Favorite new civ

[SuperBeaverInc.]

Yay! I just won my game with Byzantium! I got a domination victory even though I wanted a conquest

 

[Hygro]

That should be "Byzantium"

Also Xen, this Vinician republic was much more an oligarchy IIRC.

And anyone dissing the Byzantine UU has got it ALL wrong

3) not the greatest presidence for representation

We have a lot more Dutch civvers than we do of the any other new civs.

 

[Xen]

not that- I meant civ acheivement wise- i could care less if I was the only non dutch on the forum, it still dosent change anything- there are better civs to choose from for the game then sticking another european civ in an already over crouded europe

 

[Hygro]

Well then I think Jack Merchant and Emperor Xerxes have given ample justification.

 

[Xen]

I suppose it all depends on whos interperting it- I tend to disvalue civs who dont make a big impact on the world- and having power for 200 years dosent cut it, with the exception of African civs, as the area needs better representation (it could be argued for the americas as well, but both the Maya, and the Olmac civs were around since 300 BCE)

 

[Emperor Xerxes]

For Gods sake Xen, face it the Dutch are hardly small fry in Civ standards! Just because the Dutch didn't speak Greek, thier leaders marry hookers, thier establishment randomly overthough each other and thier civilization cower behind a giant walled city for 1000 years doesn't make them any less worthy than your beloved Byzantium. I know that Republics were hardly new but the it was innovative for a Western Europe where the only concievable governement at the time only seemed to be Monarchy, Monarchy or Monarchy. And possibly Feudalism.

I love Byzantium but you just completely disregard loads of Civs, oh lets have more Africans because there is not much on a world map. So what, try playing on a random map damn it. The Byzantines did'nt do that much you know! Ohhh...we stored all the old books and defended barbarian Europe from those horrible Arabs with thier evil astrology and philosophy! Meh, lets just pray in the Hagia Sofia and let everything work itself out, hey guys? Oh no! The Turks! Our walls will save us...what the...they have some kind of fire sticks...nooooo!!! Dammit... the aristocracy overthrew me again. Ah well...maybe that Russia will do better...

Oh, and just to annoy you further: All hail the Dromon, the superior and famous Byzantine unit!

 

[Emperor Xerxes]

Fortifies nuclear bunker with automated defenses.
And Dromons.

 

[Xen]

sorry if I'm being irratinol latelly- I havent been getting much sleep latelly (big school tests, and a streesed out private life latelly- most of what I say is rather irrationol, but somewhat reflective-there is also the fact that ALL of these discussions have been brought up before now, and dismissed I might add, I just need to dig up my old rationals....

 

[Xen]

besides that- consider this-

Byzantium preserved classical civilization.classical civilization reformed the world into a more scientific way of thinking that had been lost (there were pitfalls in the period as well, but this was a fault of the dominant european religion, and not classical culture)

now, consider that it is this rebourn classical culture that pue ENTIRE world is based upon- almost every facet of a modern western life is based upon it, and even has direct paralles in ancient Roman, and in many cases GHreek culture as well.

and we owe this to the Byzantines.

our entire way of life.

our culture, our outlook, our governemnts, everything.

all based on the preservation of classical culture.

all thanks to the Byzantine empire.

I would not be so quick to dissmiss the importance of that single contribution of that empire to history.

 

[Sarevok]

the byzantines were not the only ones who did that Xen... you have tunnel vision.

 

[Xen]

who else? its a well established fact the the crusader states were re-introduced to Byzantine classicla based culture during the crusades, creating an ever growing hunger for more tale of the great civilzations of the past- and a greater respect, and wanting of emulation of them.The other major source were the Iberian arabs- who made good use of the Byzantine sources left in southern spain.

 

[Sarevok]

again, you have tunnel vision.

You stated that we live the way we do ONLY becasue of the byzantines, youre forgetting everyone else. did byzantin=um aid the rest of europe in their development?

 

[Xen]

yes- by basiclly giving them a giant self help introduction to classical civilzation

 

[Sarevok]

and what was that introduction?

 

[Xen]

the crusades

 

[wilbill]

Originally posted by Xen
and we owe this to the Byzantines.

our entire way of life.

our culture, our outlook, our governemnts, everything.

all based on the preservation of classical culture.

all thanks to the Byzantine empire.

I would not be so quick to dissmiss the importance of that single contribution of that empire to history.

Don't forget "leapt tall buildings in a single bound" and "fought a neverending battle for truth, justice, and the western way."

Xen, please expand the scope of your reading to include a little bit of history other than Byzantine. It might help you avoid making outlandish sweeping generalizations like this one.

 

[Sarevok]

By the time of the crusades the british and french could claim that they werent the barbaians they were in the 5th century. although they were nowhere near the culrural level of byzantium or the arabs. iIt was the arabs that were more influential on europe that Byzantium.

 

[Xen]

well, almost right, but it cannot be denied that th eintroduction for the sweet nectar of classical civilization was bestowed to europe by the byzantine empire (there are other sources, more time consuming to dig up, which show are stronger direct connection to Byzantium, but for now, this will strengthen my argument untill i re-find those sources, as somthing made with out a quote to a respectible source of information will swept aside as "narrow headedness", or tunnel vision- make no mistake, the first time 'round I was proved right in my claims, and thus justified to make them, which is why i continue to do so, as it is the proovable truth. you will notice a lack of argument before your own postings.

Philosophy Perhaps the single most salient aspect of Byzantine culture was the transmission of classical culture. While classical studies, science, and philosophy largely dissipated in the Latin west, Byzantine education and philosophy still zealously pursued these intellectual traditions. It was in Byzantium that Plato and Aristotle continued to be studied and were eventually transmitted first into the Islamic world and then back into western Europe. A basic education in Byzantium consisted first of the mastery of classical Greek literature, such as Homer (largely unknown in the West during this period)—almost all of the Greek literature we have today was only preserved by the Byzantines.

this is from the washinton state university website on world civilizations

here is the link-

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/WORLD.HTM

 

[jack merchant]

Don't forget the importance of the Caliphate of the Omayyads in Al-Andalus as a conduit for not just classical civilization to Europe (here's one source) but also advances in many other fields (another link).

Anyway, the point of this discussion wasn't the worthiness of Byzantium, but the worthiness of other civilizations to be included. Going over the merits of the Byzantines again serves no useful purpose.

on edit, here is a more scholarly article. I'm glad this discussion came up, because it's fascinating stuff.

 

[wilbill]

Xen, my disagreement is with gandiose claims of Byzantine influence which virtually ignore any other cultural influences on western civilization -- and there were a few others -- and on your insistance on overlooking the fact that Hellenic thought and learning had not completely disappeared in western Europe after the fall of Rome. It still existed, but it had certainly lost its power to influence development.
From your UW website:

Byzantine culture is important because of two lines of transmission. One of line of transmission involved the exporting of classical Greek and Roman culture into Islam and, to a lesser extent, the transmission of Byzantine theological speculation into Islamic theology. The second is the transmission of Byzantine culture and religion to Slavic peoples, especially to the Russians...

...The Byzantine inheritance also included the sense that Byzantine culture and practice was fundamentally different from European culture and practice. This sense of Byzantine distinctiveness would also impress itself on Slavic cultures up until the present.

Seems to me that if western culture owed its existence to Byzantium, that contribution might have made the top of the list.
That's not to say the Byzantine contribution wasn't enormously important, just that it's contribution isn't quite so all-inclusive as "our culture, our outlook, our governemnts, everything."

The traditional picture of the Byzantine exiles in fifteenth-century Italy, as painted by Gibbon, does represent something of an exaggeration. It ignores the fact that Greek studies had not been entirely moribund in the previous century, as Bruni claimed, and stresses the role of a small number of individuals. Yet by their teaching, translation, and involvement in scholarly debate, the Byzantine scholars helped to transfer to Italy an aspect of their own culture, ancient Greek literature, which was in turn to have a profound influence on the literature and thought of early modern Europe.

Your Byzan-centric explanation of "why we are the way we are" would probably be popular in a university Classical Studies department, but somewhat less so in the History department.
You'll find it difficult to prove that we owe "our entire way of life" to Byzantium because it simply isn't true.