Feedback: Tech Tree
- Thread starter Xyth
- Start date
The Cultivation tech gives +1 food from farms and +1 commerce from Plantations to represent this. In 0.9.4 the Hydraulics tech will either allow farms to spread irrigation or aqueducts to allow tiles adjacent to the city to be farmed/irrigated. Not completely decided which yet. Both of these techs are medieval techs and between them I think they cover agricultural advances in the Middle Ages pretty well.
Works for me
Simon_Jester
Prince
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Messages
- 495
On some consideration, I'm unhappy with the position of Jet Fighters in the tree- quite late, and significantly later than many of their "peer" units of the post-WWII generation. Except for Stealth, Jet Propulsion is the last tech to appear in the tree, even though historically jets that represented a huge leap over WWII piston-engine fighters were showing up in the '60s and '70s, roughly contemporary with the helicopter gunship and recognizably "modern" tanks.
Frankly, the modern tech tree needs some rearrangement overall, but I'm not up to coming up with a comprehensive plan at the moment. I know you already think about this, but I wanted to mention it.
Fixing this might undermine the elegant 'taper' of the tech tree, but I think it'd be worth it to achieve something with better balance and a bit more versimilitude.
Frankly, the modern tech tree needs some rearrangement overall, but I'm not up to coming up with a comprehensive plan at the moment. I know you already think about this, but I wanted to mention it.
Fixing this might undermine the elegant 'taper' of the tech tree, but I think it'd be worth it to achieve something with better balance and a bit more versimilitude.
Ever since I first made that part of the tech tree I've felt it's missing a 'column' of techs (by which I don't mean a vertical column, I mean 7 more techs in differing places to better pace each row). Some of the lines progress too quickly and others progress too slowly. The early tree has been through several revisions to improve it but the late tree hasn't yet. When the time comes I'll keep the position of Jet Fighters in mind.
Simon_Jester
Prince
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Messages
- 495
I'm... well, fairly familiar with 19th and 20th century history and military history; I'll see what I can do to help come the day.
As my contribution to the tech tree, I'd like to suggest new quotes for a couple of technologies. Don't get me wrong, I think most of the quotes are on point; but some are little more than definitions, others have grown stale over time, and a few do not match the redesigned technologies in HR. It's not a priority by any means; but the right quote adds so much atmosphere. I'll start in the Ancient Era:
Ritual
Current: Mystery creates wonder and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. -Neil Armstrong
Suggested: Lead the people by means of law and regulate them through punishment, and they will be evasive and have no sense of shame. Lead them by means of virtue and regulate them through ritual, and they will have a sense of shame and moreover have standards. -Confucius
Neil Armstrong might be appropriate for Mysticism; but Ritual is something entirely different. In this case, I defer to Confucius, whose philosophy placed great value on ritual li.
Edit: If that passage is too long, you could start with the second sentence: Lead the people by means of virtue...
Copper Working
Current: He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in wet copper armor shouting "All the gods are bastards." -Terry Pratchett
Suggested: Would you say a man is at leisure who arranges with finical care his Corinthian bronzes that the mania of a few makes costly, and spends the greater part of his day upon rusty bits of copper? -Seneca
Pratchett is hilarious; Seneca is relevant. A shorter quote, attributed to Seneca though I could not find the source, runs as follows: Wealth falls on some men as a copper down the drain.
Property
Current: There is sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed. -Mohandas Gandhi
Suggested: The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naive enough to believe him; that man was the true founder civil society. -Jean Jacques Rousseau
As much as I admire Gandhi, I think Rousseau comes closer to the mark. (He goes on to say: From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this imposter; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.)
Sailing
Current: You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails. -Anonymous
Suggested: And now I know we must lift the sail/ And catch the winds of destiny/ Wherever they drive the boat.
To put meaning in one's life may end in madness./ But life without meaning is the torture/ Of restlessness and vague desire-
It is a ship longing for the sea and yet afraid.
- Edgar Lee Masters
A poem beats an anonymous quote any day.
Edit: On second thought, maybe we should just keep the first couple lines: And now I know we must lift the sail and catch the winds of destiny wherever they drive the boat.
Ritual
Current: Mystery creates wonder and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. -Neil Armstrong
Suggested: Lead the people by means of law and regulate them through punishment, and they will be evasive and have no sense of shame. Lead them by means of virtue and regulate them through ritual, and they will have a sense of shame and moreover have standards. -Confucius
Neil Armstrong might be appropriate for Mysticism; but Ritual is something entirely different. In this case, I defer to Confucius, whose philosophy placed great value on ritual li.
Edit: If that passage is too long, you could start with the second sentence: Lead the people by means of virtue...
Copper Working
Current: He was the sort of person who stood on mountaintops during thunderstorms in wet copper armor shouting "All the gods are bastards." -Terry Pratchett
Suggested: Would you say a man is at leisure who arranges with finical care his Corinthian bronzes that the mania of a few makes costly, and spends the greater part of his day upon rusty bits of copper? -Seneca
Pratchett is hilarious; Seneca is relevant. A shorter quote, attributed to Seneca though I could not find the source, runs as follows: Wealth falls on some men as a copper down the drain.
Property
Current: There is sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed. -Mohandas Gandhi
Suggested: The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naive enough to believe him; that man was the true founder civil society. -Jean Jacques Rousseau
As much as I admire Gandhi, I think Rousseau comes closer to the mark. (He goes on to say: From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this imposter; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.)
Sailing
Current: You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails. -Anonymous
Suggested: And now I know we must lift the sail/ And catch the winds of destiny/ Wherever they drive the boat.
To put meaning in one's life may end in madness./ But life without meaning is the torture/ Of restlessness and vague desire-
It is a ship longing for the sea and yet afraid.
- Edgar Lee Masters
A poem beats an anonymous quote any day.
Edit: On second thought, maybe we should just keep the first couple lines: And now I know we must lift the sail and catch the winds of destiny wherever they drive the boat.
I'm always open to suggestions for better quotes. These are good. One note though, I've been thinking about renaming Sailing as Seafaring because it seems a bit odd being the tech that unlocks vessels that are primarily rowed. So we'll probably need a quote more appropriate for that. I've moved the Gandhi quote to Sustainability and the Sustainability quote to Ecology (which had a dull quote).
I'm glad you liked them. Here are some more for the Classical Era:
Seafaring (formerly Sailing)
Suggested: There is no life in thee now, except that rocking life imparted by a gently rolling ship; by her, borrowed from the sea; by the sea, from the inscrutable tides of God. -Herman Melville
Divination
Current: Divine life is in touch with the whole universe on the analogy of the soul's contact with the body. -Muhammad Iqbal
Suggested: And said the Creator, the Maker, and the Forefathers, when they spoke to the soothsayers, who are the diviners: "You must work together and find the means so that man, whom we shall make, man, whom we are going to make, will nourish and sustain us, invoke and remember us." -Popol Vuh
Divinity is not the same thing as divination. In fact, all three Abrahamic religions forbid divination, so an Islamic poet is a poor choice indeed. Divination was common practice in the ancient Mediterranean and Mesoamerica, hence the quote from the Popul Vuh, the Mayan creation myth.
Priesthood
Current: The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. -The Bible, Numbers
Suggested: From the solemn gloom of the temple, children run out to sit in the dust. God watches them play and forgets the priest. -Rabindranath Tagore
The current quote is a prayer and a blessing. It says nothing about priesthood. (Not to mention, we have plenty of quotes from the Bible already: see Pottery, Calendar, and Metal Casting.)
Now, Tagore has a certain charm. For something more reverent, I might suggest: The priest lives solely in the realm of the invisible; for him, all that is visible has only the truth of an allegory. -Karl von Schlegel
Architecture
Current: Architecture begins where engineering ends. -Walter Gropius
Suggested: Architecture is the learned game, correct and magnificent, of forms assembled in the light. -Le Corbusier
Far too many quotes define architecture in terms of other fields: engineering, music, even politics. I prefer to define architecture on its own terms.
Artisanry
Current: The artist is he who detects and applies the law from observation of the works of genius, whether of man or nature. The artisan is he who merely applies the rules which others have detected. -Henry David Thoreau
Suggested: The life so short, the craft so long in the learning. -Geoffrey Chaucer
Thoreau seems to think that artisans merely "apply the rules." Chaucer gives craftsmen their due respect.
Politics
Current: Man is by nature a political animal. -Aristotle
Suggested: Politics is the art of the possible. -Otto von Bismarck
Aristotle is not bad, though his chief concern is actually human flourishing. (In saying that man is a political animal, Aristotle argues that human fulfillment requires not only the cultivation of inner virtue, but also engagement in society and politics.) For a technology that unlocks Spies and Democracy, I prefer Bismarck.
Seafaring (formerly Sailing)
Suggested: There is no life in thee now, except that rocking life imparted by a gently rolling ship; by her, borrowed from the sea; by the sea, from the inscrutable tides of God. -Herman Melville
Divination
Current: Divine life is in touch with the whole universe on the analogy of the soul's contact with the body. -Muhammad Iqbal
Suggested: And said the Creator, the Maker, and the Forefathers, when they spoke to the soothsayers, who are the diviners: "You must work together and find the means so that man, whom we shall make, man, whom we are going to make, will nourish and sustain us, invoke and remember us." -Popol Vuh
Divinity is not the same thing as divination. In fact, all three Abrahamic religions forbid divination, so an Islamic poet is a poor choice indeed. Divination was common practice in the ancient Mediterranean and Mesoamerica, hence the quote from the Popul Vuh, the Mayan creation myth.
Priesthood
Current: The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. -The Bible, Numbers
Suggested: From the solemn gloom of the temple, children run out to sit in the dust. God watches them play and forgets the priest. -Rabindranath Tagore
The current quote is a prayer and a blessing. It says nothing about priesthood. (Not to mention, we have plenty of quotes from the Bible already: see Pottery, Calendar, and Metal Casting.)
Now, Tagore has a certain charm. For something more reverent, I might suggest: The priest lives solely in the realm of the invisible; for him, all that is visible has only the truth of an allegory. -Karl von Schlegel
Architecture
Current: Architecture begins where engineering ends. -Walter Gropius
Suggested: Architecture is the learned game, correct and magnificent, of forms assembled in the light. -Le Corbusier
Far too many quotes define architecture in terms of other fields: engineering, music, even politics. I prefer to define architecture on its own terms.
Artisanry
Current: The artist is he who detects and applies the law from observation of the works of genius, whether of man or nature. The artisan is he who merely applies the rules which others have detected. -Henry David Thoreau
Suggested: The life so short, the craft so long in the learning. -Geoffrey Chaucer
Thoreau seems to think that artisans merely "apply the rules." Chaucer gives craftsmen their due respect.
Politics
Current: Man is by nature a political animal. -Aristotle
Suggested: Politics is the art of the possible. -Otto von Bismarck
Aristotle is not bad, though his chief concern is actually human flourishing. (In saying that man is a political animal, Aristotle argues that human fulfillment requires not only the cultivation of inner virtue, but also engagement in society and politics.) For a technology that unlocks Spies and Democracy, I prefer Bismarck.
Howard Mahler
Since Civ 1
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2003
- Messages
- 619
Copied from the main thread, here is my proposed revision to the early tech tree.
See the attached pdf file. (Same as prior one.)
The last page has some additional ideas.
I have added 14 new techs, so that 5 columns become 7.
This spreads the benefits out and also adds some room for new buildings and wonders. I have suggested some.
In order to not slow down tech progress, one would also need to cut the cost of techs in the first column significantly.
For example, one could reduce the first column cost from 50 to 20, and have the second column be 40. Then the other columns should increase. The costs for a tech in the new 7th column such as Currency should be the same as currently (where it is in the 5th column.)
One could consider giving each civ 3 rather than 2 starting techs.
Please note that I have maintained the basic geometry of the current tree, columns of 7 techs each.
There are plenty of cross connections.
As with the current tree, not all of the prerequisites are logical necessities.
I do not seem to be able to get the attachment to attach.
So here is the information with worse formatting.
Mining CopperW Masonry BronzeW MilitaryStrategy IronW MetalCasting
Pottery TheWheel Trade Riding Construction Fortification Engineering
Pastoralism Tanning Textiles Property RecordKeeping Employment Aesthetics
Ritual CeremonialBurial Priesthood HereditaryRule Representation Writing Currency
Agriculture Baking Stargazing Mathematics Calendar Philosophy Law
Hunting Archery Fermentation OralTradition Mythology Divination Anatomy
Fishing Sailing MapMaking ShipBuilding Astronomy Navigation OrganizedReligion
Copper Working requires Mining but not Pottery.
The Wheel requires Pottery as well as Pastoralism.
Tanning requires Pastoralism and Hunting. Allows Tannery, rather than Textiles.
Ceremonial Burial requires Ritual and Pottery. Allows Cemetery rather than Ritual.
Baking requires Agriculture. Allows Bakery.
Bakery gives health benefits that are currently with Granary. +1 Food. Granary made cheaper.
Archery requires Hunting: Allows Archer rather than Hunting. Similar change to Longbow, etc.
Masonry requires Copper Working.
Trade requires the Wheel and Sailing. Allows Open Borders rather than Property. Trading Post.
Trading Post: 1 Free Merchant, +1 happiness with Mercantilism
Textiles requires Tanning and Agriculture. Still allows Weaver. Also allows Ropewalk.
Ropewalk in city is required to build: Caravel, Galleas, Galleon, Frigate, Privateer, Ship of the Line.
Priesthood requires Ceremonial Burial and either Agriculture or Hunting.
Priesthood can construct Temple, rather than Divination.
Stargazing requires Ceremonial Burial and Sailing. Allows Stonehenge rather than Ritual.
Stargazing is required for Pyramids in addition to Masonry.
Fermentation requires Baking and Pottery. Allows the Tavern rather than Employment.
Fermentation allows the Winery rather than Calendar.
Map Making requires Sailing and Tanning. Allows map trading rather than Astronomy.
Bronze Working requires Masonry.
Riding requires Trade and Textiles. Allows Horseman rather than Iron Working.
Property requires Trade and Masonry. Allows Inn.
Inn gives +2 coins and +25% trade route yield. Reduce Harbor to +25% trade route yield.
Mining Copper W. Masonry Bronze W. Military S. Iron W. Metal Casting
Pottery Wheel Trade Riding Construction Fortification Engineering
Pastoralism Tanning Textiles Property Record K. Employ. Aesthetics
Ritual Cer. Burial Priesthood Heredit. R. Represent. Writing Currency
Agriculture Baking Stargazing Mathematics Calendar Philosophy Law
Hunting Archery Ferment. Oral Trad. Mythology Divination Anatomy
Fishing Sailing Map Mak. Ship Build. Astronomy Navigation Organized Rel.
Hereditary Rule requires Priesthood and the Wheel. Allows Monarchy.
Mathematics requires Stargazing and Trade.
Oral Tradition requires Stargazing and Fermentation.
Ship Building requires Map Making.
Military Strategy requires Bronze Working and Riding.
Military Strategy allows Horse Archer (needs Riding and Archery),
Catapult (needs Mathematics), and War Elephant.
Construction requires Masonry and Mathematics.
Record Keeping requires Property and Textiles.
Representation requires Hereditary Rule. Allows Democracy.
Calendar requires Mathematics and Oral Tradition.
Mythology requires Oral Tradition. Allows Heroic Epic and Temple of Artemis (needs Construction)
Mythology needed for Statue of Zeus in addition to Metal Casting.
Mythology needed for Parthenon in addition to Aesthetics.
Astronomy requires Ship Building and Mathematics.
Iron Working requires Construction and Bronze Working.
Fortification requires Construction and Military Strategy.
Employment requires Record Keeping and Construction.
Writing requires Record Keeping and Oral Tradition.
Philosophy requires Representation and Mythology. No scientist to first Civ to discover.
Divination requires Mythology and Priesthood
Navigation requires Astronomy and Calendar.
Metal Casting requires Iron Working.
Engineering requires Iron Working and Fortification.
Aesthetics requires Philosophy and Mathematics. Allows Parthenon, which also needs Mythology.
Currency requires Employment and Writing
Law requires Writing and Philosophy.
Anatomy requires Philosophy and Divination. Scientist to first Civ to discover. +1 Health.
Anatomy leads to Medicine.
Organized Religion requires Divination and Hereditary Rule. Leads to Theology.
Organized Religion allows: Great Temple, Organized Religion, and Ankor Wat.
(Ankor Wat still requires Aesthetics.)
Theology requires Organized Religion and Philosophy. Allows Theocracy or maybe Dogma does.
Medicine requires Anatomy and Writing.
Additional suggested changes:
Trimene: In addition to Ship Building requires Copper Working. (To build the copper ram.)
Great Lighthouse: only +1 trade routes rather than +2.
Great Library requires Philosophy in addition to Writing.
Chichen Itza: change to a free wall in every city.
Confederation is allowed with Politics.
Caste System is allowed with Guilds or maybe with Artisanry.
Göbekli Tepe in Turkey, predates Stonehenge by thousands of years.
Great Wonder. Requires Ritual. (Stonehenge had been moved to Stargazing.)
Possible Powers: Each citizen specialist in any city gets +1 coins and +1 culture,
or gives one free priest in city where built,
or has the current ability of Stonehenge and then revise Stonehenge.
Possible revisions of Stonehenge: free cemetery in every city; would need to increase the cost.
Great Star Catalog. Requires Astronomy and Record Keeping. Great Wonder.
Each scientist specialist gets +2 science more than currently.
Sun Tzuʼs Art of War. Great Wonder. Requires Military Strategy and Writing.
All mounted units built start with Flanking II. All archery units built start with Drill II.
Baths of Caracella: Great Wonder. free Baths in every city. Requires Hydraulics and Medicine.
Grand Cannel: Great Wonder. Requires Hydraulics and an Aqueduct. Two free Merchants in the
city.
Cotton Gin. National Project. Requires Replaceable Parts. +2 hammers on all cotton plantations.
(May want to include Flax as well for game purposes in order to increase the potential usefulness.)
See the attached pdf file. (Same as prior one.)
The last page has some additional ideas.
I have added 14 new techs, so that 5 columns become 7.
This spreads the benefits out and also adds some room for new buildings and wonders. I have suggested some.
In order to not slow down tech progress, one would also need to cut the cost of techs in the first column significantly.
For example, one could reduce the first column cost from 50 to 20, and have the second column be 40. Then the other columns should increase. The costs for a tech in the new 7th column such as Currency should be the same as currently (where it is in the 5th column.)
One could consider giving each civ 3 rather than 2 starting techs.
Please note that I have maintained the basic geometry of the current tree, columns of 7 techs each.
There are plenty of cross connections.
As with the current tree, not all of the prerequisites are logical necessities.
I do not seem to be able to get the attachment to attach.
So here is the information with worse formatting.
Mining CopperW Masonry BronzeW MilitaryStrategy IronW MetalCasting
Pottery TheWheel Trade Riding Construction Fortification Engineering
Pastoralism Tanning Textiles Property RecordKeeping Employment Aesthetics
Ritual CeremonialBurial Priesthood HereditaryRule Representation Writing Currency
Agriculture Baking Stargazing Mathematics Calendar Philosophy Law
Hunting Archery Fermentation OralTradition Mythology Divination Anatomy
Fishing Sailing MapMaking ShipBuilding Astronomy Navigation OrganizedReligion
Copper Working requires Mining but not Pottery.
The Wheel requires Pottery as well as Pastoralism.
Tanning requires Pastoralism and Hunting. Allows Tannery, rather than Textiles.
Ceremonial Burial requires Ritual and Pottery. Allows Cemetery rather than Ritual.
Baking requires Agriculture. Allows Bakery.
Bakery gives health benefits that are currently with Granary. +1 Food. Granary made cheaper.
Archery requires Hunting: Allows Archer rather than Hunting. Similar change to Longbow, etc.
Masonry requires Copper Working.
Trade requires the Wheel and Sailing. Allows Open Borders rather than Property. Trading Post.
Trading Post: 1 Free Merchant, +1 happiness with Mercantilism
Textiles requires Tanning and Agriculture. Still allows Weaver. Also allows Ropewalk.
Ropewalk in city is required to build: Caravel, Galleas, Galleon, Frigate, Privateer, Ship of the Line.
Priesthood requires Ceremonial Burial and either Agriculture or Hunting.
Priesthood can construct Temple, rather than Divination.
Stargazing requires Ceremonial Burial and Sailing. Allows Stonehenge rather than Ritual.
Stargazing is required for Pyramids in addition to Masonry.
Fermentation requires Baking and Pottery. Allows the Tavern rather than Employment.
Fermentation allows the Winery rather than Calendar.
Map Making requires Sailing and Tanning. Allows map trading rather than Astronomy.
Bronze Working requires Masonry.
Riding requires Trade and Textiles. Allows Horseman rather than Iron Working.
Property requires Trade and Masonry. Allows Inn.
Inn gives +2 coins and +25% trade route yield. Reduce Harbor to +25% trade route yield.
Mining Copper W. Masonry Bronze W. Military S. Iron W. Metal Casting
Pottery Wheel Trade Riding Construction Fortification Engineering
Pastoralism Tanning Textiles Property Record K. Employ. Aesthetics
Ritual Cer. Burial Priesthood Heredit. R. Represent. Writing Currency
Agriculture Baking Stargazing Mathematics Calendar Philosophy Law
Hunting Archery Ferment. Oral Trad. Mythology Divination Anatomy
Fishing Sailing Map Mak. Ship Build. Astronomy Navigation Organized Rel.
Hereditary Rule requires Priesthood and the Wheel. Allows Monarchy.
Mathematics requires Stargazing and Trade.
Oral Tradition requires Stargazing and Fermentation.
Ship Building requires Map Making.
Military Strategy requires Bronze Working and Riding.
Military Strategy allows Horse Archer (needs Riding and Archery),
Catapult (needs Mathematics), and War Elephant.
Construction requires Masonry and Mathematics.
Record Keeping requires Property and Textiles.
Representation requires Hereditary Rule. Allows Democracy.
Calendar requires Mathematics and Oral Tradition.
Mythology requires Oral Tradition. Allows Heroic Epic and Temple of Artemis (needs Construction)
Mythology needed for Statue of Zeus in addition to Metal Casting.
Mythology needed for Parthenon in addition to Aesthetics.
Astronomy requires Ship Building and Mathematics.
Iron Working requires Construction and Bronze Working.
Fortification requires Construction and Military Strategy.
Employment requires Record Keeping and Construction.
Writing requires Record Keeping and Oral Tradition.
Philosophy requires Representation and Mythology. No scientist to first Civ to discover.
Divination requires Mythology and Priesthood
Navigation requires Astronomy and Calendar.
Metal Casting requires Iron Working.
Engineering requires Iron Working and Fortification.
Aesthetics requires Philosophy and Mathematics. Allows Parthenon, which also needs Mythology.
Currency requires Employment and Writing
Law requires Writing and Philosophy.
Anatomy requires Philosophy and Divination. Scientist to first Civ to discover. +1 Health.
Anatomy leads to Medicine.
Organized Religion requires Divination and Hereditary Rule. Leads to Theology.
Organized Religion allows: Great Temple, Organized Religion, and Ankor Wat.
(Ankor Wat still requires Aesthetics.)
Theology requires Organized Religion and Philosophy. Allows Theocracy or maybe Dogma does.
Medicine requires Anatomy and Writing.
Additional suggested changes:
Trimene: In addition to Ship Building requires Copper Working. (To build the copper ram.)
Great Lighthouse: only +1 trade routes rather than +2.
Great Library requires Philosophy in addition to Writing.
Chichen Itza: change to a free wall in every city.
Confederation is allowed with Politics.
Caste System is allowed with Guilds or maybe with Artisanry.
Göbekli Tepe in Turkey, predates Stonehenge by thousands of years.
Great Wonder. Requires Ritual. (Stonehenge had been moved to Stargazing.)
Possible Powers: Each citizen specialist in any city gets +1 coins and +1 culture,
or gives one free priest in city where built,
or has the current ability of Stonehenge and then revise Stonehenge.
Possible revisions of Stonehenge: free cemetery in every city; would need to increase the cost.
Great Star Catalog. Requires Astronomy and Record Keeping. Great Wonder.
Each scientist specialist gets +2 science more than currently.
Sun Tzuʼs Art of War. Great Wonder. Requires Military Strategy and Writing.
All mounted units built start with Flanking II. All archery units built start with Drill II.
Baths of Caracella: Great Wonder. free Baths in every city. Requires Hydraulics and Medicine.
Grand Cannel: Great Wonder. Requires Hydraulics and an Aqueduct. Two free Merchants in the
city.
Cotton Gin. National Project. Requires Replaceable Parts. +2 hammers on all cotton plantations.
(May want to include Flax as well for game purposes in order to increase the potential usefulness.)
Moving right along into the Medieval Era:
Masonry
Current: The finest workers in stone are not copper or steel tools, but the gentle touches of air and water working at the leisure with a liberal allowance of time. -Henry David Thoreau
Suggested: I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. -Michelangelo
Once again, Thoreau is speaking against masonry; for him, the finest work in stone is apparently erosion. Better go with Michelangelo.
Machinery
Current: A god from the machine. -Menander
Suggested: We are becoming the servants in thought, as in action, of the machine we have created to serve us. -John Kenneth Galbraith
"A god from the machine"? That's a literary device, deus ex machina. It has nothing to do with machinery. It's not even a complete sentence!
Hydraulics
Current: Water is the driving force of all nature. -Leonardo da Vinci
Suggested: No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus
This one was tough. The da Vinci quote is mundane. I went with Heraclitus because the Hydraulics technology enables Levees and spreads irrigation. (Thus, no man ever steps in the same river twice because man changes the river.)
Dogma
Current: Clearly the person who accepts the church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the church teaches. -Thomas Aquinas
Suggested: The blood-dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. -W.B. Yeats
Yeats is awesome. Those are the fifth to the eight lines of "The Second Coming." If you want to include the opening couplets, they run as follows: Turning and turning in a widening gyre, The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. Like I said, awesome.
Printing
Current: What gunpowder did for war, the printing press has done for the mind. -Wendell Phillips
Suggested: Ideals jump across the hierarchies of the printed word. -Dennis Potter
I want to avoid quotes that simply identify one thing (printing) with something else (gunpowder); hence the switch.
Free Artistry renamed Music
Current: Fine art is that in which the hand, the head, and the heart of man go together. -John Ruskin
Suggested: If music be the food of love, play on. -William Shakespeare
Now that we have both Aesthetics and Artisanry, I'm not sure what "Free Artistry" is supposed to mean, or why it should be unavailable until the Medieval Era. Surely the ancient Greeks, among others, engaged in "Free Artistry"? I suggest you rename this technology Music. Music is, of course, a very old art form; but this technology would refer specifically to formal musical notation, composition, and instruments - developments which occurred in the Medieval Era across Europe, Arabia, India, and China.
Gunpowder
Current: You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word. -Al Capone
Suggested: Cannon to the right of them, Cannon to the left of them, Cannon in front of them, Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the jaws of Hell, Rode the six hundred. -Lord Tennyson
Guns come much later than Gunpowder; I suggest you move the Al Capone quote to Firearms. Since Gunpowder unlocks Bombards, I thought "The Coming of the Light Brigade," by Tennyson, was appropriate.
Let me know what you think of these changes. Am I changing too much? Going too fast? Does anyone have any other suggestions for new quotes or quotes they would like to see changed? If you don't stop me, I'll proceed right on through to the Modern Era. I already have a very thought-provoking quote in mind for Future Tech.
Masonry
Current: The finest workers in stone are not copper or steel tools, but the gentle touches of air and water working at the leisure with a liberal allowance of time. -Henry David Thoreau
Suggested: I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. -Michelangelo
Once again, Thoreau is speaking against masonry; for him, the finest work in stone is apparently erosion. Better go with Michelangelo.
Machinery
Current: A god from the machine. -Menander
Suggested: We are becoming the servants in thought, as in action, of the machine we have created to serve us. -John Kenneth Galbraith
"A god from the machine"? That's a literary device, deus ex machina. It has nothing to do with machinery. It's not even a complete sentence!
Hydraulics
Current: Water is the driving force of all nature. -Leonardo da Vinci
Suggested: No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -Heraclitus
This one was tough. The da Vinci quote is mundane. I went with Heraclitus because the Hydraulics technology enables Levees and spreads irrigation. (Thus, no man ever steps in the same river twice because man changes the river.)
Dogma
Current: Clearly the person who accepts the church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the church teaches. -Thomas Aquinas
Suggested: The blood-dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. -W.B. Yeats
Yeats is awesome. Those are the fifth to the eight lines of "The Second Coming." If you want to include the opening couplets, they run as follows: Turning and turning in a widening gyre, The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. Like I said, awesome.
Printing
Current: What gunpowder did for war, the printing press has done for the mind. -Wendell Phillips
Suggested: Ideals jump across the hierarchies of the printed word. -Dennis Potter
I want to avoid quotes that simply identify one thing (printing) with something else (gunpowder); hence the switch.
Free Artistry renamed Music
Current: Fine art is that in which the hand, the head, and the heart of man go together. -John Ruskin
Suggested: If music be the food of love, play on. -William Shakespeare
Now that we have both Aesthetics and Artisanry, I'm not sure what "Free Artistry" is supposed to mean, or why it should be unavailable until the Medieval Era. Surely the ancient Greeks, among others, engaged in "Free Artistry"? I suggest you rename this technology Music. Music is, of course, a very old art form; but this technology would refer specifically to formal musical notation, composition, and instruments - developments which occurred in the Medieval Era across Europe, Arabia, India, and China.
Gunpowder
Current: You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word. -Al Capone
Suggested: Cannon to the right of them, Cannon to the left of them, Cannon in front of them, Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the jaws of Hell, Rode the six hundred. -Lord Tennyson
Guns come much later than Gunpowder; I suggest you move the Al Capone quote to Firearms. Since Gunpowder unlocks Bombards, I thought "The Coming of the Light Brigade," by Tennyson, was appropriate.
Let me know what you think of these changes. Am I changing too much? Going too fast? Does anyone have any other suggestions for new quotes or quotes they would like to see changed? If you don't stop me, I'll proceed right on through to the Modern Era. I already have a very thought-provoking quote in mind for Future Tech.
Simon_Jester
Prince
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
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- 495
Is the early tree what really needs even more work and additions? I don't really want to wind up spending a larger proportion of the game in the Stone Age than I already do.
I'll use Seafaring, Priesthood (Tagore), Artisanry and Politics. I'm happy to change the Divination quote but that one, though good, is too long.
I'll use Machinery and Hydraulics. I agree that the erosion quote is less than ideal but the Michaelangelo quote is about stonecarving rather than masonry, lets keep looking. I like Yeats but the Aquinas quote was already suggested by another contributor and I think it works a bit better. Gunpowder quote is awesome but too long.
Artisanry is about the rise of the independent craftsman, Free Artistry is about the liberation of art from religious and political censorship and function.
Feel free to keep posting these suggestions, some good improvements so far. I prefer to keep quotes shorter rather than longer though.
Thanks for reposting this, I plan to look at it thoroughly once I've sorted what I'm doing in terms of terrain changes. I've decided that there is definitely no room for 2 more tech columns in the early tree, but 1 is a possibility.
There are a few quirks in the Ancient/Classical era that could be sorted by adding one more tech column (without slowing things down too much), I'll see how it goes.
How about this?
Divination
Current: Divine life is in touch with the whole universe on the analogy of the soul's contact with the body. -Muhammad Iqbal
Suggested: The truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise; and in this oracle he means to say that the wisdom of men is little or nothing. -Socrates
If we cannot quote the Mesoamerican diviners, we must fall back on the Mediterranean. An alternate take on that quote:
The truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise; and in this oracle he means to say: "This man among you, mortals, is wisest, who understands that his wisdom is worthless." -Socrates
Any thoughts on Printing?
Printing
Current: What gunpowder did for war, the printing press has done for the mind. -Wendell Phillips
Suggested: Ideals jump across the hierarchies of the printed word. -Dennis Potter
The reference to the "printed word" instead of the "printing press" extends the scope to inventors other than Gutenberg.
Here's another, and better at that:
Masonry
Current: The finest workers in stone are not copper or steel tools, but the gentle touches of air and water working at the leisure with a liberal allowance of time. -Henry David Thoreau
Suggested: There hammer on the anvil smote, there chisel clove and graver wrote; There forged was blade and bound was hilt; The delver mined, the mason built. -J.R.R. Tolkien
The quote is broad; but all those crafts are derivative of Masonry, in the tech tree and in life.
Aquinas did indeed disagree with the established Church on a number of points. I just feel that particular Aquinas quote lacks a certain punch. Consider:
Dogma
Current: Clearly the person who accepts the church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the church teaches. -Thomas Aquinas
Suggested: In God's tribunal, those who return are always received. But the Church presumes they are not sincere; hence she does not protect them from the sentence of death. -Thomas Aquinas
Would you consider an abridged version?
Gunpowder
Current: You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word. -Al Capone
Suggested: Cannon in front of them, Volley'd and thunder'd; Stormed at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well; Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell; Rode the six hundred. -Lord Tennyson
Ah, then perhaps the Aesthetics quote belongs at Free Artistry. (Note that George Sand was a necessary pseudonym for a female novelist. That quote should be attributed to Baroness Dudevant.)
Aesthetics
Current: Art for art's sake is an empty phrase. Art for the sake of truth, art for the sake of the good and the beautiful, that is the faith that I am searching for. -George Sand
Suggested: I believe in the might of design, the mystery of colour, the redemption of all things by Beauty everlasting, and the message of Art that has made these hands blessed. -George Bernard Shaw
Free Artistry
Current: Fine art is that in which the hand, the head, and the heart of man go together. -John Ruskin
Suggested: Art for art's sake is an empty phrase. Art for the sake of truth, art for the sake of the good and the beautiful, that is the faith that I am searching for. -Baroness Dudevant
Thanks for the comments; will do.
@Azoth:
Using Masonry, Aesthetics, Free Artistry, abridged Gunpowder.
Still not happy with Divination, it needs to be a bit more 'primal' and not easily identified with a specific culture. Though I am quite tempted to go with something a bit irreverent: "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him." - Ian Anderson
Despite it's Gutenberg connotations I prefer the simplicity and power by analogy of the original Printing quote. I still prefer the original Aquinas quote for Dogma, the new one is a bit too narrow in focus.
@Howard:
Though I'm still too busy with the terrain stuff to examine all the tech ideas I thought I'd have a look at the additional suggestions section of your proposal.
In 0.9.4 I changed Shipbuilding to also require Construction - which requires Copper Working.
Yes, this wonder is stupidly overpowered on naval maps. Done.
Since Philosophy requires Writing, this would be akin to shifting the wonder to Philosophy. If it's just for thematic reasons then I don't think it's necessary. It allows the Great Library to also represent other 'great libraries' of antiquity, such as the much earlier one at Nineveh.
This wonder makes no sense the way Firaxis designed it, even the name is wrong. We're discussing redesigning it completely over in the buildings feedback thread. The only wonder that makes any sense to me to give a free wall to every city is the Great Wall but I think it's stats are more or less fine.
It was shifted to Priesthood in 0.9.4. I don't want all the Labour and Economic civics to be available in the same section of the tree and Caste System fit well in the religious part.
Stonehenge itself predates the beginning of the game by thousands of years so it needs to be available very early. There are many archeoastronomical monuments that predate Stonehenge (Nabta Playa in Nubia is another example) but these are too far outside the timeframe of the game to warrant inclusion I think.
Quite a few ancient civilizations kept star records, I'm not aware of any that were more famous or extensive than others. Although it's not a perfect fit, the Nazca Lines are the Wonder I have pencilled in for the Astronomy tech.
I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.
I think free baths would be a good bonus for a wonder to give but I don't think the Baths of Caracalla are a good choice. I'm thinking the Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro and I might have some art that is reasonably appropriate for it.
I'm assuming you mean the Grand Canal of China with this. I'd love to add that but it really requires art on a scale similar to the Great Wall to do it justice and no such art exists.
I've not looked at projects before but they seem to be extremely limited in what can be done with them. Something like this is probably better suited to a building or national wonder, and probably better served by being including all the textile resources. Textile Mill perhaps. I don't yet know if there's scope for something along these lines yet.
Using Masonry, Aesthetics, Free Artistry, abridged Gunpowder.
Still not happy with Divination, it needs to be a bit more 'primal' and not easily identified with a specific culture. Though I am quite tempted to go with something a bit irreverent: "In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him." - Ian Anderson
Despite it's Gutenberg connotations I prefer the simplicity and power by analogy of the original Printing quote. I still prefer the original Aquinas quote for Dogma, the new one is a bit too narrow in focus.
@Howard:
Though I'm still too busy with the terrain stuff to examine all the tech ideas I thought I'd have a look at the additional suggestions section of your proposal.
In 0.9.4 I changed Shipbuilding to also require Construction - which requires Copper Working.
Yes, this wonder is stupidly overpowered on naval maps. Done.
Since Philosophy requires Writing, this would be akin to shifting the wonder to Philosophy. If it's just for thematic reasons then I don't think it's necessary. It allows the Great Library to also represent other 'great libraries' of antiquity, such as the much earlier one at Nineveh.
This wonder makes no sense the way Firaxis designed it, even the name is wrong. We're discussing redesigning it completely over in the buildings feedback thread. The only wonder that makes any sense to me to give a free wall to every city is the Great Wall but I think it's stats are more or less fine.
It was shifted to Priesthood in 0.9.4. I don't want all the Labour and Economic civics to be available in the same section of the tree and Caste System fit well in the religious part.
Stonehenge itself predates the beginning of the game by thousands of years so it needs to be available very early. There are many archeoastronomical monuments that predate Stonehenge (Nabta Playa in Nubia is another example) but these are too far outside the timeframe of the game to warrant inclusion I think.
Quite a few ancient civilizations kept star records, I'm not aware of any that were more famous or extensive than others. Although it's not a perfect fit, the Nazca Lines are the Wonder I have pencilled in for the Astronomy tech.
I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.
I think free baths would be a good bonus for a wonder to give but I don't think the Baths of Caracalla are a good choice. I'm thinking the Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro and I might have some art that is reasonably appropriate for it.
I'm assuming you mean the Grand Canal of China with this. I'd love to add that but it really requires art on a scale similar to the Great Wall to do it justice and no such art exists.
I've not looked at projects before but they seem to be extremely limited in what can be done with them. Something like this is probably better suited to a building or national wonder, and probably better served by being including all the textile resources. Textile Mill perhaps. I don't yet know if there's scope for something along these lines yet.
Simon_Jester
Prince
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Messages
- 495
My only concern is that this makes it far less desirable on non-naval maps: if I only have two or three coastal cities in the ancient era, the incentive to build the Great Lighthouse goes down a lot.
Um. Stonehenge does not predate the beginning of the game chronologically; it dates to ~3000 BC at the earliest and the iconic stones weren't raised until considerably later. Granted that it does predate the rise of permanent large settlements in Britain, though, as I understand it.
I'd say it's not inappropriate.
I think the "+2 hammers on textile crop plantations" is far too limited for the scope of a wonder. A given civilization will only have a few tiles like that to exploit, and compared to other wonders, even other national wonders, a bonus of +4 or +8 hammers in the entire civilization is much too weak.
Moreover, most national wonders denote something unusually impressive about a civilization- its greatest steel mills (steel being vitally important to all industrial society), its museums, its national epics and monuments. Things like that. But "this is our country's biggest textile mill?" I don't think so.
Moving through the Renaissance into the Industrial Era:
Humanism
Current: The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion. -Arthur C. Clarke
Suggested: I am a man. Nothing human is alien to me. -Terence
The hostility to religion expressed by Clarke is at odds with Renaissance humanism, whose major focus was the human condition. By contrast, that line from Terence became a byword for the humanist attitude, both secular and religious. I can suggest more flowery alternatives if you prefer; but the Clarke quote is wholly inappropriate.
Replaceable Parts
Current: I can make just such ones if I had tools, and I could make tools if I had tools to make them with. -Eli Whitney
Suggested: In my mind, I change the construction and make improvements, without ever drawing a sketch; and when completed, all the parts fit. -Nikola Tesla
At long last, we have a quote about replaceable parts from a gifted inventor with the opportunity to make use of them. I can't say I liked the Aristotle quote from BtS, either.
Labour Unions
Current: Where labour unions are most firmly organized, there are the rights of the people most respected. -Samuel Gompers
Suggested: Let the workers organize. Let the toilers assemble. Let their crystallized voice proclaim their injustices and demand their privileges. Let all thoughtful citizens sustain them. -John L. Lewis
I was looking for a more engaging quote: a call to action, as it were. If you don't much care for Lewis, I might suggest some of Gompers' more interesting remarks:
Photography
Current: Photography is a major force in explaining man to man -Edward Steichen
Suggested: A picture shows me at a glance what it takes a dozen pages to expound. -Ivan Turgenev
The quote from Turgenev is a literary precursor to the adage "A picture is worth a thousand words," which was coined by an advertising agent and wrongly attributed to Confucius.
Journalism
Current: Today's gossip is tomorrow's headline. -Walter Winchell
Suggested: Put it before them briefly so they will read it, clearly so they will appreciate it, picturesquely so they will remember it and, above all, accurately so they will be guided by its light. -Joseph Pulitzer
Much journalism may be gossip but it's not something to boast about.
If you're looking for something snappier, how about: I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire
Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: It will be a bitter pill to her; that is, like other bitter pills, it will have two moments' ill favour, and then be swallowed and forgotten. -Jane Austen
Looking for laughs? Consider instead: When at last we are sure You've been properly pilled, Then a few paper forms Must be properly filled So that you and your heirs May be properly billed. -Dr. Seuss
Feminism
Current: Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. -Rebecca West
Suggested: Women hold up half the sky. -Chinese proverb
Another take on feminism; controversial, perhaps, because it was a favourite proverb of Chairman Mao.
Irreverent is good; but I would prefer the quote have something to do with divination, prophecy, oracles, or the like. I should be able to find something: if not in earnest, then in mockery.
Humanism
Current: The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion. -Arthur C. Clarke
Suggested: I am a man. Nothing human is alien to me. -Terence
The hostility to religion expressed by Clarke is at odds with Renaissance humanism, whose major focus was the human condition. By contrast, that line from Terence became a byword for the humanist attitude, both secular and religious. I can suggest more flowery alternatives if you prefer; but the Clarke quote is wholly inappropriate.
Replaceable Parts
Current: I can make just such ones if I had tools, and I could make tools if I had tools to make them with. -Eli Whitney
Suggested: In my mind, I change the construction and make improvements, without ever drawing a sketch; and when completed, all the parts fit. -Nikola Tesla
At long last, we have a quote about replaceable parts from a gifted inventor with the opportunity to make use of them. I can't say I liked the Aristotle quote from BtS, either.
Labour Unions
Current: Where labour unions are most firmly organized, there are the rights of the people most respected. -Samuel Gompers
Suggested: Let the workers organize. Let the toilers assemble. Let their crystallized voice proclaim their injustices and demand their privileges. Let all thoughtful citizens sustain them. -John L. Lewis
I was looking for a more engaging quote: a call to action, as it were. If you don't much care for Lewis, I might suggest some of Gompers' more interesting remarks:
- What does Labour want? We want more schoolhouses and less jails; more books and less arsenals; more justice and less revenge; in fact, more of the opportunities to cultivate our better natures. -Samuel Gompers
- Show me the country that has no strikes and I will show you the country in which there is no liberty. -Samuel Gompers
Photography
Current: Photography is a major force in explaining man to man -Edward Steichen
Suggested: A picture shows me at a glance what it takes a dozen pages to expound. -Ivan Turgenev
The quote from Turgenev is a literary precursor to the adage "A picture is worth a thousand words," which was coined by an advertising agent and wrongly attributed to Confucius.
Journalism
Current: Today's gossip is tomorrow's headline. -Walter Winchell
Suggested: Put it before them briefly so they will read it, clearly so they will appreciate it, picturesquely so they will remember it and, above all, accurately so they will be guided by its light. -Joseph Pulitzer
Much journalism may be gossip but it's not something to boast about.
If you're looking for something snappier, how about: I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire
Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: It will be a bitter pill to her; that is, like other bitter pills, it will have two moments' ill favour, and then be swallowed and forgotten. -Jane Austen
Looking for laughs? Consider instead: When at last we are sure You've been properly pilled, Then a few paper forms Must be properly filled So that you and your heirs May be properly billed. -Dr. Seuss
Feminism
Current: Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. -Rebecca West
Suggested: Women hold up half the sky. -Chinese proverb
Another take on feminism; controversial, perhaps, because it was a favourite proverb of Chairman Mao.
Irreverent is good; but I would prefer the quote have something to do with divination, prophecy, oracles, or the like. I should be able to find something: if not in earnest, then in mockery.
ripple01
Emperor
Azoth, I'm enjoying your quote suggestions and am pilfering a few to use for my own mod.
Xyth, I like Azoth's quote suggested for Humanism, but want to make a suggestion which I am using.
I am using the current Gallilei Scientific Method quote for Humanism (I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. ) Seems a better fit for the ideals of humanism than scientific method to me.
The quote I am using for Scientific Method in its stead is by Isaac Asimov: The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny ...' although I'm sure Azoth might have some good suggestions for that as well.
Cheers!
Here a couple of alternatives I will suggest to some of Azoth's
Architecture: In the architectural structure, man's pride, man's triumph over gravitation, man's will to power, assume a visible form." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Ritual: Ritual will always mean throwing away something: destroying our corn or wine upon the altar of our gods." - Gilbert K. Chesterton
Military Tradition: If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country? - General George S. Patton
Gunpowder: The real use of gunpowder is to make all men tall." - Thomas Carlyle
Xyth, I like Azoth's quote suggested for Humanism, but want to make a suggestion which I am using.
I am using the current Gallilei Scientific Method quote for Humanism (I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. ) Seems a better fit for the ideals of humanism than scientific method to me.
The quote I am using for Scientific Method in its stead is by Isaac Asimov: The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny ...' although I'm sure Azoth might have some good suggestions for that as well.
Cheers!
Here a couple of alternatives I will suggest to some of Azoth's
Architecture: In the architectural structure, man's pride, man's triumph over gravitation, man's will to power, assume a visible form." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Ritual: Ritual will always mean throwing away something: destroying our corn or wine upon the altar of our gods." - Gilbert K. Chesterton
Military Tradition: If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country? - General George S. Patton
Gunpowder: The real use of gunpowder is to make all men tall." - Thomas Carlyle
In this case I think it's more important to have a naval-themed Wonder balanced on naval-themed maps. We could always add a second, smaller benefit to compensate though.
Yeah I'm getting my dates confused, the site was used thousands of years before the game begins but the monument itself only started resembling it's final form during the Bronze Age.
There's bound to be art available for a Sun Tzu wonder somewhere.
Yeah, sounds weird to me too. The Ironworks National Wonder is already pushing the definition a bit.
I'll use Humanism, Replaceable Parts, Labour Unions (Lewis), Photography, Journalism (Pulitzer)
I prefer to keep the current Feminism one as is for this tech I think it is essential that the quote is by a woman and that's one of the most famous quotes from modern Feminism.
I'll use the Dr. Seuss quote for Pharmaceuticals for now but maybe we can find something a bit more specific.
Thanks for these! I'll use Architecture and Gunpowder. I like the Asimov quote too, it would be good to use it somewhere but prefer the Terence/Galileo combination for Humanism/Scientific Method.
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