Fear of Horsemen

[Sarisin]

My first few games I got creamed by the Horsemen - not because I couldn't defend, but because I couldn't attack. They had Fear and I didn't have Courage.

Yes, you need a Paladin (too far away in Marathon games) or an Adept with a Spirit Mana promotion - Courage. In some games I couldn't get an Adept in time, in others no way to get Spirit mana through a node or trade.

So, I had to try other things. Some worked, most didn't. Suggestions and comments follow; yours are welcome:

1. Werewolves. Ever hear of a pansy werewolf? Of course not, but I had some. I sent a stack of 2 Greater Werewolves, 6 Blooded Werewolves and the Baron after Buboes. 6 of the 8 withdrew in fear from the Horseman. However, the 1 Greater Werewolf and 1 Blooded Werewolf did enough damage that the Baron killed Buboes.

Suggestion: Werewolves aren't afraid of anyone/anything. They should be able to attack and override Fear.

2. Heroes. Another time I sent Kithra, Yvain, and Gilden after the Horseman who makes messy allover the place. They would not attack because they were afraid. Afraid? Didn't you ever see Lord of the Rings? Did those Fellowship hero guys show Fear and run away when they ran into foul creatures? Of course not.

Suggestion: Let the most powerful units attack bad guys with Fear. Heroes can't be afraid of anything too. Maybe even let Tier IV units attack as well (besides Paladins) if you have them then.

3. Summoned creatures. OK, this worked out fine. Another time I was going after the same messy Horseman and was able to have Yvain summon a Treant for me. He wasn't afraid of the Horseman. Only one problem - he barely put a dent in the bad guy's Unholy Armor. Meanwhile he was burning down all the trees in sight and it was hard to summon Treants with no trees. Finally, many turns later, when half the map is in flames, I built 3 Druids and was able to summon 3 Treants who took out the Horseman.

Suggestion: None. Hurrah for the summoned ones who show no fear!

4. AI behavior with Fear. This was almost laughable. The 5 remaining AI civs sent stacks of their units just outside the city where the Horseman was sitting. They couldn't do anything, but just hang out. One civ had so many units in its stack, it truncated. Their lands were burning down from the Fields of Perdition (a Tom Hanks movie I loved) or whatever.

Suggestion: Maybe improve the AI on dealing with Fear or make it easier to attack the Horsemen with Fear. Also, give the AI an all-expense paid trip to study with the NYFD so their lands don't get burnt to a crisp.

Really, the AI just doesn't seem to have a clue...

Anyway, any other suggestions for dealing with Fear, particularly in the early game on Marathon when the Horsemen show up around yr. 750 of 1801?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Suggestion: Werewolves aren't afraid of anyone/anything. They should be able to attack and override Fear.

Or at least units with enraged.

But in a future version the counter will probably be adjusted for map size and/or number of opponents, so you should have a bit more time.

It might be nice if fear worked as a percent chance, something like 10*the difference in strength if the unit with fear is higher str. BUt maybe that's too complicated.

 

[Switchblock]

Only trouble with your suggestions are that getting the fear promotion will be worth less.

Hero's obviously should be immune to fear though, maybe undead units should (you ever hear of a zombie run away?) Perhaps disciple units too (they believe their god will protect them).

 

[loki1232]

Or at least units with enraged.

It might be nice if fear worked as a percent chance, something like 10*the difference in strength if the unit with fear is higher str. But maybe that's too complicated.

Two good ideas.

And do mechanical units get afraid (ie catapults)?

And yeah, heros shouldn't either. Maybe not the beast class as well.

Another thing interesting would be if the four horsemen all started geographically very far apart on the board.

 

[Kael]

Or at least units with enraged.

But in a future version the counter will probably be adjusted for map size and/or number of opponents, so you should have a bit more time.

It might be nice if fear worked as a percent chance, something like 10*the difference in strength if the unit with fear is higher str. BUt maybe that's too complicated.

Fear is a percent chance based on the relative strength. But the horsemen's strength is so high that no one gets through it.

 

[.SinClaire.]

And do mechanical units get afraid (ie catapults)?

no, but the people working 'em do.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

I find a useful way to counter fear is summoning and holy spells. Ring of flame for instance decimates my besiegers! In addition, I've never had an event where my heroes couldn't kill something. I took Acheron with Order hero, and then killed his orcs. The key to solving this is an early hero, who is powerful enough by the time an enemy strikes to be immune to fear.

 

[seZereth]

I am working on the real Horsemen graphics currently... expect a screenshot of the first Rider tomorrow or in 2 days
(I say Rider, because I am thinking about modeling a new horse from scratch ... which might take another two evenings or three...)

 

[Sarisin]

I find a useful way to counter fear is summoning and holy spells. Ring of flame for instance decimates my besiegers! In addition, I've never had an event where my heroes couldn't kill something. I took Acheron with Order hero, and then killed his orcs. The key to solving this is an early hero, who is powerful enough by the time an enemy strikes to be immune to fear.

This is a good strategy. However, my original post, and the ones recently bringing up the same issue is that the Four Horsemen arrive too early in Marathon speed and some Epic games...BEFORE you get a chance to have conjurers, mages and spells. For some civs (like the Doviello who I am playing now), their national hero arrives very late in the game. You can easily be beaten by the AI (depending on game difficulty) to other religion-specific heros and ones like the Baron, Typhoid Mary, etc.

There are many good strategies dealing with countering the Horsemen, but I don't think many work when you are playing a Marathon game on a huge map (default number of AI civs), with raging barbs. The problem is the speed at which the counter advances and that has a lot to do with the proliferation/razing of barb cities by the AI.

It's very tough if you have no units stronger than axemen and hunters and no courage when the Horsemen appear at your borders.

 

[Pocus]

Back to the original point made in february, is the AI now capable of restoring his land and dealing with Horsemen?

 

[kenken244]

unliving units are immune to fear. thats why summoned units are immune to fear

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I wonder if the 4 Horsemen's new horses mightbe nice for normal mounted units riding on nightmares, once BtS opens up the ability to make promotions change the graphics.

 

[Sarisin]

unliving units are immune to fear. thats why summoned units are immune to fear

That's correct, but, again, the chance of having Sorcery/Summoning before the Horsemen arrive in a Marathon game is not good. Even getting the techs necessary to build the mana nodes is tough when the advancement is slower than the counter.

 

[Sarisin]

Back to the original point made in february, is the AI now capable of restoring his land and dealing with Horsemen?

I'm not sure what you mean by restoring his land.

I haven't played many Fire Marathon games for the reasons I mentioned, this being one of them. Epic seems to suit Fire better.

I think the AI is even less prepared for the Horsemen as you never see any AI units with Courage to be able to combat the Horsemen' Fear. But, one thing that I have seen happen is the AI tends to produce many Archers. Fortified in a city on hills, Stephanos et al would maybe kill one or two, but they do not wait to heal and would be killed on the second attempt. If the Horsemen waited to heal, they would destroy the AI.