Feedback: Tech Tree

[Xyth]

Record Keeping
I always found this tech to be a bit awkward in relation to Writing. The icon suggests it includes non-writing systems like Inca qipu, but not necessarily so. The Writing tech would then represent a more widespread or standardized writing proficiency?

It's definitely better than BtS's Writing and Alphabet combination, because it's more inclusive. Still the name Record Keeping seems a bit awkward and together with the icon specifically designed to include qipu, which are a very unique historical case. Most other forms of early record keeping involved some kind of (maybe symbolic) writing.

The icon is an ancient Chinese tally bone. With the apparent exception of the Egyptians, every culture that developed their own writing system first invented systems for managing economic transactions. Quipu is a famous example, but there are many others. Tally sticks in Northern Europe, China, and parts of Africa. Clay tokens in Mesopotamia and India. Clay and wax seals in Bronze Age cultures all around the Mediterranean. Actual writing, with words and syntax, evolved from these systems and allowed other uses, notably literature. That's what I intend the Record Keeping and the Writing techs to represent.

Constitution
End of the Middle Ages seems really early for this technology, also considering what we are used to from BtS. For me, the idea of Constitution includes some sort of limited government and is evocative of the American and French revolutions and the year of 1848. The position of Constitution in HR seems to refer to early English Parliamentarianism and the Magna Carta. While the latter is often referenced as an early precursor to a constitution, it did not really function like we understand constitutions of the modern period and was largely irrelevant to how England was governed. Again, I don't think it's a problem with the tech itself but rather that name and meaning differ.

Parliaments themselves are a medieval institution, so I would simply suggest to rename the tech to Parliament. That leaves us without an actual Constitution tech. I think the tech should exist though. Best I can think of right now is to rename Representation to Constitution instead. That position and the effects fit with the understanding of what Constitution represents as outlined above.

The bottom 2 rows, from Constitution and Evangelism through to Fertiliser and Representation, is the bit of the tree I'm still unhappy with. I reworked it a bit in 1.23, but that era wasn't the primary focus of that review. It's much better than it was, but there are still anachronisms and tenuous connections there, as you've noticed. I plan to review it further at some point.

Insurance
This tech seems to have no real purpose. Besides defensive pacts it has no effect, and that also only has a tenuous connection to insurance. I can only speculate why the tech is there in its current state, with two possible scenarios:

1. you wanted a late Renaissance tech to enable defensive pacts
2. you wanted a commerce oriented late Renaissance tech, but were left without fitting effects

It's a linking tech, there to ensure everything is connected that needs to be at that point in the tree. Defensive Pacts are attached simply so it had something to unlock. It was going to unlock the Mafia as well, but they didn't make the cut for 1.23. This tech is a large part of the reason I'm unhappy with this section of the tech tree.

 

[rsab]

Hi Xyth,

what's going to take place in the new release? the new espionage mechanics, some changes on civics... ?

thanks!

PD: sorry, I posted it in the wrong site... I reformulate the question in in right place

 

[Leoreth]

I just realized I never replied to your answer to my post. That cleared up most of my confusion, looking forward to what you come up with when revisiting the tech tree again.

On another note, have you considered renaming the Renaissance era? Historically speaking, not only is the term problematic because it is very Eurocentric (or less, depending how far you take its criticism), but also because it doesn't really match the time period the label is used for in Civ4.

Renaissance more accurately describes some later techs in the Medieval era, but definitely not everything it currently covers leading up to the industrial era. Some ideas for better names, even though they all have their own problems:
- Enlightenment era (suits the techs better, but also very Eurocentric)
- Exploration era (still Eurocentric)
- Early Modern era (probably most correct historically but potentially confusing, considering colloquial connotations of the word modern, especially because there is no actual modern era)

Don't know what I would prefer. Eurocentrism is probably hard to avoid in a time period where Europe began to assert its power globally.

 

[Xyth]

On another note, have you considered renaming the Renaissance era? Historically speaking, not only is the term problematic because it is very Eurocentric (or less, depending how far you take its criticism), but also because it doesn't really match the time period the label is used for in Civ4.

Renaissance more accurately describes some later techs in the Medieval era, but definitely not everything it currently covers leading up to the industrial era. Some ideas for better names, even though they all have their own problems:
- Enlightenment era (suits the techs better, but also very Eurocentric)
- Exploration era (still Eurocentric)
- Early Modern era (probably most correct historically but potentially confusing, considering colloquial connotations of the word modern, especially because there is no actual modern era)

Don't know what I would prefer. Eurocentrism is probably hard to avoid in a time period where Europe began to assert its power globally.

I've thought about it before but haven't been able to come up with an alternative that I like.

 

[AbsintheRed]

IMO Enlightenment era is the best of these 4 options (including Renaissance, so I would prefer a change)

 

[s.bernbaum]

FWIW, if you are striving for era names that reflect the technologies, Modern is a poor name for any era. I am currently reading Boswell's "Life of Samuel Johnson", which was written in the late 1700s. In their conversations, Boswell and Johnson refer to then current ideas, customs, etc as "modern". Also, there is a now old art type referred to as "Post Modern". So, calling an era Modern really does not convey much meaning.

 

[Nightstar]

Colonial Era?

 

[Xyth]

IMO Enlightenment era is the best of these 4 options (including Renaissance, so I would prefer a change)

Colonial Era?

'Enlightenment Era' doesn't feel right to me, and 'Colonial Era' is too prescriptive. I'll stick with Renaissance for now, despite its flaws.

FWIW, if you are striving for era names that reflect the technologies, Modern is a poor name for any era. I am currently reading Boswell's "Life of Samuel Johnson", which was written in the late 1700s. In their conversations, Boswell and Johnson refer to then current ideas, customs, etc as "modern". Also, there is a now old art type referred to as "Post Modern". So, calling an era Modern really does not convey much meaning.

Yeah, it's an awkward term for sure. The Modern and Future eras in HR have been replaced by the Global Era and the Digital Era, respectively.

 

[citis]

Are you open on proposals?

Spoiler :

NOTE: Renaiscance era is completely reworked. Its changes won't be described below but in a separate section.

Requirements:
-Riding requires only pastorialism.
Reason: Riding should be researchable in parallel with chariots.
-Coinage requires mining.
Reason: Any metal is required to mine coins.
-Gunpowder doesn't require plow.
-Logistics require finance instead of cartography.
Reason: Logistics has to do more about maintainance which is a financial issue.
-Music requires only paper.
Reason: It isn't highly connected with the religious techs evangelism was involved.
-Microbiology requires biology.
-Refrigeration requires electricity, microbiology intead of fertiliser.
Reason: Electricity is required for heat pumps. Microbiology/vaccination/pastorisation justifies the nead for refridgeration.
-Agronomy requires microbiology and horticulture instead of biology.
Reason: Microbiology more suitable than Biology. Agronomy is the evolution of horticulture.
-Socialism requires biology instead of insurance.
Reason: Evolution is central in marxist and product philosophies.
-Healthcare doesn't require socialism
Reason: Deplex health and social concepts.
-Civil rights require socialism.
Reason: Connection with latest social science tech.
-Cement requires hydraulics instead of telephone
Reason: Cement making requires hydraulic systems, not electric systems.
-Control systems require electronics.
Reason: Electronics greatly developped this field.
-Tourism requires flight instead of aviation.
Reason: Flight merged with aviation.
-Semiconductors do not require cement.
-Lasers do not require fission.
-Rocketry requires pneumatics.
Reason: Rocketry requires control of fuel flaw.

Renamings:
-Record keeping renamed to Numbers.
Reason: All primitive writing systems were numbering systems. Number systems preexisted other kinds of writing.
-Plumbing renamed to hydraulics.
Reason: 1) It's the same thing in different language (Latin and greek). 2) It represents all the pneumatic and water systems of alexandrian era like archimedes water clock, justifying its connection to engineering.
-Mathematics to Geometry
Reason: 1) Given the requirements and results it represents geometry. 2) Differentiate from arithmetics that developped indepedently and before mathematics.
-Astronomy to astrology.
Reason: Release the name for modern astronomy.
-Navigation to astrolabe.
Reason: More specific name of a tech instead of a movement.
-Currency to Coinage
Reason: Potential differentiation of coins and paper money.
-Chivalry to Honour
Reason: More universal name that includes both european (chivalry) and far eastern concepts like Japanese warlords.
-Land tenure to vassalage
Reason: More specific and familiar name.
-Crop rotation to plow
Reason: One word name.
-Steam power to thermodynamics.
Reason: One word name, more generic and scientific.
-Feriliser to agronomy.
Reason: More generic and scientific name.
-Labour unions to socialism.
Reason: One word name. Includes marxist and product philosophies and political movements. Wider term than communism.
-Infrastructure to cement.
Reason: Better understanding of the tech in relation to its requirements.
-Space exploration to orbitics.
Reason: One word name. More generic and scientific.
-Mass media to television.
Reason: One word name. Name more consistent in relation to names with previous and next techs.
-Explosives to materials.
Reason: More generic and more suitable name given previous, next techs and what it enables.

Replacements:
-Jurisprudence replaced evangelism.
Reason: Evangelism is too specific to christianity. Juriprudence is a more universal concept that fits the requirements.
-Music replaced constitution.
Reason: Practically, constitution moved later on and music filled the gap. Magna Carta is represented by Jurisprudence
-Microbiology replaced representation and partially feriliser.
Reason: Practically, representation moved to renaiscance where it belongs. Microbiology appeared in industrial era where it belongs.
Microbiology represents vaccination and pastorisation, better than fertiliser.
-Control systems replaced aviation.
Reason: Control systems more suitable for 1) late military techs and 2) the techs former aviation led to. 3) Important tech that needs representation in the tech tree.
-Semiconductors replaced electronics.
Reason: Perfectly fits previous and next techs.

Merges:
-Hunting and leather working as Hunting.
-Carving and mining as Minings.
-Ceremonial burial and ritual as Ritual.
-Fishing, sailing and seafaring: practically Fishing and Sailing merged as Fishing, Seafaring renamed to Sails.
Reason: Ommit first coloumn.
-Flight and aviation as flight.
Reason: Same word in different languages english and french.
-Radio and electronics as electronics.
Reason: Radio is made with electronics.

Switches:
-Coinage and employment
Reason: Coinage has been developped before geometry.
-Gunpowder and logistics
Reason: Gunpowder belongs to medieval era. Logistics belong to renaiscance era.

Renaiscance era:
NOTE: the changes are many, so only important changes are noted here.
-Astronomy replaced metereology, it requires optics and leads to physics.
Reason: Suitable given the requirements and the leadings. Metereology is arguable.
-Hydraulics renamed to hydrodynamics.
Reason: Hydraulics means plumbing which is already present in the tech tree.
-Urban planning moved as requirement of hydrodynamics and requires optics and charter.
Reason: 1) Optics more suitable as requirement than constitution.
2) Urban planning more suitable as requirement of hydrodynamics than corporation and metereology/astronomy.
-Economics require charter. Corporation does not lead to hydrodynamics.
Reason: Economics developped after colonial empires.
-Sanitation removed.
Reason: See below
-Representation entered renaiscance era.
-Jurisprudence, civil liberties and nationhood are in inverse row.
Reason: Casuation and chronology.
-Constitution product of civil liberties.

Icon:
-Calendar took metereology icon, astrology took calendar icon, astronomy took astronomy icon.
Reason: The clouds are suitable for seasons, the stone carvings are suitable for astrology and coustelations suitables for astronomy.
-Microbiology took biology icon
Reason: Cells are suitable more for microbiology
-Biology took evolution icon
Reason: In this tech tree biology represents mainly evolution theory.

Effects:
-Logistics: Reduce unit maintainance by 35%
Reason: That's what logistics are for: Unit maintainance
-Electronics: +1 in hospitals
Reason: Radiological diagnosis devices.[/QUOTE]

 

[Leoreth]

I should probably explain that I recently unleashed the DoC community on your tech tree, so now there is an entire thread worth of feedback on the internal logic of the tree, the relationships of techs with others, and the historical versimilitude of it all. Just have a look if you want to, of course DoC has some different premises than HR but maybe there's a good idea in there.

 

[ales_]

Here is the link, BTW: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=568237.

 

[Xyth]

Are you open on proposals?

Yes, but I haven't got time to review them thoroughly at the moment, sorry. Bit limited for modding time at the moment and my to-do list for 1.24 is still rather long. I will go over it when I can though.

I should probably explain that I recently unleashed the DoC community on your tech tree, so now there is an entire thread worth of feedback on the internal logic of the tree, the relationships of techs with others, and the historical versimilitude of it all. Just have a look if you want to, of course DoC has some different premises than HR but maybe there's a good idea in there.

Here is the link, BTW: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=568237.

Subscribed. Will have a read through and look for ideas to borrow. Probably have to wait till after 1.24 though, or I'll never get it done. Civ 6 announcement was quite the blow to productivity too...

 

[Simon_Jester]

Constitution
End of the Middle Ages seems really early for this technology, also considering what we are used to from BtS. For me, the idea of Constitution includes some sort of limited government and is evocative of the American and French revolutions and the year of 1848. The position of Constitution in HR seems to refer to early English Parliamentarianism and the Magna Carta. While the latter is often referenced as an early precursor to a constitution, it did not really function like we understand constitutions of the modern period and was largely irrelevant to how England was governed. Again, I don't think it's a problem with the tech itself but rather that name and meaning differ.

Parliaments themselves are a medieval institution, so I would simply suggest to rename the tech to Parliament. That leaves us without an actual Constitution tech. I think the tech should exist though. Best I can think of right now is to rename Representation to Constitution instead. That position and the effects fit with the understanding of what Constitution represents as outlined above.

You know... I support this. Though I might choose to name Constitution "Legislature" instead of "Parliament." It's more of a culture-neutral term.

 

[Xyth]

I'm considering disabling tech trading until the Renaissance Era. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Nightstar]

Sounds good to me. I usually disable it entirely; but if only became possible that late, I might turn it on again.

 

[rsab]

The idea sounds interesting to me.

But maybe too much restrictive? What if, in ancient classical and medieval eras, you are enabled to trade with techs only if you adopt a kind of Civic or Tenet? Could this be posible?

The civilization who adopts such a kind of civic or tenet will get a great benefit, so it could have a big penalty associated with.

 

[Xyth]

But maybe too much restrictive? What if, in ancient classical and medieval eras, you are enabled to trade with techs only if you adopt a kind of Civic or Tenet? Could this be posible?.

Not possible.

 

[Leoreth]

I'm considering disabling tech trading until the Renaissance Era. Any thoughts on this?

What is your rationale behind this? Realism?

In general I also dislike the tech trade mechanic from a historical perspective. However, I think it's the most important way of interacting with other civilizations. I feel that diplomacy becomes rather hollow if you don't need it to trade techs.

 

[Xyth]

What is your rationale behind this? Realism?

In general I also dislike the tech trade mechanic from a historical perspective. However, I think it's the most important way of interacting with other civilizations. I feel that diplomacy becomes rather hollow if you don't need it to trade techs.

Realism, to slow progression a bit, and to 'ramp up' the value/importance of diplomacy as the game goes on. It'll be enabled by Academia, a new Renaissance tech.

 

[Leoreth]

Personally I'd be worried that diplomacy is uninteresting until that point, although I have to admit that the idea sounds interesting.