Feedback: Espionage

[Azoth]

What it says on the tin. A thread for discussing the espionage system in History Rewritten.

For reference, a thorough explanation of the espionage system in Beyond the Sword can be found in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=247719

 

[Azoth]

Before attempting a third draft of Great People abilities, I wanted to finish working through the changes to espionage I proposed earlier, which have slowly grown into a rework of most espionage buildings, plus trade and war weariness buildings. Here's what I've been thinking:

In Beyond the Sword, every city can produce +22 and +100%, and employ up to seven spy specialists, between the Courthouse, Jail, Security Bureau, and Intelligence Agency. An additional +25% is available at Nationhood civic, and with Castles until they obsolete at Economics. Scotland Yard, built by Great Spies, provides +100%. These values are higher than their research equivalents; combined with certain mission discounts, a spy economy is a strong alternative to a research economy late in the game. On reflection, I don't think this is a bad thing. Espionage can only keep you even with your rivals, never ahead, and it carries diplomatic penalties. I just think that the bonuses are concentrated in too few buildings, some of which - Security Bureaus and Intelligence Agencies - are poor design choices, as they're hardly present in every city. Here's how we can fix this:

1. Rename various buildings. Intelligence Agencies can only be built by Great Spies. Security Bureau are National Wonders. A new building, the Constabulary, and the old Bunker take their place as mainline espionage buildings. Scotland Yard is cut. (The Constabulary can alternately be named the Police Station.) The current Scotland Yard graphics seem perfectly adequate for a Constabulary as Scotland Yard is, indeed, a police headquarters.

2. Treat raw espionage much like raw culture, and distribute it among a wide selection of buildings. Over the ages, as civilization grows more complex and states begin to collect ever more information, the raw espionage produced by cities rises:

Set +1 for: Castle, Tavern, Post Office, Bank, Customs House, Observatory, Civic Square, Sewer, Hospital, Laboratory, Broadcast Tower, Airport, Bomb Shelter
Set +2 for: Courthouse, Seasonal Palace, Jail, Armoury, Constabulary, Bunker
Set +4 for: Palace, Military Academy, Stock Exchange

3. Add spy slots to buildings where spies would be POSTED. Add espionage modifiers to buildings where spies would be HIRED. Give unique spy buildings both bonuses, plus defense against espionage.

Set 1 spy slot to: Tavern, Post Office, Customs House, Civic Square, Sewer
Set +25% to: Castle, Jail, Constabulary, Bunker
Intelligence Agency (may be built by Great Spy): +50%, 2 spy slots, +50% defense against espionage
Security Bureau (National Wonder, requires X Constabulary): +100%, 2 spy slots, +50% defense against espionage

(Continued in Next Post)

 

[Azoth]

4. Tie up all loose ends.

TRADE BUILDINGS: Castles are now overburdened with bonuses. The bonus trade route can move to the Post Office. The Post Office's trade route yield bonus can then move to the Stables.

MAINTENANCE BUILDINGS: Courthouses and Constabularies should be the new maintenance reduction buildings. The war weariness reduction bonus can thus be returned to Jails. The position of Courthouses and Jails should also be switched as (a) courts are the older institution, with jails properly seen as public prisons not private dungeons (b) the early game needs a maintenance reduction building.

NAVAL BUILDINGS: Fishermen don't need Lighthouses to fish, just Harbours to store their boats; thus, +1 food on sea tiles moves to the Harbour. Lighthouses promote trade whereas Customs Houses tax it; thus, the bonus trade route moves to the Lighthouse. Shipyards allow for the construction and repair of ever larger trade vessels; thus +50% trade route yield moves there.

WONDERS: The National Monument moves to the Ancient Era, to accommodate Intelligence Agencies at Nationalism, and because many corresponding Unique Wonders (The Sphinx, The Ishtar Gate, etc.) are quite ancient. The espionage bonus on the Porcelain Tower is reduced, as it was too strong, as noted by others.

MISCELLANEOUS: With the Bunker now an espionage building, the Bomb Shelter assumes its old functions. Also, as cinemas do not host live artists, but broadcast stations do, 2 artist slots have been reassigned to the later, and +1 happiness per 10% culture to the former. Finally, Barilla moves to Machine Tools (machine-made pasta revolutionized the industry) to accommodate Constabularies at Sociology.


The full changes are listed below, by era:

Stable (90h/Riding) +25% trade route yield, +10% production from Horse/Elephant, +2XP for Mounted units
Harbour (60h/Shipbuilding) +1 food from water tiles, +1 health from Fish
National Monument* (400h/Record Keeping) -25% war weariness in all cities [requires Kiln]

Lighthouse (80h/Navigation) +1 trade route, +1 health from Whale
Courthouse (100h/Law) +2 espionage, -25% maintenance
Castle (100h/Architecture) +1 culture, +1 espionage, +25% espionage, +50% defense [requires Walls]
Seasonal Palace* (200h) +4 culture, +2 espionage, reduces maintenance in nearby cities [requires X Castles]
Shipyard (100h/Artisanry) +50% trade route yield, +2XP for Naval units [requires Harbour]

Tavern (120h/Patronage) +1 espionage, +25% trade route yield, +1 happy from Coffee/Tea/Wine/Tobacco, 1 spy slot
Post Office (100h/Paper) +1 espionage, +1 trade route, 1 spy slot
Bank (200h/Finance) +1 espionage, +50% wealth
Military Academy* (400h/Logistics) +4 espionage, +4XP and Leadership promotion for all units [requires L6 unit]
Jail (150h/Constitution) +2 espionage, +25% espionage, -25% war weariness

Customs House (150h/Charter) +1 espionage, +50% foreign trade route yield, +1 health from Shellfish/Crab, 1 spy slot [requires Harbour]
Observatory (250h/Optics) +1 espionage, +25% research, 1 scientist slot
Civic Square (180h/Urban Planning) +1 espionage, +2 culture, +25% GPP, +10% Great General emergence, 1 spy slot
Intelligence Agency (Great Spy/Nationalism) +50% espionage, 2 spy slots, +50% defense against espionage
Stock Exchange* (600h/Corporation) +4 espionage, +100% wealth, 3 merchant slots [requires X Banks]
Sewer (200h/Sanitation) +1 espionage, +2 health, +1 population, 1 spy slot
Armory (Great General/Replaceable Parts) +1 culture, +2 espionage, +50% military unit production
Drydock (200h/Hydraulics) -1 health, +4XP for Naval Units, +50% Naval unit production [requires Shipyard]
Hospital (200h/Biology) +1 espionage, +3 health, units heal +10% damage
Constabulary (180h/Sociology) +2 espionage, +25% espionage, -25% maintenance [requires Courthouse]

Laboratory (300h/Electricity) +1 espionage, -1 health, +25% research, +50% spaceship production, 2 scientist slots [requires Observatory]
Cinema (200h/Film) +1 happiness, +25% culture, +1 happiness from Hit Movies, +1 happiness per 10% culture
Bunker (120h/Explosives) +2 espionage, +25% espionage, +50% defense against espionage
Broadcast Tower (220h/Radio) +1 espionage, +25% culture, -25% war wariness, +1 happiness from Hit Single, 2 artist slots
Security Bureau* (400h/Radio) +100% espionage, 2 spy slots, +50% defense against espionage [requires X Constabulary]

Airport (320h/Aviation) +1 espionage, -1 health, +1 trade route, +4XP for Air units, +4 Air unit capacity
Bomb Shelter (100h/Atomic Physics) +1 espionage, -50% damage from Air units, -50% damage from Nukes

*National Wonder

 

[The_Athenian]

Espionage & Dissent

Should espionage influence dissent & unhappiness?

I suggest that yes it should. Would it be possible to have increasing your Espionage rate reduce dissent but increase unhappiness?

The idea is that as an empire grows dissent increases, empires have a choice as to whether to increase domestic spying (essentially monitoring small groups that could cause trouble) or to maintain some level of freedom & thus happiness for it's people. Increasing your espionage rate to say 20% should reduce dissent in your cities by about the same amount.

However, every 10% increase in dissent could create +1 unhappiness in each city.

Gamewise this would mean that you would need to more carefully balance your dissent, espionage and happiness; carefully managing them as your empire expands. The benefit of this is that it also prevents a player from just dumping everything they have into spying, either before tech advances in the early game or as an overall strategy in the late game.

So what do you think…does this sound like a reasonable proposal?

**We might not want to have any of this kick in until Espionage reaches 30%, that way the first 20% of espionage spending is always for overseas. If a nation begins to spend more than that, only then does it begin to reduce dissent & cause unhappiness, due to the massive increase in funding for their spy agency which inevitably leads to it spreading its tentacles domestically.

 

[Xyth]

Espionage was originally going to be part of the dissent system, but I cut it. Partly because I didn't want the system to be excessively complex, and partly there's very little of the espionage system that is moddable. I decided tying in city culture was the much more important objective. I'm too busy trying to get 1.22 released to give it any serious thought at the moment, but I'm not adverse at having another look in the future.

 

[snarf137]

(could someone delete this post? sorry, posted in the wrong section!)

 

[Xyth]

I scrapped the BUG Espionage Advisor entirely. It did things in a needlessly complicated fashion. This new one is based on Platyping's, with a bunch of tweaks and additions by me. Most changes should be evident from the picture but a few notes:

• Now shows if you have any Spies stationed in a city.
• A few missions have been renamed but are otherwise work the same. Added tooltips to explain what each mission does with more detail.
• I might adjust mission costs and difficulties a bit, but overall there's really not much I can do to change or expand the espionage system.
• One new passive mission added: "See Espionage", which lets you see the rival civ's espionage spending against you per turn and their mission cost modifier. Should reduce some of the guesswork when assigning weights.
• The 'Go to City' button takes you to where the selected city is on the map. Not tied to espionage per se, but thought it would be useful to have a way of locating specific foreign cities.
• The civs in that picture have the wrong leaders because I've added a new English leader (Aelfred) and that's offset them all.

 

[Leoreth]

Looks great, I might steal it later.

Another idea I had when looking at this is to autoselect a Spy when you use the go to city option and there is one.

 

[isenchine]

Is it HR specific?

It looks so great that it could be proposed as a mod component.

 

[Xyth]

Another idea I had when looking at this is to autoselect a Spy when you use the go to city option and there is one.

That's a good idea, will add.

Is it HR specific?

It looks so great that it could be proposed as a mod component.

It would take a little bit of detangling, but it could be made to standalone.

 

[dretnoth]

Hi dint know if it was resolved, bud about that my problem whit spy table where i cannot change the distribution on Spy Points.

I manage notice that happen when the TURN button become red and i visit the spy tab to change distribution. In this state the buttons stuck and they dint do anything how many i try to click them. This lock will stay few turns until i after (i dint know how many turns) i visit the spy page when the turn button is still green and "mysteriously" the buttons works and i can change the distribution settings for spy points.
Dit, anyone else have this experience or i am a collector of rare bugs.


Is possible to make a button for spy wait until you reach 50% action discount? (Sometimes in long games, i forget that i sent a spy and set him sleep.)

 

[Xyth]

Hi dint know if it was resolved, bud about that my problem whit spy table where i cannot change the distribution on Spy Points.

I manage notice that happen when the TURN button become red and i visit the spy tab to change distribution. In this state the buttons stuck and they dint do anything how many i try to click them. This lock will stay few turns until i after (i dint know how many turns) i visit the spy page when the turn button is still green and "mysteriously" the buttons works and i can change the distribution settings for spy points.
Dit, anyone else have this experience or i am a collector of rare bugs.

I couldn't replicate this issue, but the new Espionage Advisor coming in 1.24 is a complete replacement, so hopefully you won't see that problem again.

Is possible to make a button for spy wait until you reach 50% action discount? (Sometimes in long games, i forget that i sent a spy and set him sleep.)

Good idea, I'll look into it.