Features that Civ 7 Could Do Without

[SCBrain]

"How many people enjoy browsing through dozen of those objects among all players to theme them for marginally more points, or shuffling 20 paintings between 7 museums, because Louvre in civ5 apparently can store only four paintings in the same time?"

This made me laugh out loud!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The only problem I can see is that the 'artifact museum' model would have to be very, very carefully chosen: most of the real museums full of artifacts are full of artifacts now considered to have been stolen from their original countries, like the 'Elgin Marbles' that Greece has been trying to get back for most of this century, or the Ishtar Gate glazed tiles/bricks from Babylon that have been in Berlin or almost as long . . .

I think it would have been nice to tie in Archaeology to Oxford University, especially after they got rid of the British Museum ability in GS. I'm pretty sure Oxford was home to the first public museum in England.

I didn't have GS yet. Did Rock Bands do the same thing as Grat Musicians in Civ5? I think this unit came out of a request to introduce a unit that can do 'a concert tour' because Great Musicians in Civ6 can't do it anymore.

I think many people's complaint is the random rock music that performs in the game every time one performs, interrupting other music themes.

 

[SCBrain]

It is pretty silly that museums can only hold one or two things. What is gained, either in playability or in realism's sake, by forcing the player to build a theater square, an amphitheater, an archeological museum, and an archeologist unit, then walking the unit all over the map, to collect three artifacts and make the land productive again? Why couldn't my central library or museum have space for all the great works my people have created? (If unlimited spots for books is too powerful, decreased the power of each great work.)

I don't see why one building, perhaps something the player would have to build if interested in culture, couldn't hold all the cultural artifacts.

 

[Leucarum]

Theming is not a mechanic I am super-fond of. For any set of great works, there is an optimum arrangement. It's not like the player is making choices with trade-offs. If it is in civ7 - What could be much cooler is that rather than the theming turbocharging all yields, let different types of art/artefacts produce different benefits when themed. An obvious example could be Religious art generating some faith when themed. Then make most art/artefacts have a couple of subtypes (e.g. realist and religious) and let players choose how they theme them.

As a silly spitball... Artefacts could maybe be themed by era or owner - maybe give a relations modifier from all being the same owner but a "reclaim our artefacts" CB

 

[SCBrain]

Maybe certain civs or certain wonders could have increased theming bonuses, or make the artifacts more valuable, but every time I see a great person who has to sit in a jungle because there's no place to "put his music" or "store her book" - I just get frustrated.

 

[Leucarum]

Maybe certain civs or certain wonders could have increased theming bonuses, or make the artifacts more valuable, but every time I see a great person who has to sit in a jungle because there's no place to "put his music" or "store her book" - I just get frustrated.

You must love games with Peter or Mvemba...

 

[jsciv69]

I didn't have GS yet. Did Rock Bands do the same thing as Grat Musicians in Civ5? I think this unit came out of a request to introduce a unit that can do 'a concert tour' because Great Musicians in Civ6 can't do it anymore.

The difference is. The Great Musician is Civ V required Open Borders to enter a rival Civ. Rock Band Units ignore Borders. And the Rock Band could return tourism boosts to the sending Civ. That last part makes little sense. Tourism going to the Civ that hosts the Band should get the tourism. Or at least a good share of it. And the sending Civ should get Gold bonuses from the performances. That would be more reasonable in my view.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The difference is. The Great Musician is Civ V required Open Borders to enter a rival Civ. Rock Band Units ignore Borders. And the Rock Band could return tourism boosts to the sending Civ. That last part makes little sense. Tourism going to the Civ that hosts the Band should get the tourism. Or at least a good share of it. And the sending Civ should get Gold bonuses from the performances. That would be more reasonable in my view.

Shouldn't it be the other way around?
I'm thinking along the lines of if you send someone like The Beatles to perform, wouldn't people from that civilization want to go visit the home of The Beatles? I do think the civilization that hosts the concert should gain gold.

 

[Zegangani]

I think both Civs should get Culture and Gold. Both Civs make financial profit from it, the sending Civ will get more Culture from the Band the more it performs, and the hosting Civ will get culturally influenced by the Band, means getting some culture from it, but less than the sending Civ.

But I think it would be more optimal if there was a Culture Pressure/Diffusion Mechanic, where the Sending Civ would have more cultural influence over the Hosting Civ (which would still get Culture and Gold).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think both Civs should get Culture and Gold. Both Civs make financial profit from it, the sending Civ will get more Culture from the Band the more it performs, and the hosting Civ will get culturally influenced by the Band, means getting some culture from it, but less than the sending Civ.

But I think it would be more optimal if there was a Culture Pressure/Diffusion Mechanic, where the Sending Civ would have more cultural influence over the Hosting Civ (which would still get Culture and Gold).

That could go back to my idea of tying Broadcast Centers to Rock Bands. Maybe the sending civ can only generate gold and tourism from performances through each Broadcast Center they build. Maybe even more yields in a city where the Rock Band was purchased acting like a home city.

Of course the hosting civ would generate culture and gold in general.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

The difference is. The Great Musician is Civ V required Open Borders to enter a rival Civ. Rock Band Units ignore Borders. And the Rock Band could return tourism boosts to the sending Civ. That last part makes little sense. Tourism going to the Civ that hosts the Band should get the tourism. Or at least a good share of it. And the sending Civ should get Gold bonuses from the performances. That would be more reasonable in my view.

Rockbands (or Entertainers) did NOT actually adds tourisms to their respective home Civ. actually an inverse effect. Personally I did join Kylie Minogue concert tour TWICE (2008 and 2011) in Bangkok. I've met foreign audiences from various countries (I've got a seat right next to a Phillipino audience, and did have a drink with Americans before a show actually starts), actually more than those in home countries (She isn't quite a big name here even in her heyday but she did actually has her fanbase here. Actually my alias 'Nekophrodite' originated from Aphrodite concert in 2011 which I attend myself).

'Culture Exports' that induces tourism to the Civ of origin were any kind of motion pictures (movies, and later animated shows. first in Cinemas/Theaters/Kino ("Кино" A slavic term that refers to the same facility that provides movie playing services to massed audiences, the term is derived from Greek term 'κίνησις' ('Kinesis' (movement/motion)) made possible with Wireless Telecommunications (originally Radio and TV). Such phenomenon became evenmore intense with Color TV Revolutions in 70s-80s. With this 'Culture Wars' were waged between AT LEAST Three camps: Americans (Predominantly with Hollywood and American Pops), Japanese (Largely with TV Shows particularly Animes and Tokusatsu, with Toei Company being the biggest players in this industry), and 'Chinese' (which work in 'clusters' between Hongkong, Taiwan and Mainland China. With Action packed movies and TV dramas particularly those of Wuxia genre). In some decade Japan and China has upper hand over the Americans (Particularly in 70-90s where American shows were not really successful nor recognized in Hongkong, Japan, and elsewhere in Asia), In 2010s however the balance shifted back in American favors where Asian childrens and teens had recognized characters from either Disney (Since Frozen, where Elsa effectively replaced Japanese Magical Anime Girls of 90s. While in 90s every kids in Asia, regardless of gender, recognizes Sailor Moon series. Today none of these Shojos are anywhere that successful and even Japanese girls knew Elsa better than so many names of their native Shojo heroines), DC Comics, Marvels, as well as other Hollywoods and less of Toei heroes. Similiar ironic examples also was of that--Back in 90s, 'Chinese' (Actually Hongkong and Taiwanese) Wuxia TV plays are a TV3 big hit in Thailand. Everyone, kids, teens, and adults, recognize Bao Wenzheng (包文正) (เปาบุ้นจิ้น) TV Show made by CTS Featuring Kenny Ho as Zhan Zhao (จั่นเจา). In 2010s however. Chinese TV Netword instead import Lakorns particularly those aired on TV3. The same network that imported those 'Chinese' TV Dramas two decades earlier.
Televisations of motion pictures in these fashions did indeed created cults of fans that eventually tourist attractions made after TV Shows came to be. in the US of A, even Smithsonian Museum did exhibit life-sized X-Wing Fighter (an iconic cosmofighter from Star Wars universe)

Likewise. Kure Yamato Museum in Japan which were converted from a shipyard that IJN Yamato was made not only exhibit WW2 relics including salvaged pieces from the IJN Yamato wreck. but also exhibit a section dedicated for a big hit Anime named Space Battleship Yamato (Which dedicated much to its in-lore designer --Leiji Matsumoto)
https://ourstarblazers.com/vault/370/

Also in Japan. JR did have Steamer train ride modelled after Galaxy Express 999 Animated shows. Also the famous 70s works by Leiji Matsumoto.

Likewise Chinese and Koreans did turn their TV shows exports into tourism inductions as well.

I'm not yet talking about Disneyland and rival theme parks made and funded by rival studios, and even Toei Company did build their own Theme Park as well!!!!!!!

In truth. Entertainers (Pop stars, Rockbands, did VERY little to induce tourism to home Civ, there's indeed very rare instances. particularly Las Vegas did have Elvis impersonator sections in addition to Casinoes and Cabarets.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Rockbands (or Entertainers) did NOT actually adds tourisms to their respective home Civ. actually an inverse effect.

I think the primary thing behind the design of the Rock Bands was the British Invasion of the 60s where bands like The Beatles and the Rolling Stones became so popular in the U.S. that other parts of British culture also caught on.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Funny thing, in the Real World, when you have too many books, you build a Bigger Library. Having a 'spare' Great Work should be a trigger that allows you to invest in expanding or Upgrading a LIbrary, Museum, Gallery of whatever kind fits to house the Great Work.

In fact, I'd love to see almost all the Buildings and Improvements be Upgradable. You should be constantly 'improving' your Cities, and have good reasons for doing so. And every building should be replaceable if it is no longer applicable in your Civ: center city Barracks get torn down and replaced by large Maneuver Areas outside of town when the relevant military Unit changes from a 1000-man Royal Bodyguard to a 15,000 man armored division with 3000 vehicles. The little Scribal Library of 600 BCE is not the same as Oxford's Bodleian or the Civic libraries of cities the size of London or New York.
Oh, and Blinding Flash: ALL Universities have libraries, some of them (Bodleian again) are World Class and many of them housing Great Works. Let me rephrase that: Most of them house Great Works, and a great percentage of Grat Works of Writing are at Universities.

And, of course, every type of building should have some kind of Wonder as the Apex of that building type: the Library of Congress or British Museum Library for libraries, the Louvre for Art Museums, La Scala or The Met for Opera Houses, etc.

Years ago, you described something in the "What do you want from an Economic Victory?" thread, about specialist slots and specialists being more of the bread and butter of productivity. A synthesis of that and this has occurred to me.

Productivity can be decoupled from population if we make much stronger slots than tiles which have upper limits in availability, which the city will then pursue to have. The population of the city can be large, growing crazy fast like in Humankind even, but our design can still place control over how the -city- develops from that if we need to make slots for them. Employment slots. The best slots will be specialist slots.

A city uses its infrastructural budget, roughly the equivalent to Worker/Builder output, to renovate and spread the districts of the city, for one; but also, if desired, to build additional structures to serve larger populations. And, the key to not just making a dozen libraries if they're the most "efficient" building, is that the library will do most of its thing with an employment slot. The structures will only catch up to population, not spin Hammers into exponential development.

Actually, I don't think *libraries* should have employments, or at least it shouldn't be Scientists going here. But it could help research. Specialists and great people points are further tokens of a particular structure's raw power.

I also have long been bothered by the issue of how new cities always take just as long to grow no matter when they're settled. I think the solution to that is what you say here. The reason the slowness seems unreal, in my head, is that new technology and the supply of better, and prefabricated, resources should mean the city can make things faster, and also it should have more efficient infrastructure to make. So, for example, instead of a classical era design of a harbor we have a harbor that you can make faster, or a workshop. But also, we have a modern workshop, and a modern Granary, that do the thing but -more- / faster. You can't make the old Granary with the new one, but you have the new one.
Old cities with old Granaries can renovate to new Granaries but the upgrade cost compared to the gain is a decision. Even if making the new Granary is always worth it and of course the original Granary was worth it too, the upgrade cost can and should be individual not formulaic. That is to say, we can make the upgrade cost have a bit of a premium over just subtracting the costs, indicating some amount of uncapitalized destruction going on.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

@HorseshoeHermit, I think we are both circling the same ideas on City Development.

I believed back then, and now, that the Population has to be divided into them that works the land, which for most of history was the huge majority of the population, and them that works in the city, with a certain degree of 'specialized' skills and training.
Keeping it simple, the Population Points we all know and 'love' in Civ would be the bulk of the population that works the land around the city - the farmers, herders, miners, etc that feed the city with food and materials.
In addition to those Points, though, there is a separate group, until the Industrial Age and later much, much smaller, which uses many of those materials to fabricate other goods, and ideas, and form the basis for what the sociological historians call Urbanization and Civilization.

I do think that virtually every Building in the city could have a Specialist Slot, or more than one. What benefits they give would depend on the Building basically, but also could depend on the formal Training/Education available for those Specialists, and that could depend on other Buildlings in the city (Technical College, University, School, etc) OR the Social/Civic choices made: Guilds immediately spring to mind as a Social/Economic institution that augmented and regulated training and skills among a large number of Crafts and manufacturing in the Medieval (European) City.

Even the city walls could have a Specialist slot - filling it would be what gives the city defenses a Ranged Factor, because somebody has to man the catapults, cannon, wall guns or pour the boiling oil.

What massively speeds up early development of a city and its infrastructure are the changes and improvements in Tools: there is an absolutely enormous difference in the amount of time required to clear a field with stone tools and axes and with iron or steel tools, and construction with virtually all kinds of materials: woods, stone, brick, etc, gets fundamentally faster with metal tools, and then with Power Tools in the 20th century.

Humankind shows the faster City Development by having Techs in the late game that allow a new city to be built with all the existing Infrastructure already constructed in it. Since that game has about twice as many Buildings and Infrastructures available as Civ VI does, that's a simply massive change - new cities may, in fact, be more productive than a city that's been around for several thousand years, simply because you rarely have time to build all the structures available in a normal game.

That's a mechanic that should be examined further, though, because it points to an in-game solution of sorts to tfhe slow later city development that has been embedded in Civ for as far back as I can remember.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I think the primary thing behind the design of the Rock Bands was the British Invasion of the 60s where bands like The Beatles and the Rolling Stones became so popular in the U.S. that other parts of British culture also caught on.

That was the World Phenomenon. This compelled American music industry to shift towards Rock bands. Actually i can't really figure out what came first? The Beatles big hit in America or Elvis Prestley rose to fame. But this set the tones of Atlantic rivalties in music industry that lasts even today. I'm sure that when Jazz was made famous by Radio and Vinyl Revolution in mid 1920 or 1930s, the world was shocked. At that moment, Continental Americas (Not just USA, but also Latin American countries) did 'export' their musics extensively either in rival fashions or working in tandem--Both made use of Big Bands settings, one 'Cool culture' entertainer at the very center stage--usually of Italian ancestry (Think of The Rat Pack) , a team of (usually) female dancers (some even with Cabaret outfits), Up north there are Jazz evolved into Cool, to the south, there are Cha Cha Cha and Samba. Europe was compelled to either raise a cultural wall or forge 'their localized Jazz'. When The Beatles came to be in a generation after, it did shook American entertainment industry significantly... I'm not sure that was a moment where Cool culture Big Band Jazz already in decline or the beginning of it. Both of these Atlantic rivalties were entlrely Private sectors competitions.

In Asia however, cultural warfare runs on taxpayers money, it is a respective affairs especially in case of Korea and later Japanese reactions that followed with Jap Festivals in many Asian countries. In the same day or following day after Aphrodite concert in 2011, there were Japan Festivals which Anisong entertainers like Mizuki Ichiro did host a concert in Bangkok which I didn't attend, it's not just Aniki show but Ohba Kenji did join the festivals not because of Kill Bill in 2003-2004 but because of Toei TV Shows (Particularly Space Sheriff Gavan. which did leave a big trace in Thai comtemporary cultures in 80s). Now K-Pop did significant efffects to audiences in Europe and Americas particulalry amongs young women to the point that they 'admire BTS band members' (I'm not sure if female K-Pop girlgigs did affect white boys as well???).

 

[jsciv69]

City Zone Of Control
This is one feature that needs to go. Nothing is more irritating than seeing some area to settle. Only to see that Red hue rendering that land is off-limits. or the potential loss of loyalty indicated by a negative number. it would be nice to return to the days of Civ III. Where any piece of land not occupied by a rival Civ or City-State is fair game. In Civ III we could even settle a city within our own territory. So I think we've had enough of the hated zone of control.

 

[Evie]

Oh, yes, the nice days of the AI just randomly settling in the middle of my cities because they found one lonesome tile that hadn't quite been claimed yet.

Thanks but no thanks.

 

[Leucarum]

Oh, yes, the nice days of the AI just randomly settling in the middle of my cities because they found one lonesome tile that hadn't quite been claimed yet.

Thanks but no thanks.

100% - loyalty pressure is probably the best mechanic introduced into Civ6 IMO

 

[Zegangani]

100% - loyalty pressure is probably the best mechanic introduced into Civ6 IMO

Can you elaborate more on why you think it's perhaps the best Mechanic in Civ6?

I like the Loyalty System, but I find it's implementation could have been done better. It's the main Feature of the Rise and Fall Expansion (though, it's the Civs and Wonders that sell the DLC, not the Loyalty System, that's even included in GS), but it didn't give me the feeling of the rise and collapse of Civs, mostly because I don't get the fear that if I don't manage my Cities well then the stability of them and my Empire won't just shake but collapse. And the Loyalty Pressure is a good Design choice from a Gameplay perspective, but It's too immersion breaking for me, because I don't get why My City that is a little far from my other Cities and somehow other Civs' Cities around it cause it to flip to them, I mean as far as I know Loyalty hasn't anything to do with Cultural Pressure, but if I settle a City 15 tiles away from any other cities it doesn't flip or turn into a Free City. Though, it really makes Conquest challenging and encourages for strategic and tactical thinking (using Victor for example). And it's a nice way to represent rebelling Cities with Free Cities that you don't have control on once they turn into such.

So, I have mixed feelings about it, I like it but I wouldn't mind if Civ7 won't include it, except if they improve a lot on it, and perhaps also make actual Civs to fall and rise once they have too much cities that are rebelling/have low stability.

 

[Leucarum]

Can you elaborate more on why you think it's perhaps the best Mechanic in Civ6?

I like the Loyalty System, but I find it's implementation could have been done better. It's the main Feature of the Rise and Fall Expansion (though, it's the Civs and Wonders that sell the DLC, not the Loyalty System, that's even included in GS), but it didn't give me the feeling of the rise and collapse of Civs, mostly because I don't get the fear that if I don't manage my Cities well then the stability of them and my Empire won't just shake but collapse. And the Loyalty Pressure is a good Design choice from a Gameplay perspective, but It's too immersion breaking for me, because I don't get why My City that is a little far from my other Cities and somehow other Civs' Cities around it cause it to flip to them, I mean as far as I know Loyalty hasn't anything to do with Cultural Pressure, but if I settle a City 15 tiles away from any other cities it doesn't flip or turn into a Free City. Though, it really makes Conquest challenging and encourages for strategic and tactical thinking (using Victor for example). And it's a nice way to represent rebelling Cities with Free Cities that you don't have control on once they turn into such.

So, I have mixed feelings about it, I like it but I wouldn't mind if Civ7 won't include it, except if they improve a lot on it, and perhaps also make actual Civs to fall and rise once they have too much cities that are rebelling/have low stability.

So there are more immersive ways you could solve the problem of AI settling in suicidally dumb places, forcing players to be careful forward settling and allowing peaceful conquest of cities... But I'm not in the group who wants civ to be a perfect simulation of world history. I like simple solutions which create interesting gameplay. While there are other ways to do it loyalty solves all three problems, creates choices for the player and adds the bare minimum of complexity. That makes it a winner for me.