maximum at the early game, focusing on other resources may be better, for that science is not the bottleneck in most cases. So, what about religion? It also works for some special Civs, a report posted by Rogue-star shows that (Saladin T175 SV https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5300160705 , Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, Aug 31, 2017), even no science CS. (A big changes came on July 28, rising of settler cost is negative, monarchy wall 50% overflow and reducing of district cost are positive) It mentioned the ghost city theory, and many other good points. Because this guy is also on this forum, if you want to know the details, please PM him~ :p

    Finally it was the discovery of 60% district. They found that 3 theaters beginning and blocking other district’s tech can get more discount districts, and this is the origin link of that report (Pericles T170 SV https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5407456858 , Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, Nov 3, 2017). The author figured out that Pericles is too powerful after a new patch buff for peaceful SV. And after several days, the formula is finally be founded by them. The save file that Rogue-star attached above is the same map of this report, and he got a better result.

    Thank you~ :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  5. EpicWestern

    EpicWestern Chieftain

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    Great write-up, thanks!

    Its a bit unfortunate that this works, feels pretty close bug exploitation and again its tedious looking for deals all the time.

    I guess, I'm picky, but my ideal science victory rules would be:
    peaceful
    no trading
    no save/loading
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    No! A huge thank you to you. I like peace and diplomacy and this style of SV seems like much more fun and challenge than kil kill kill. I will certainly be playing a few games this way given the chance.
     
  7. BismarckTheBarb

    BismarckTheBarb Chieftain

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    Boyan Sun,
    Thank you for sharing strategies. It was very refreshing to hear something new.
    Regards BB
     
  8. antimony

    antimony Chieftain

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    In principle, I disagree with the no trading. Getting favorable trades from the AI is one of the few current benefits of maintaining good relationships. In an ideal game the benefits from diplomacy should be balanced against the gains from war, so that war and peace are both competitive strategies. Granted the AI is somewhat of a pushover on both counts at the moment, but putting house rules against any trades (rather than just preventing blatant exploits like the joint war one in the previous patch) seems to stack the deck further in favor of automatic war.
     
  9. antimony

    antimony Chieftain

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    I find it interesting that Brazil appears as one of the top contender Civs in @Boyan_Sun's examples. I always thought that Pedro was underrated in power rankings on this forum. His main weakness is a lack of early game advantage, but Amazon is almost always a significant boost on the first few campuses and theaters. The 20% GPP rebate is also very strong when GP recruitment is the limiting factor for victory time.
     
  10. EpicWestern

    EpicWestern Chieftain

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    Yeah, agree 100% that in a perfectly designed game of civ, both peace and war would be competitive strategies, and that trading would be a major part of both benefiting from peace, and a tool to ensure it in the first place.

    But war is already so overpowered, you have a house rule against it already (peaceful victory).
     
  11. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    Hi, fresh video link here, by Rogue-star, Germany T170 peaceful SV, Deity-All-Standard, Pangea, with 3-theaters style, LIVE record
    https://www.bilibili.com/video/av17885344/
    [o] peaceful
    [x] no trading
    [o] no save/loading
    ...
    [x] loud and clear:crazyeye:
    [o] toooooooooooooooo long:sleep:
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yes, the whole trading area is just wrong at the moment although I like the idea of getting a few extra gold a turn early with a GPT deal. Lots of efficiency in this game.
    upload_2018-1-3_13-3-43.png
     
  13. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    Thank you for reading, and It's my pleasure:)

    Actually there is a trading bug (maybe feature?) in Civ6 and it has not fixed yet, which was found very early in Chinese forums (winter 2016 I remember): If you do many deals which is good for a specific AI, the gold he give you will be higher in next trade deal. (if you do it 20 times, AI may even accept a 1 GPT=33 cash deal:undecide:). So early reports in Chinese forum will make the statement that not using this bug, and then it was considered not to use by default later. In the videos I posted you will see that it was forbidden already.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  14. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    Oh I really made a big mistake, you were asking for non-peaceful ones? I had mentioned it in the 1st paragraph that in very early time last year there were many fast non-peaceful SV&CV reports, in 120~150 turns. That 126 Aztec video is an example. But after that more and more people wanted to challenge something different, because it is actually a conquer victory for non-peaceful SV&CV. Still a few reports through, you want them? Very sorry for my misread:cry:

    Ah that is more common used in aggressive play, you can drain AI's cash with GPT and then declare war on them (so the GPT will be back), then next AI (may make peace with 1st), then third... Somebody thought it was unfair, for in C5 you cannot trade cash from AI until friendship declaration. That is a very big (maybe fatal) reason why Chinese forums came to peaceful play.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  15. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Chieftain

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    Hi @Boyan_Sun
    thank you very much for providing all these links and write-ups. Its quite refreshing to see a different take on this amazing game.

    I'd love to see the links for aggressive science victories as well, and see
    Aztecs are a special civ (capturing builders and using builders to complete districts, including the spaceport in less than 5 turns etc) really gives Aztecs an advantage no other civ can catch-up with.
    My personal record (non-aztec) is T137 science victory (no re-load, not exploiting AI trades, not using walls-overflow, not using neighborhood for gold strategy etc) and I would love to see what achievements other goods players have.
    Sadly, there is very few good games on youtube (single-player at least), as most famous western streamers are very charismatic (hence get the followers) but rather poor at the game.

    Thanks again for your great links, will have time to watch them all soon.
    Cheers.
     
  16. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Chieftain

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    Hi @Rogue_star
    this Rome game is an amazing achievement. Hopefully I'll have some time off work to study it in detail.
    I remember reading your GoTM Gorgo Victory, and I was quite surprised as you managed a very good finish time with just 15 cities that were a whole level more developed than mine.
    Looking forward to watching the Germany video.
    Thanks again.
     
  17. Juan Sebastied

    Juan Sebastied Chieftain

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    How you can have 16 cities without war?? on normal map with other 7 civs? it's impossible
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I imagine we are only talking deity here?
    Its not impossible at all but it does require a good map. You have to understand these victories and times are on good maps with good starting resources.
    You can get around 9 cities closely packed on many maps but beyond that can be a challenge. The idea is to get additional cities spread out there ... I imagine these are what they call Ghost cities... but I do not know. I will find a place with a bit of chopping and some crabs and settle it purely because I want another campus and also to harvest the crabs/bronze at the end game for near 1K each. As long as there is a bit of chopping around to compensate for a late district its fine and getting auto walls puts off the AI.
    The other day I came across 3 barb settlers, it can make a big difference to your game the luck involved with what you find. playing with barbs off is more of a challenge, the AI's explode faster but there is a gap where they stop expanding and concentrate on growth.
    What will happen when loyalty comes into the equation will be quite interesting.
     
  19. Juan Sebastied

    Juan Sebastied Chieftain

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    Hi, ok. Sorry for my english, i'm italian. I playng Civ 6 from about 2 months, i'm finishing it in 280 turns (cultural and science too, with 7/8 cityes) without problems at level 6....but i can imagine tu finnish in 220 turns.... (not talking about 140 turns).
    I ask a question because maybe there is something i don't understand.....why you all talking about Big Ben and why to buy all that great scientist on the finals turns?????? they can build parts of the spaceship or what?
     
  20. Hactar

    Hactar Chieftain

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    Yes, exactly. In particular, Kwoiek gives a 100% production bonus to space projects, and Sagan gives 3000 cogs towards space projects. Those two together are almost enough to finish all the 5 projects. With one more bonus (e.g. an earlier Great Engineer gives another 20% bonus) they are enough.
     
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