Feedback: Tech Tree

[Azoth]

And second, the technologies that could use new quotes:

Economics
Current: The price of any commodity rises and falls by the proportion of the number of buyers and sellers. -John Locke
Suggested: The engine which drives enterprise is not thrift but profit. -John Maynard Keynes

I think I originally suggested Locke but he is simply restating "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it" in different words. Keynes is better.


Fission
Current: I do not know how the third world war will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the fourth - rocks. -Albert Einstien
Suggested: If the radiance of a thousand suns were to bust forth at once in the sky, that would be like the splendour of the mighty One. I am become Death, destroyer of worlds. -The Bhagavat Gita

Oppenheimer quoted the Bhagavat Gita when he witnessed the world's first nuclear test. The man knew his classics: the quote is used in BtS, and it was used in HR, when we had a separate Nuclear Power technology.


Fusion
Current: The discovery of nuclear reactions need not bring about the destruction of mankind any more than the discovery of matches. -Albert Einstein
Suggested: All stable processes we shall predict. All unstable processes we shall control. -John von Neumann

Since Fusion has yet to be discovered, I thought a forward-looking quote was more appropriate.


Laser
Current: Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws. -Douglas Adams
Suggested: Fill the fixed mind with all your toys, as thick and numberless as the gay motes that people the sunbeams. -John Milton

Sociology
Current: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? -Reg (John Cleese), 'The Life of Brian'
Suggested: The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it. -Karl Marx

Comedians are well and good, but I prefer the grand quote.


Superconductors
Current: What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome. -Friedrich Neitzsche
Suggested: Is it a fact - or have I dreamt it - that, by means of electricity, the world of matter has become a great nerve, vibrating thousands of miles in a breathless point of time? -Nathaniel Hawthorne

Nietzsche isn't talking about electrical resistance here. Hawthorne is.


Urban Planning
Current: The city must be beautiful, due advantage being taken of the hilly nature of the spot for grand or lovely prospects… -Pierre L'Enfant
Suggested: I found Rome a city of bricks and left it a city of marble. -Augustus Caesar

Snappy.

 

[Xyth]

Nobility is good, but let me know some of the other candidates. I added Geology, Horticulture, Stirrups, but I don't feel they're ideal. Didn't like Laser, uncertain about Sociology.

Everything else I like, and added when I re-uploaded 1.18 this afternoon.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Nitpick: in the Fission quote, it's "burst forth," not "bust forth."

 

[Xyth]

From the 1.17 thread:

Imo future tech is basically useless in this mod given the enormous amount of health and happiness bonuses you can get from elsewhere. Is it possible to code a random chance benefit for future tech? Like it randomly adds extra culture/espionage/units/build modifiers/corporate bonuses/other random things?

Random benefits for Future Tech is a good idea. Added to the todo list.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah the urban planning quote is better. I came up with the previous one, and it was 'best I could do.' Augustus' quote nails things for the ages; L'Enfant is only interesting if you know in advance he was talking about Washington, D.C. which is at least now a city of world significance.

 

[Nightstar]

A couple of minor snarls in the tech tree:

Constitution currently requires Education and Finance, but Finance itself *also* requires Education via Patronage.

Similarly, Biology currently requires Scientific Method and Sanitation, but Sanitation already requires Scientific Method via Hydraulics and Geology.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I agree- that's part of what we were talking about some time ago with the very tight crosslinking. At Scientific Method, you basically can't research much of anything in the row beyond it, without first getting Scientific Method.

 

[Xyth]

A couple of minor snarls in the tech tree:

Constitution currently requires Education and Finance, but Finance itself *also* requires Education via Patronage.

Similarly, Biology currently requires Scientific Method and Sanitation, but Sanitation already requires Scientific Method via Hydraulics and Geology.

I agree- that's part of what we were talking about some time ago with the very tight crosslinking. At Scientific Method, you basically can't research much of anything in the row beyond it, without first getting Scientific Method.

Yeah, this section of the tech tree needs some reconfiguring. I'll definitely address it for 1.19. Please let me know if you spot any other snarls like these.

 

[Nightstar]

Two more snarls:

Aesthetics requires Mathematics and Philosophy, but Philosophy already requires Mathematics via Astronomy.
Sanitation requires Urban Planning, Humanism, and Hydraulics, but Hydraulics already requires Humanism via Geology and Scientific Method.

There are also a number of bottlenecks (defined as techs that are required for five or more of the ones in the next column) which I suspect are also the prime culprits behind the snarls:

Only two 3rd column Classical techs can be researched without Philosophy (Milling and Nobility).
Only two 1st column Medieval techs can be researched without Nobility (Stirrups and Machinery).
Only one 3rd column Medieval tech can be researched without Education (Horticulture).
Only two 2nd column Renaissance techs can be researched without Charter (Firearms and Scientific Method).
Only one 3rd column Renaissance tech can be researched without Scientific Method (Replaceable Parts).
Only one 2nd column Modern tech can be researched without Atomic Physics (Globalization).

Much of the problem is the way so many techs have crosslinked prerequisites in the same column (and Sanitation actually requires one a column *ahead* of it), resulting in some rather convoluted tech lines. The worst example is probably in the Renaissance with the six deep line Optics > Scientific Method > Geology > Hydraulics > Sanitation > Sociology, all of which are technically in a single three column era. (While there's another six deep line in the Modern era with Atomic Physics > Electronics > Computers > Space Flight > Satellites > Telecommunications, many games will already be over before getting that deep in the tree, so it's not quite as much of an issue.)

 

[Absolution]

Don't you think the Wheel is discovered too late?
The farms and the pastures are useless without roads.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I would like to advise on these bottlenecks, but I need some time to think things through...

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. And we should be able to get rid of a few of these weird bottlenecks.



First up, Philosophy. Which, yes, is tied to most of the stuff in the next row. Not just Politics and Ethics (which make LOTS of sense, and have it as a direct prerequisite). You need it for Artisanry and Architecture (via Aesthetics) and Steel Working of all things (via Alchemy). That's five of the seven techs in the next row. I get the desire to make it impossible to build up a mighty Heavy Footman/Forge military-industrial complex without having first researched the 'social' techs on the bottom half of the tree. But this takes the principle a little far.

So to review, your "problem child" techs are Alchemy and Aesthetics, both of which have Philosophy as a same-tier prerequisite.

How about making Writing a prerequisite for Alchemy, instead of Philosophy? Writing is much 'lower' on the tree and requires less of a concerted effort to reach, so it's less intrusive as a prerequisite. It's also in the tier behind Alchemy, which is good on general principles.

However, I also suggest that you make Dromons require Shipbuilding again- because Shipbuilding will no longer be a prerequisite for Alchemy. Galleasses don't need to change; since Cartography is a prerequisite for Logistics, you basically can't discover Gunpowder without having pushed your 'social' research all the way up into the High Middle or Early Renaissance ages.

For Aesthetics, how about making Priesthood the prerequisite instead of Philosophy? Again, it's the tech immediately before, so you're getting some of the same benefit, but I don't have to research everything in the bottom half of the tree just to build a Weaver. This is nice because the bottom row of techs are pretty blatantly naval: it makes sense to neglect them on a landlocked map, because they provide relatively little benefit. The only really worthwhile thing down there is the Nazca Lines, if you don't have much of a coast.




Next problem is Nobility. Having Civil Service, Guilds, and Land Tenure require it makes sense. The problem is that Ethics requires you to research it (why is a warrior aristocracy necessary for a civilization to develop enlightened ethical theories?). And through Ethics, you need Nobility to get Medicine and Theology.

We can fix this easily enough- use Law instead of Nobility as a prerequisite for Ethics. If you think about ethical systems like Confucianism this makes a lot of sense (no warrior elite there). And arguably the concept of universal law is much more important to the evolution of philosophy than the concept of an 'elite' of specially empowered individuals.



So there. Three changes: Ethics has Law instead of Nobility as a prerequisite. Alchemy has Writing instead of Philosophy. And Aesthetics has Priesthood instead of Philosophy.

 

[Xyth]

Aesthetics requires Mathematics and Philosophy, but Philosophy already requires Mathematics via Astronomy.

Only two 3rd column Classical techs can be researched without Philosophy (Milling and Nobility).

I've addressed these by making Aesthetics require Priesthood instead of Philosophy. Aesthetics no longer requires Mathematics twice and you can now research Milling, Architecture, Artisanry, and Nobility without Philosophy.

Only two 1st column Medieval techs can be researched without Nobility (Stirrups and Machinery).

Addressed this by making Land Tenure require Politics instead of Nobility. Unrelated, I'm also changing Medicine to require Alchemy instead of Plumbing.

Constitution currently requires Education and Finance, but Finance itself *also* requires Education via Patronage.

Only one 3rd column Medieval tech can be researched without Education (Horticulture).

Fixed these by shifting the Education prerequisite from Patronage to Finance, and making Constitution require Patronage instead of Finance. No more snarl, and you can now research Logistics, Horticulture, and Cartography without Education.

That was the easy ones, I'll take a look at the much more convoluted Renaissance next.

Don't you think the Wheel is discovered too late?
The farms and the pastures are useless without roads.

You still get the tile yield, the improvement yield, and the resource yield. It's really just the happiness and/or health that you don't get straight away. I think its fine.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Let me try a couple more.



Our next problem is Education. It makes sense that Printing, Constitution, and Evangelism need it (especially if you think about the tie between printing and early universities in Europe). The real problem is that Patronage requires Education, because Patronage is a prerequisite for Cartography, Finance, and Logistics.

The idea of aristocratic patronage doesn't seem automatically linked to having large institutions of higher learning kicking around. But we need a 'bottom half' prerequisite for Patronage anyway... how about Theology? Or Civil Service?

That offers us an interesting alternative to the idea of purely aristocratic patronage, in that an organized church or a bureaucracy can also subsidize things like voyages of exploration. It gives us the same purpose, moves the prerequisites so that you don't need anything else in the same tier to get Patronage, and generally removes the severe Education bottleneck.



Next we have Charter.

It's very logical that Corporation needs Charter. Meteorology is also a good candidate, because Meteorology arises in the 'naval' context, and Charter represents the rise of the great intercontinental mercantile concerns. Without something like the East India Company, there's not much incentive to rule the waves and develop such extensive knowledge of sea and weather. I can work with that.

Now, Geology is arguably a bad choice- there's nothing inherent in the science of Geology that should force it to be a follow-on to Charter, as far as I can tell. But ultimately it's not the 'real' problem. The real problem is twofold.

One is that Urban Planning, in the same tier as Charter, requires Charter- and therefore you need Charter to get Civil Liberties. Since Civil Liberties already has Economics as a prerequisite, this seems kind of pointless.

We could fix that by having Urban Planning need Cartography (which would make sense) or Finance (which would make sense). It could even be an either/or prereq: needs X, Y, and A OR B, not necessarily both A and B.

The other problem is Sanitation, which ties into the Scientific Method bottleneck I was about to take care of anyway.




The Scientific Method bottleneck is one I explicitly flagged for your attention. Basically, the idea that you 'need' science to proceed in any area of human endeavour makes sense, but it's not good for gameplay to have a single technology that 'unlocks' everything that comes after itself.

Having the three 'traditional science' techs of Physics, Chemistry, and Biology all depend on Scientific Method makes sense, so let's keep that.

The real problem here is that Geology needs Scientific Method, despite being in the same tier. This has knock-on effects, because you then need Geology to get Metallurgy, Hydraulics, and Sanitation (which is in the SAME TIER as Scientific Method, despite the fact that you need three techs in Sanitation's own tier and one in the tier beyond it in order to research it). And Sociology, which requires Sanitation.

But Sociology is itself a science- the science of studying society. That's something where you can (again) make a case for Scientific Method being a prerequisite in its own right, not by way of Sanitation.

So either Sanitation needs to be pushed farther along the tree, which would be disruptive, or we just need to rearrange things. What we really need is to decouple Scientific Method from Geology. That lets us research Metallurgy and Hydraulics without Scientific Method and breaks the bottleneck.

How about making Geology depend on Gunpowder? Gunpowder made mining a lot easier, and that did a lot to catalyze advances in our understanding of rock and geological forces. Gunpowder is also already a prerequisite for Scientific Method, so we're following our customary pattern of simply moving the prerequisite "one step backward" along the tree.

However, let us also change Sociology to require Scientific Method. This restores some of the bottlenecking, but I feel it's necessary here, because of the very strong tie between the founding of sociology and the idea of scientific study of how it worked. As opposed to earlier models of "this is how it works, so this is how the gods want it" or whatever.



And last up, Atomic Physics. You need Atomic to get Fission, well no surprise there, that's fine. Having it be a condition for Pharmaceuticals- I can kind of see that

The problem is that you need it to get almost everything else- Space Flight, Radar, Automation, Computers, and Pharmaceuticals. As noted, the only tech in the row beyond Atomic Physics that doesn't need it is Globalization. So what's the problem?

Electronics requires Atomic Physics, Computers require Electronics, and three other techs in that row require Computers or Electronics.

Here's my advice. Remove the Computers requirement for Space Flight; it makes sense but isn't really necessary. Make Computers a prerequsite for Satellites instead- you really need more automation for a satellite constellation than you do for manned space missions to the Moon, in a way, because there's no human being to fix the satellite if it breaks.

That doesn't really remove the bottleneck, but it makes it less annoying because you only need Atomic Physics for four techs instead of five.




So to review:

-Make Patronage require Theology or Civil Service, INSTEAD OF Education
-Make Urban Planning need Cartography or Finance, INSTEAD OF Charter
-Make Geology require Gunpowder, INSTEAD OF Scientific Method
-Make Sociology require Scientific Method (?)
-Make Space Flight NOT require Computers. Instead, make Satellites require Computers.

 

[Simon_Jester]

[looks at Xyth's solutions]

...Great minds think alike?

Anyway, I hope you'll take my ideas for the more advanced eras under consideration...

 

[Xyth]

[looks at Xyth's solutions]

...Great minds think alike?

Anyway, I hope you'll take my ideas for the more advanced eras under consideration...

Always nice when cross-posting compatible ideas!

How about making Writing a prerequisite for Alchemy, instead of Philosophy? Writing is much 'lower' on the tree and requires less of a concerted effort to reach, so it's less intrusive as a prerequisite. It's also in the tier behind Alchemy, which is good on general principles.

This makes sense, but you also touch on the reason why I can't make this particular change:

I get the desire to make it impossible to build up a mighty Heavy Footman/Forge military-industrial complex without having first researched the 'social' techs on the bottom half of the tree. But this takes the principle a little far.

That Philosophy --> Alchemy cross link is crucial in pacing the top, more militaristic, part of the tree. In that instance its not just about delaying Heavy Footmen and Forges, its also about delaying the onset of the Medieval Era: once you have Steel Working it takes just 2 more techs to get Stirrups.

I try to make each tech in the first column of each era* require a vaguely similar number of technologies in total. I've found this a useful way to regulate progress through the eras, hindering beelining through eras and encouraging research different areas of research. A lot of crosslinks were added with this in mind. Currently that first Medieval column requires 34 - 38 previous techs. Dropping Philosophy from the Alchemy requirements would reduce Stirrups to just 27 previous techs; I don't mind broadening the range a bit, but that's much too low in comparison to the other techs.

Ultimately, if we dropped Philosophy from Alchemy, we'd still need to link other techs at the top of the tree to techs from the bottom, in order to preserve pacing. Nothing else I've tried works as well or as tidily as Philosophy ---> Alchemy. Im always open to suggestions though.



* The exception is the Ancient to Classical transition; it just doesn't feel fun or realistic there. This also contributes somewhat to the large 'leap' between Iron Working and Alchemy.

For Aesthetics, how about making Priesthood the prerequisite instead of Philosophy? Again, it's the tech immediately before, so you're getting some of the same benefit, but I don't have to research everything in the bottom half of the tree just to build a Weaver. This is nice because the bottom row of techs are pretty blatantly naval: it makes sense to neglect them on a landlocked map, because they provide relatively little benefit. The only really worthwhile thing down there is the Nazca Lines, if you don't have much of a coast.

Done. Alchemy needs the tie-ins, but Aesthetics didn't.

Next problem is Nobility. Having Civil Service, Guilds, and Land Tenure require it makes sense. The problem is that Ethics requires you to research it (why is a warrior aristocracy necessary for a civilization to develop enlightened ethical theories?). And through Ethics, you need Nobility to get Medicine and Theology.

We can fix this easily enough- use Law instead of Nobility as a prerequisite for Ethics. If you think about ethical systems like Confucianism this makes a lot of sense (no warrior elite there). And arguably the concept of universal law is much more important to the evolution of philosophy than the concept of an 'elite' of specially empowered individuals.

I considered that, it makes sense. Two issues though: firstly, it made Ethics and Politics have the exact same prerequisites, and secondly, it made it too easy to reach the Medieval era via Theology relative to other techs. If we could find a suitable crosslink for Theology it would work, but I don't see anything that fits.

As mentioned earlier I've opted to make Land Tenure require Politics instead of Nobility, which also solves the issue.

Our next problem is Education. It makes sense that Printing, Constitution, and Evangelism need it (especially if you think about the tie between printing and early universities in Europe). The real problem is that Patronage requires Education, because Patronage is a prerequisite for Cartography, Finance, and Logistics.

The idea of aristocratic patronage doesn't seem automatically linked to having large institutions of higher learning kicking around. But we need a 'bottom half' prerequisite for Patronage anyway... how about Theology? Or Civil Service?

That offers us an interesting alternative to the idea of purely aristocratic patronage, in that an organized church or a bureaucracy can also subsidize things like voyages of exploration. It gives us the same purpose, moves the prerequisites so that you don't need anything else in the same tier to get Patronage, and generally removes the severe Education bottleneck.

I like Theology --> Patronage, I'll add that in addition to my other changes in this area.

Still experimenting with and reviewing the later changes.

 

[Nightstar]

Currently that first Medieval column requires 34 - 38 previous techs. Dropping Philosophy from the Alchemy requirements would reduce Stirrups to just 27 previous techs; I don't mind broadening the range a bit, but that's much too low in comparison to the other techs.

Ultimately, if we dropped Philosophy from Alchemy, we'd still need to link other techs at the top of the tree to techs from the bottom, in order to preserve pacing. Nothing else I've tried works as well or as tidily as Philosophy ---> Alchemy. Im always open to suggestions though.

How about shifting the Alchemy crosslink to Writing, but then giving Steel Working itself a crosslink to Artisanry? (Currently Artisanry leads only to Guilds and nothing else.)

I considered that, it makes sense. Two issues though: firstly, it made Ethics and Politics have the exact same prerequisites, and secondly, it made it too easy to reach the Medieval era via Theology relative to other techs. If we could find a suitable crosslink for Theology it would work, but I don't see anything that fits.

Perhaps you could just give the Nobility crosslink to Theology, and have Ethics only require Philosophy?

By the way, what's the rationale behind the Construction->Shipbuilding and Mathematics->Astronomy crosslinks? Those have both been bugging me for a while.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Those make perfect sense to me.

Ships were among the largest objects in the ancient world that had structure, instead of just being huge piles of rock or dirt with some tunnels dug into them. Certainly they were (and have always been) the largest objects in the world that were intended to move, and therefore had to take shifting loads of dynamic forces.

Building a ship (with one or more covered decks, plenty of cargo capacity, etc.) takes a lot of know-how and technique. It's a very impressive exercise in woodworking. So needing to master Construction (of complex buildings) before building large ships makes sense.


Likewise, astronomy is all about mathematics. Early mathematics was intimately tied to the desire to predict the motions of the stars and planets. Even preliterate cultures with astronomical traditions (like the builders of Stonehenge) had to encode a huge amount of knowledge into their works, presumably doing all the math in their heads.

So to say that your civilization cannot develop something like classical astronomy (i.e. Ptolemy) without having mathematics roughly as sophisticated as, say, that of ancient Greece... I approve.

 

[Thyran]

Sun Tzuʼs Art of War. Great Wonder. Requires Military Strategy and Writing.
All mounted units built start with Flanking II. All archery units built start with Drill II.

I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.

Since we have great generals and artists and such in game, why not to allow us to consume them to "build" these wonders. We could even add some low-powered wonders like Mona Lisa and such in the game. Of course you would have to unlock these wonders by certain technology at first. Just an idea..

 

[Simon_Jester]

Things like the Mona Lisa are covered under great artists' "work of art" ability, which puts you a healthy chunk of the way to Legendary culture in one of your cities. Not all the way, but a good deal closer.

Arguably, publishing great works of military science would be covered under great generals' ability to create a military academy or become a "Great Military Instructor."