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Feature suggestion: Expell Great Prophet

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by erebos, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. NotSure

    NotSure King

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    I took both Religious Texts and Itinerant Preachers as Byzantium and the pressure form my religion was so strong it neutralized a neighbors holy city and flipped all of his nearby cities. Itinerant Preachers seems to be the stronger of the two, especially in a wide empire.

    The Inquisitor is really the best answer for this. I try to keep a couple around. I chased an Ethiopian GP all the way back to it's capital with two Inquisitors and a Lancer.:lol:

    There should be a way to tell the AI not to try converting your cities though. Holy wars should be justifiable conflicts that don't cause universal warmonger hits. I would totally understand if a neighbor went hostile after you told them to stop spreading their religion. The war(s) that follow should only affect diplomacy between the two parties involved, civilizations that share the same religions, and to a lesser extent "friends" of the involved parties. Warmonger penalties are still way too pervasive, persistent and punitive (God forbid you declare war on a civ more than once!).
     
  2. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    How about good, old-fashioned hypocrisy? Genghis wants to bully city-states. Why would he share that prerogative with another civ? They can't pay tribute to you and then him.

    A casus belli system can always be exploited by a canny warmonger. I got no problem with that. Look at WWI. Archduke Ferdinand provided a pretty flimsy basis for war, but it was enough to seem justified because Germany went through the motions.

    The one thing a casus belli system should do effectively is distinguish between a civ who's launching blitzkriegs without precursor versus those who have gone through the motions of putting the opposing civ on notice.
     
  3. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Thadian,

    I guess I misunderstood you. The way I read your orignal idea was that when you, the player, go to DOW or denounce, you would be given options to justify it. I thought you meant that you could DOW or denounce out of the blue when no 'justifying' circumstances had happened.

    I see that you meant that you would get the option to DOW/Denounce and justify it AFTER something has happened, like when you catch a spy red-handed.

    The way I read it, I could just go up and DOW a civ two continents over and just make up a justification even if nothing had actually happened.
     
  4. Smokeybear

    Smokeybear Emperor

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    Religious zealots are sneaky little bastards. They always sneak in under the radar, and you don't even know they're around until the troubles start. This applies in CiV, too.
     
  5. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    :lol:
     
  6. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    :agree: I posted an idea about casus belli in 2010. Here is the link :-
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=387640
     
  7. Lance of Llanwy

    Lance of Llanwy King

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    There really needs to be more ways to combat the spread of an unwanted religion. Currently, if you see a missionary or a prophet around, your only recourse is to spend 300 faith on an inquisitor. You can't even tell the offending AI to stop(which is especially annoying considering they can do that to you), and, barring the inquisitor solution, you have no other (practical) way of stopping a missionary or prophet.
     
  8. Smokeybear

    Smokeybear Emperor

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    Yeah, it's not always practical, but in a pinch, you can surround your vulnerable city with units and workers, takes up to six, depending on mountains, water bodies or whatever. I've had to do that a few times, but it does work. Also, if you station an inquisitor or two at the closest cities between you and the source of the missionaries, they will often get hung up and unable to figure out how to get around those cities, almost like the inquisitors are a RAID barrier that the little cockroaches can't go through (nice analogy, that). I do wonder if the Inquisitors have some kind of hidden zealot-repellent quality, the way missionaries and GP's are reluctant to try to go past them (to get to other unguarded cities beyond).
     
  9. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    The longer we go, the more dissatisfied I am with both the religion and espionage features. It's a good thing the city-state rework and especially the navy reworks worked, or I'd be feeling pretty cheated by this expansion pack by now.
     
  10. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    The number of times a civ has declared would be one factor. Then place other factors in a 3 stage list.

    The first stage is protection of the self against another - if another expelles your prophet, spies against you, denounces you or settles on your border, etc.

    The second stage would list reasons associated with protecting others - You denounced my ally, you attacked a city state.

    The third stage would be instigation over something. Possibly making a demand with a button that says "Declare War!" so the AI knows the options are Pay its last gems or have war because of not paying gems.

    Each time a war occurs or justification occurs, (over denouncement or war) the other AI nations would have to assess the reasoning (if you denounced askia "because of city state bullying" and declared against mongol "To liberate venice") then the Ai could make decisions that are responsive and proactive at the same time.

    Greece and Siam are happy that you won't let Mongol push around the City states, Elizabeth hates that you denounced Askia for spying and Greece hates Siam for "Meddling in minor nations" for allying 14 city states. Meanwhile, Russia is angry that Mongol has a large army and Egypt is upset that others are wonder-building so he asks "Please stop production of [Wonder A]." Now, do you please Egypt, giving him Taj Mahal - or do you complete this wonder and add more to the pool?

    Maybe Rome likes other people who build wonders.

    This would take some work, like adding anything but truthfully, the AI could be given flavores that check both reason (was the reason good for me to accept?) and actions (was the reason pillowfisted, taken too far or just right?) after all, nobody likes a pillow-fisted loudmouth for an ally and nobody wants someone near them who goes bonkers over a spy or great prophet.

    Hey, if nothing more maybe a modder will see this thread and get an idea. In theory - just have each justification mean as much as action or lack of action (your action might be "I forgive you for spreading your religion in my empire"). As for the AI using this themselves, i think it would increase dynamic diplomacy.
     
  11. oliver

    oliver Chieftain

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    They should a diplomacy option saying stop evangelizing in my territory. It should work like the stop spying button they can accept or refuse and u take a diplo hit.
     
  12. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    Other AI would either be happy you asked (we also hate evangelism) or upset (you are preventing our people from sharing their ideas!) - Asking would pose the first hit, then acceptance/refusal would give that nation a small hit. Some nations like people who agree to stop evangelism - while others who enjoy the practice would feel upset that someone was forced to agree to stop.
     
  13. Peng Qi

    Peng Qi Emperor

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    I think they should make Missionaries, G.Prophets, and Inquisitors be able to engage in "combat" with one another like in Age of Empires or some of the Total War games even while in peacetime. I'd set it up like this:

    Missionary: 3:c5strength:
    Inquisitor: 6:c5strength:
    G. Prophet: 9:c5strength:

    Each time a Missionary or Prophet reaches 0 health, it would lose one of its conversions. An Inquisitor reaching 0 health would simply die. This "combat" would have no bonuses or penalties applied due to terrain, flanking, etc.

    Oh, and even Missionaries would be allowed to "attack" other missionaries and even prophets, but obviously they'd be pretty bad at it. Prophets would be able to engage any religious target, too.
     
  14. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    Don't forget "Someday I shall rule the world!" for those who are legitimately warmongering and aren't ashamed to admit it.
     
  15. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    Meh, it's a great person. His ability should be *powerful* and, as it happens, it is. It's meant to be an invasive unit. Be extremely vigilant, have lots of inquisitors in your empire, or deal with being prophet bombed from time to time. It's annoying? Good - it should be. It's annoying when someone great engineer steals a wonder I've spent 50 turns on, pops a citadel next to my borders, etc etc - but I wouldn't argue they be changed.
     
  16. Unthinking Pain

    Unthinking Pain Chieftain

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    Meh, I don't see why anyone warmongering to stop the spread of a religion should avoid a warmongering diplomacy hit. Yes, it's Holy War - and that's warmongering. You just crossed the lines by responding to the peaceful spread of a religion with open, largescale bloodshed.
     
  17. docbud

    docbud Emperor

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    I have a problem in my current game. The CS Jerusalem is my ally, and follows my religion. Ethiopia keeps sending a missionary there and trying to convert Jerusalem to his religion. So I had to send my missionary to convert it back to mine. Rinse and repeat several times. I finally parked a few of my missionaries over there as he keeps sending his missionaries. I sent an Inquisitor but apparently they only protect your cities, not your CS's.

    He tried to send missionaries into my cities, but I have Inquisitors in all of them.

    It's just annoying he keeps trying to convert Jerusalem :(
     
  18. Danglesan

    Danglesan Chieftain

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    Wouldn't 'hexing' it in by surrounding it with 6 units be more effective? I also wonder if you could possibly (with enough units) herd GPs out of your territory, or into a out of the way place. A detainment camp of sorts. :)
     
  19. wpfossil

    wpfossil Chieftain

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    A couple of times I've had luck herding GPs toward barbarian camps where they get captured. Then I sack the camp and use the GP as a scout or delete it. Once I was lucky enough to get one that could still build its holy site (which is non-denominational).
     
  20. Smokeybear

    Smokeybear Emperor

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    Nah, it wasn't largescale bloodshed. I just strung up one smelly, long-haired hippy dude from that big tree over there. Pretty minimal bloodshed, really. It was the stupid civilization that deliberately sent him over my borders to screw up my believers that got all worked up about it and insisted on war. They should get a diplo hit for aggravated believer theft *and* for forcing us into a war with them for putting a proper end to said theft.
     

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