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Feedback: Tech Tree

Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Jul 16, 2011.

  1. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Where should Defensive Pacts and Permanent Alliances be unlocked? I've always been a bit unsure about these two.
     
  2. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    I'd actually say late Industrial or early Global era (WWI-period techs) for Defensive Pacts.

    I'm not sure about Permanent Alliances. Do they even work properly in HR? I think the last time I had one form (granted this was many versions ago), the game crashed.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I'd argue for the late Renaissance, thinking of the alliance systems around the 30 years and 7 years wars and the wars of the Spanish and Austrian succession.
     
  4. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I've attached a PDF of how the 1.24 tech tree looks, barring any last minute changes. Ended up spending a lot more time on this than I intended, but I'm pleased with the result. Note that the focus of this latest review was the Ancient Era through to the Renaissance Era; other than some reassignment of Corporation/Syndicate requirements, the later eras haven't changed at all. Some notes:


    • I decided to remove/merge the 'starting' tech arrangement and revert to civs having a choice of 7 starting techs, rather than just 4. The removed techs are Hunting, Ceremonial Burial, Divination, and Seafaring. None of these were particularly essential.

    • Temples and Great Temples no longer have tech requirements. Neither do any of the Worship tenets, except Apostasy. Unlocking 'penalty options' didn't feel interesting and just cluttered up the early eras. Much better distribution of other tenets as a result.

    • Oratory has reverted back to Oral Tradition.

    • Astronomy has been renamed Astrology. I experimented with adding an Astronomy tech to the Renaissance, but it just didn't work. Optics -> Astronomy -> Physics is a cool progression, but there's just not enough for them all to unlock. Also made the flow of the Renaissance tree too convoluted.

    • I repurposed Property for the late Classical Era, Inheritance takes its place in the Ancient Era. I think this works much better. Property as a tech now reflects the emergence of private ownership, land sales, and property law. The classical tech removed to accomodate this was Milling.

    • I spent more time on the Medieval Era than any other part of the tree, even though the changes may not look that extensive. It's a really hard section to get right as it's where the tree starts needing to 'cross over' a lot, but many of the techs don't link to each other all that well. Tried and tested many different configurations, before settling on this. Not perfect, but I think it's as close as I'm going to get.

    • I'm still not sure Crop Rotation and Horticulture are the two best tech names to represent the agricultural advances of this era. Haven't yet found a combination I like better. Tempted to have 'Tillage' as the first of the pair though.

    • New Medieval techs are Fortification and Judiciary. Gunpowder and Humanities shift there from the Renaissance. Chivalry is renamed Warrior Code. Charity and Evangelism are removed entirely.

    • These changes greatly improve the spacing between Heavy Footmen, Musketmen, and Riflemen. Previously, the gap was too long between the first pair, and too short between the latter pair. The gap between Trebuchet and Bombards has reduced as well, which is not ideal, but I can live with it. I might redesign the Bombard slightly to compensate for this.

    • I'm much happier with the Renaissance Era now, progression is much more sensible than it was. Logistics and Constitution have moved there from the Medieval Era. Geography has replaced Meteorology. Sociology is back, replacing Insurance. Academia and Combined Arms are new. Corporation and Jurisprudence are removed.

    • This review reminds me that I really need to add more Renaissance and Industrial Wonders. A job for 1.25.

    • I haven't adjusted Great People tech preferences yet, so the chart will be missing or have inappropriate symbols on some techs.
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    Looks quite interesting. I'm especially looking forward to seeing which civs get which of the new starting techs.

    Also, I'm wondering what the "Abattoir" entry under Refrigeration is. Seems ominous…
     
  6. Little Faith

    Little Faith Warlord

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    Abattoir is just a fancy word for slaughterhouse. I guess Xyth reckons that refrigeration makes industrial scale meat processing economically feasible.
     
  7. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    Yes, I was mostly being facetious. I do wonder what its actual effect is, though.
     
  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Not sure if I should be happy about this, I've finally come to terms with the arrangement in my version of your tree, but now there are so many good ideas again that I'm starting to reconsider some of my choices :)

    Some comments:
    - what's the difference between Geography and Cartography? Looks like you sacrificed Meteorology to get Geography in there, but in the light of your Astronomy conundrum you could also put Astronomy in its place (this was my choice) without really changing any effects.
    - your challenges with the medieval period sound all too familiar, it's just so hard to arrange stuff in a way that makes sense assuming the late classical and early Renaissance tiers are set. Some of what you have there looks preferable to what I could come up with, I'm tempted to try to incorporate some of them.
    - distance between Trebuchet and Bombard is also something I ran into. This led me to introduce a Fortification tech (basically the same as yours) and move Trebuchets there. Is a separate Siegecraft tech really needed with Fortification?
    - as for Renaissance and Industrial wonders, some people in the DoC community have compiled a wonder suggestions masterpost you are of course invited to leaf through for ideas for wonders and effects (same for stuff that is already in DoC). But I'm also curious what you will come up with because I'd like to fill these periods as well.
     
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  9. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    The Abattoir is a new Industrial building that borrows its effects from the Smokehouse (which has been removed) and the Supermarket (which has been redesigned slightly). The Abattoir stores 25% food after growth, allows 1 doctor, and grants +1 health from Cattle/Pig/Sheep/Deer. I've been striving to distribute growth bonuses more appropriately, and this is part of that. Abattoirs were a really important innovation; previously animals were just slaughtered in the streets, leading to all sorts of health issues.

    Your adaptions and feedback from DoC players in that thread certainly helped guide the changes I've made, so technically it's all your fault! Hehe.

    Cartography is mapping where places are, Geography is studying the physical nature of the earth's surface and atmosphere – what makes places the way they are. Weather, tides, trade winds, the water cycle, distribution of soil and vegetation, advances in surveying and navigation, etc. It's basically an expanded version of the previous Meteorology tech, but without the undesirable forecasting connotation.

    That's what I tried. Astronomy makes sense as a prerequisite for Physics, but not Hydraulics or Sociology. Geography leads readily to all three and this makes the whole era so much less convoluted.

    I'm also not convinced that a dedicated Astronomy tech is needed in the Renaissance era. A case could just as readily be made for having it in the Medieval era, due to the significant astronomical discoveries in the Islamic world at that time. The telescope made the discoveries of Galileo and Kepler possible, and that is represented by Optics. It leads to Scientific Method, and then Physics, which covers the development of the field really well already, in my opinion.

    In theory no, but in practice the progression works so well: (Steel Working + Architecture) -> Fortification (+ Machinery) -> Siegecraft (+ Education) -> Gunpowder. Matches history for the most part too. I'll figure something out.

    I saw that thread, have bookmarked it for when the time comes.
     
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  10. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    Ah, I hadn't noticed the removal of the Smokehouse. And I always did think that Supermarket was a bit late for the livestock health bonuses. Where did the bonuses for Salt and Spices go, though?

    Also, upon examining the chart further, I have to wonder if there is a specific reason to have the Discipline tenet unlocked by Aesthetics? Thematically, it would seem to make more sense on Steel Working.
     
  11. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Salt is now associated with the Tannery (necessary for curing hides), and Spice with the Grocer.

    I don't want it to be entirely about martial discipline. Can also be about the discipline required by monks, scholars, and artists. The Stadium association has been removed for 1.24.
     
  12. SpartanU

    SpartanU Chieftain

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    Here are some suggestions for tech quotes that I found:

    Academia:
    Spoiler :
    “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.”
    Aristotle

    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/aristotle100584.html?src=t_education


    Combined Arms:
    Spoiler :

    “Strike to win, and only when success is certain; if it isn’t, then do not strike.”
    General Vo Nguyen Giap

    http://tuoitrenews.vn/society/13947/general-vo-nguyen-giaps-immortal-sayings


    Fortification:
    Spoiler :

    “Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity."
    General George S. Patton, Jr.

    http://www.generalpatton.com/quotes/


    Also I found an error in the Civilopedia for the Steam Engine's descriptions; it says TXT_KEY_TECH_STEAM_ENGINE_PEDIA
     
  13. SpartanU

    SpartanU Chieftain

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    Any thoughts on making Aviation require Radio? Or perhaps requiring Aviation and Radio to build airports?
     
  14. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Makes sense. I'll change it for the next release.
     

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