Feedback: Tech Tree

[Howard Mahler]

Fishing Nets do not currently advance beyond base level.

Perhaps they should increase with the discovery of Refrigeration.
I idea being that with refrigeration one can make better use of the seafood that is caught.

I was thinking +1 food, but could instead be +! commerce.

This would also work with the technology of Canning, if that were ever added.
(Canning food was a huge advance during the reign of Napoleon.)

Just a thought.

 

[Xyth]

CIVIL SERVICE

[Xyth, what stops you from repurposing the description of the Bureaucracy tech from vanilla Civ IV?]

Looks like I forgot to link it properly, done now.

 

[Simon_Jester]

DOGMA

"Dogma" refers to a firmly established body of beliefs and opinions, generally associated with religion and laid out by respected theologians within the faith. Within that religion, the dogma is considered authoritative and final- it may be clarified or expanded upon, but not contradicted. To call the basic facts of the dogma into question is, by definition, to leave the religion for some other path which may be deemed heretical.

Different religions have different core bodies of dogma, which usually focus on key points of doctrine that the religious leaders consider to be of extreme importance. In Christianity, the concept of salvation through faith in Christ is a matter of dogma, although the details of how this salvation may best be achieved can vary. In Islam, it is a point of dogma that Muhammed was the last of the divinely inspired prophets.

Dogma is particularly important to organized religions, since it serves to define the limits of what can and cannot be accepted as part of the faith. Learning the basic principles outlined by the dogma is considered the universal foundation of education within the religious tradition, and among the scholarly figures of the religion, all knowledge and all philosophy is likely to be interpreted through the dogma's lens.

Groups which defy dogma are often forced to recant, removed from positions of official responsibility, and even violently persecuted until they rejoin the fold, flee, or die.

The concept of points of dogma that a society will not tolerate violation of is not unique to religion. Many totalitarian societies feature secular political 'dogma,' de facto or de jure, which cannot be violated without the hostile attentions of the state.

ECOLOGY

Ecology is the science of studying biological systems in nature, as distinct from the processes that go on inside individual organisms or species.

Ecologists focus on understanding how different species interact in their natural habitats, what causes some to flourish and others to fade, what patterns persist across all examples of a given biome (such as 'forest' or 'savannah'), and what difference may make one area unique compared to others that are superficially similar. Knowledge of ecology helps to predict the future of a living system, control outbreaks of diseases such as blights in the wild, and mitigate certain types of natural disaster such as floods and wildfires.

Ecological discoveries over the late 19th and 20th centuries have made humanity far more aware of the complexities of life on Earth, and how human actions impact these complexities.

EMPLOYMENT

In hunter-gatherer societies, every person works solely for themself, or for a handful of dependents such as children. Goods may be distributed among the group or kept in an individual's hands, but there is no concept of one person working at the orders of another, or working solely to enrich another.

This pattern seems to have persisted through the early days of civilization, with the average citizen being a subsistence farmer who works to grow their own food and make their own goods, or a specialist who provides some specific product in exchange for food and goods. The most common exception were slaves, individuals legally owned by some other person, and who could be ordered to do nearly any form of labor on their behalf.

However, as the amount of surplus available to large civilizations grew and the techniques for recording inventories and contracts improved, a new type of labor relationship emerged- that of the employee. Instead of working directly to produce goods for their own consumption, or being used as a form of property to produce goods for another, an employee works on behalf of another in exchange for some regular, agreed-upon form of compensation, such as food, shelter, money, or a combination of the above.

This kind of labor is much more flexible than subsistence labor. An employee can be paid to do things that would not allow them to provide for themselves directly (a construction worker cannot eat the buildings he creates), or to improve the productivity of a large-scale enterprise (a clerk would be useless working alone, but is valuable when working for a large organization). It is also much more efficient than slavery. Unlike slaves, employees can be obtained cheaply, need not be policed to prevent escapes, and have no particular reason to resent the person they work for which might lead them to cheat, steal, or simply slow down on the job.

ETHICS

Ethics is the philosophical study which addresses moral questions- matters of right and wrong, virtue and vice, justice and injustice. This has preoccupied thinkers since ancient times, but formal discussion and contemplation of ethics as a logic-based endeavour, as distinct from traditions of religious or secular law, are mostly a product of the classical and medieval periods.

Different cultures produce widely divergent schools of ethics, ranging from the law-oriented systems common in China to the relatively individualist virtue-ethical schools of the ancient Greeks. Ethics may be highly abstract or applied as a practical matter to questions of professional conduct and personal behavior. They may emphasize the intent of the moral actor, the fulfillment of certain laws and precepts, the consequences of the action itself, or any combination of the above.

[possibly incomplete -SJ]

 

[Howard Mahler]

As I have said, I think the end of the tech tree could use more work and added depth.
I am not thinking of a Sci-Fi mod.
(A false dichotomy, either one leaves it alone or adds as many techs as in a Sci-Fi mod or Alpha Centauri.)

The game supposedly goes to 2050.
So I would like to see about 40 more years of techs beyond present day.
This would be at least as many techs as over the last 40 years, due to the generally accelerating rate of technological advancement.

From a game standpoint, one is trying to avoid edge effects.
As one approaches the end of the tech tree, the lack of useful techs to research starts affecting the game well before one reaches the final column.
I think it is better to maintain for as long as possible the illusion that technological advancement continues to stretch into the far future.

Also, for those of us who do not play the spaceship victory, the tech tree thins out much sooner than necessary.

I would like to see some more weapons advancements, buildings, wonders, etc, so that it takes longer to get the sense that useful research is at an end. This should make it possible to grow even bigger and more productive cities.

One could come up with some techs that are expected to see widespread application in the next 40 years, or at least might see widespread application in the next 40 years. For example: controlled fussion, maglev trains, asteriod mining, gene therapy, etc.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Asteroid mining isn't a very likely one in the near-term future... although it could have been, if we'd put in the effort in the '70s and on to develop the infrastructure.

 

[Mr. Sulu]

Here are some ideas for techs, several of them are borrowed from Next War mod

Biological Warfare
"Above 700 Negroes are come down the River in the Smallpox. I shall distribute them about the Rebel Plantations"
-Alexander Leslie

Cloning
"Cloning is great. If God made the original, then making copies should be fine"
-Doug Coupland

Gene Manipulation
"The advance of genetic engineering makes it quite conceivable that we will begin to design our own evolutionary progress."
-Isaac Asimov

Magnetic Levitation
Haven't found a quote

ColdFusion
"Now, of course, cold fusion is the daddy of them all in a way, in terms of value, so I think that viewed in a social way, from the point of social considerations and economics, it will tell you that this thing will stay around."
-Martin Fleischmann

Nanotechnology
"Nanotechnology is manufacturing with atoms"
-William Powell

Space Tourism
"In 12 or 15 years, there will be routine, affordable space tourism not just in the U.S. but in a lot of countries"
-Burt Rutan

String Theory
"In essence, String Theory describes space and time, matter and energy, gravity and light, indeed all of God's creation... as music"
-Roy H. Williams

 

[Simon_Jester]

I oppose making String Theory a tech because there is no real certainty that any of the many theories which can be described under the heading of 'string theory' are true. They represent one set of ways among many that could let us describe the universe in terms 'deeper' than the current Standard Model. But they're far from the only possible way.

Also, I'm not sure what advances could be attached to super-advanced physics technologies in the post-modern era. Speaking as someone with a physics background, deep research into theoretical physics may turn out to be something of a dead end in the 21st century, simply because we're discovering things so subtle and difficult to bring out from the background that they become nearly impossible to apply.

Advances in the physics of materials have applications we'll see plenty of. Likewise for the physics of plasmas and particle beams (fusion, cancer therapy, weapons- one thing we could create as a 'future' unit without getting too far into the future would be a "laser destroyer" with excellent defense statistics, reflecting the use of tactical lasers to intercept air and missile attacks.

 

[Mr. Sulu]

Hmm, your point about String Theory is correct, there are 5 differing theories. But it does have the potential to become the theory of everything, and it's discovery in itself is an important discovery, is it not? I see your point though. But what do you think of the other Technology ideas?

I have some more ideas

Magnetic Weaponry
"I am speed, and I destroy"
-Motto of the United States Railgun Development Program

This has potential as a very dangerous weapon. We're already developing them (Albeit the ones we have right now are about the size of a small building) but I think they have potential. Thoughts?

Quantum Mechanics
"For those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it"
-Niels Bohr

This has branched off into several fields of Science, and is an important part of several types of sciences

 

[Simon_Jester]

You seem to be proposing that we create new techs with new names, that did not previously exist; how would these techs fit into the existing tree? Do you have a proposal in mind for what their prerequisites should be?

I'd love to see a sketch of a convincing 'future tree' that runs past 'current' technology while offering plausible bonuses, improvements and units that benefit the player who isn't planning on a space race victory.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

I would think a better name for the "String Theory" tech would be "Unified Field Theory" as it gets the point across (a theory of everything) without constraining it. But that's, of course, assuming that adding a tech like that is even worthwhile, of which I'm not convinced.

 

[Mr. Sulu]

Well, this would require moving the Space Ship parts far back, but I do you have some ideas

Quantum Mechanics should come before Particle Physics, as Particle Physics are governed by Quantum Mechanics, and Quantum Mechanics was developed in the 1930s and the Standard Model was developed in the 1970s.....But I would really like an actual physicist in this case. I am not an expert in physics. But, since it was developed around the same time as the atomic bomb you could place it as prerequisite to Atomic Physics, and make it necessary to have Combustion to research it. You could then put the ability to build a laboratory, to make it earlier as laboratories have been used before the age of computers.

Biological Warfare weapons were built in the 1970s, and were operational (Until we gave them up) , so it would make sense to put them somewhere around Computers, as Computers were used in their production, so we could place them after Computers and require you to have researched Rocketry. Once discovering Biological Warfare you could build Biological Warfare Missiles, which would require a Biological Warfare Lab (I'm really milking Next War). Using these Biological Warfare Missiles on an enemy would result in a diplomatic penalty. Although we could also think of a viable way of spreading disease in enemy cities, such as giving Great Spies the ability to carry a virus and then you could sacrifice them to attack, short of adding an Great Doctor Unit.

These are the ones I have time to evaluate right now.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Well, this would require moving the Space Ship parts far back, but I do you have some ideas

Quantum Mechanics should come before Particle Physics, as Particle Physics are governed by Quantum Mechanics, and Quantum Mechanics was developed in the 1930s...

I question the wisdom of inserting Quantum Mechanics into the tree at all, as a tech distinct from the 'atomic' technologies already in there. While the development of QM involved a lot of brainwork by some very smart people, there's only so much room in the tree at all.

Broadly speaking, we have one column of techs for each twenty years or so of the twentieth century- which is about the minimum to represent such a huge jump in technological capability and social change, but still means that for every 20-year period there are only about seven techs to go around. If "nuclear fission" and "atomic physics" are already there, then even wearing my physicist hat I wouldn't want to see yet another 'physics' tech in the early to mid-20th century. Not when it's competing for space with very logical choices like "Total War," or "Feminism" or "Pharmaceuticals" or "Radar."

and the Standard Model was developed in the 1970s.....But I would really like an actual physicist in this case. I am not an expert in physics. But, since it was developed around the same time as the atomic bomb you could place it as prerequisite to Atomic Physics, and make it necessary to have Combustion to research it. You could then put the ability to build a laboratory, to make it earlier as laboratories have been used before the age of computers.

Atomic physics is, basically, the physics of the atom- and our understanding of the atom proceeded in parallel with the advance of quantum mechanics. "Atomic physics" does not simply mean "this is how to make atomic bombs go bang." Arguably, the study of atomic physics began with Rutherford's alpha particle scattering experiments back around 1910.

Although making the laboratory available earlier is a GREAT idea, I totally approve, because it helps compensate for the increased length of the tech tree. The first organized research and development facilities showed up within a decade or two of 1900, depending on how you define the term. What is there in the existing tree that corresponds to techs that were developed circa 1880-1900...

Hm. How about making Electricity the prerequisite for Laboratories? I think that's a fine idea, myself.

Biological Warfare weapons were built in the 1970s, and were operational (Until we gave them up) , so it would make sense to put them somewhere around Computers, as Computers were used in their production, so we could place them after Computers and require you to have researched Rocketry. Once discovering Biological Warfare you could build Biological Warfare Missiles, which would require a Biological Warfare Lab (I'm really milking Next War). Using these Biological Warfare Missiles on an enemy would result in a diplomatic penalty. Although we could also think of a viable way of spreading disease in enemy cities, such as giving Great Spies the ability to carry a virus and then you could sacrifice them to attack, short of adding an Great Doctor Unit.

Using Great People for that role strikes me as a bad idea. It's very hard to get them in the late-game, and sacrificing one for a short-term military advantage... I don't like it.

There was some talk, a while ago, about making 'plague' mechanics for the game, as a way to artificially limit the growth of populations in the early game and make it more costly and risky to push population beyond the limit of a city's health. This might be a good time to think about how to implement them...

Plagues could be a common problem for overpopulated cities in the early and mid-game, nearly disappear in the industrial age as the right combination of buildings and technologies emerged, and then re-appear (potentially) with the rise of bioweapons... which would carry a grave risk of bombing entire civilizations back into the Iron Age as far as population size and productive power were concerned, because of the sudden outbreaks of plagues in otherwise healthy cities.

Seriously, bioweapons are nasty stuff. I know some people who know one guy whose job description is "professional nuclear war planner;" a lot of what I wrote in the 'nuclear weapon' descriptions I learned from his writings. He thinks over the effects of nuclear bombs on a regular basis and regards them with respectful familiarity. But biological warfare scares even him.

Something to think about, that.

 

[Mr. Sulu]

Well, in RFC they actually made Russian Research Institutes unlock at Electricity, so it would be a smart idea. Definitely with the increased number of techs we should probably get at least 1 more science building but I digress. But the great person idea was from Thomas's war, so I didn't really know how it would work out. But the idea of limiting early growth with the possibility of plagues sounds good to me. Rarely is there ramifications in-game for keeping your cities unhealthy (Except when the Influenza event comes around). But yeah, they once let lose Anthrax on Gruinard Island only inhabited by birds and smaller mammals and it took 40 years for it to subside. So we could have biological warfare missiles leave effects around the city which destroys any tiles for Food/Commerce/Science that you can work around your city. This would reduce your cities to small hamlets. However, it should be possible to remove it's effects. Really horrific stuff....

 

[Simon_Jester]

I would argue that biological weapons have such civilization-ending potential that if they are given their full realistic power, they do not belong in the mod at all.

It would actually be possible to fight a nuclear war and have a more or less functioning civilization come out the other side, after it digs its way out of the rubble, if the war were not as absolute and massively destructive as it could be. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to fight such a war with tailored viruses.

Also, unlike nuclear weapons we really do not have any strong, reliable information on what bioweapons would do- nuclear weapons have been tested openly, used in war, and there is plenty of published material on what they can do from authoritative sources. Bioweapons are more speculative, and as such we could present them as anything from an exotic cruise missile substitute (as in Next War) to "push button, world comes to an end."

 

[Mr. Sulu]

In my opinion biological warfare in real life is more dangerous and valuable from a conqueror's standpoint than nuclear weapons, as all of the buildings in a city would stay but all the people would die. But it's after effects would last for decades, which would render the area useless so either way you're looking a casualties and contamination. But bringing this back to Civ IV I don't think Biological Warfare Missiles should be world-ending weapons, but an intermediary between Guided missiles and ICBM's. You could store them in cities and Missile Cruisers and launch them at cities (which would cause a loss of population) and they would "contaminate" surrounding tiles, rendering them unworkable. This would be similar to fallout, and speaking from a graphics standpoint you could just turn fallout green and be done with it. The tiles could have contamination removed by a Laborer in 10-15 turns minimum, and this ability would be unlocked by as yet unknown tech (I don't have access to Civ IV HR right now). This would give the player long term implications on using them, as it will require investment to clean up and has dangerous effects if you're hit with them. It would also be interesting to have a UN resolution banning them, like the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty they already have.

 

[Simon_Jester]

In my opinion biological warfare in real life is more dangerous and valuable from a conqueror's standpoint than nuclear weapons, as all of the buildings in a city would stay but all the people would die. But it's after effects would last for decades, which would render the area useless so either way you're looking a casualties and contamination.

You could push armies through a zone you'd fought over with nuclear weapons- cancer rates go up a bit down the line, but you still have a military in fighting condition afterwards as long as you have well trained units to probe for radiation hazards and don't do things like drink from the water in a nuclear bomb crater.

With bioweapons... God help you if the plague gets to your own lines and starts spreading among your own armies, or your own civilians. It's a whole new level of "dangerous." Nuclear weapons are deeply, profoundly, deadly... but they're only that horribly dangerous in the area they're aimed at. Bioweapons can be aimed at one place and kill the population of nations half way round the world from the target.

There are good reasons why everyone abandoned bioweapons. They're simply not controllable in real life- you can't easily make them deadly enough to be more dangerous than an equivalent amount of nerve gas without making them deadly enough to kill the world.

If we bring that mechanic into History Rewritten, and give them realistic power levels, they become "push button, end game." If we don't do that, and bioweapon effects are arbitrarily assumed to be limited to the point directly attacked, they're just an exotic substitute for cruise or nuclear missiles, like in Next War- where frankly I never really got the point of using bioweapons at all, and relied on conventional weapons.

I don't see the point, myself.

 

[Xyth]

Laboratory

I agree that it probably should be earlier than it is. Electricity would make good sense though I worry that it's a little too close to the Observatory and the University. Significant calendar and gamespeed changes are coming in the next version so lets see how those feel first and keep this in mind as way to fine-tune things in the late game as necessary.


Atomic Physics, Particle Physics, and the Future era

I'm using these two techs to cover the development of modern physics, including Quantum Mechanics. Atomic Physics covers the work of Bohr, Rutherford, etc and deals with protons, neutrons, electrons, radiation, electromagnetism, quanta, etc. Particle Physics refers to advanced understanding of matter and energy, the Standard Model, dark matter, string theories, etc. As it's a future tech in HR I consider Particle Physics in game to be more advanced than our current real world understanding and to even represent a complete 'unified model'.

I'm open to suggestions for better names for either or both techs but at this stage I really don't think we can justify even more physics techs. The modern era has a lot to cover already and the Future era needs a lot more content added to the existing techs before we consider adding even more of them. Although a few more techs may get added eventually, note that I don't wish to expand the Future Era into a full era in its own right. I'm happy for it to exist primarily for the space race - it just needs some 'bonus' content added to it for those that reach it and aren't seeking a space victory.

That said, if anyone thinks one of the existing future techs would be better renamed or replaced by something else, I'm open to suggestions here too. I just chose techs that fit the flow of the tree coming out of the Modern era and that seemed to me to be some of the likely or desirable next steps for technology.

At some point I need to have a look at Next War and see what from there would make sense as near-future additions to HR. Not a priority at the moment though.

 

[Simon_Jester]

It would actually make good logical sense for the University to become available in the late medieval or early renaissance. Is that where you have it now?

 

[Xyth]

It would actually make good logical sense for the University to become available in the late medieval or early renaissance. Is that where you have it now?

It's available at Humanism in the early Renaissance. The Observatory is available at Physics in the late Renaissance and Electricity is early Industrial.

 

[Simon_Jester]

OK, I can see how you might want to push Laboratory a little further down the tree than that.

Still, it's something to think about- moving it up to a time when there's still several tiers of tech left to research would turn it into less of an afterthought.

Research boosts in general are just weak in the very late game, if you ask me. It's one of the problems with adding 'marvel of modern science' wonders like the LHC or the Hubble Telescope- simply making them give you a science boost is useless.