Feedback: Tech Tree

[Howard Mahler]

I should have made it clearer that this was all written (and originally posted) a while ago with respect to version 0.9.3 and my proposed changes to the tech tree.

Look up the Göbekli Tepe in Turkey if you have not done so.
It is a very old and very extensive ancient wonder that has come to light in the last two decades.

It is a shame that artwork limits what you can have for Wonders.

The ancient star catalogue that is probably the most famous is Ptolemy of Alexandria,
although it was based on the work of others.
"The Almagest is the only surviving comprehensive ancient treatise on astronomy. Babylonian astronomers had developed arithmetical techniques for calculating astronomical phenomena; Greek astronomers such as Hipparchus had produced geometric models for calculating celestial motions. Ptolemy, however, claimed to have derived his geometrical models from selected astronomical observations by his predecessors spanning more than 800 years, though astronomers have for centuries suspected that his models' parameters were adopted independently of observations.[19] Ptolemy presented his astronomical models in convenient tables, which could be used to compute the future or past position of the planets.[20] The Almagest also contains a star catalogue, which is an appropriated version of a catalogue created by Hipparchus."

@Howard:

Though I'm still too busy with the terrain stuff to examine all the tech ideas I thought I'd have a look at the additional suggestions section of your proposal.



In 0.9.4 I changed Shipbuilding to also require Construction - which requires Copper Working.



Yes, this wonder is stupidly overpowered on naval maps. Done.



Since Philosophy requires Writing, this would be akin to shifting the wonder to Philosophy. If it's just for thematic reasons then I don't think it's necessary. It allows the Great Library to also represent other 'great libraries' of antiquity, such as the much earlier one at Nineveh.



This wonder makes no sense the way Firaxis designed it, even the name is wrong. We're discussing redesigning it completely over in the buildings feedback thread. The only wonder that makes any sense to me to give a free wall to every city is the Great Wall but I think it's stats are more or less fine.





It was shifted to Priesthood in 0.9.4. I don't want all the Labour and Economic civics to be available in the same section of the tree and Caste System fit well in the religious part.



Stonehenge itself predates the beginning of the game by thousands of years so it needs to be available very early. There are many archeoastronomical monuments that predate Stonehenge (Nabta Playa in Nubia is another example) but these are too far outside the timeframe of the game to warrant inclusion I think.



Quite a few ancient civilizations kept star records, I'm not aware of any that were more famous or extensive than others. Although it's not a perfect fit, the Nazca Lines are the Wonder I have pencilled in for the Astronomy tech.



I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.



I think free baths would be a good bonus for a wonder to give but I don't think the Baths of Caracalla are a good choice. I'm thinking the Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro and I might have some art that is reasonably appropriate for it.



I'm assuming you mean the Grand Canal of China with this. I'd love to add that but it really requires art on a scale similar to the Great Wall to do it justice and no such art exists.



I've not looked at projects before but they seem to be extremely limited in what can be done with them. Something like this is probably better suited to a building or national wonder, and probably better served by being including all the textile resources. Textile Mill perhaps. I don't yet know if there's scope for something along these lines yet.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Replaceable Parts
Current: I can make just such ones if I had tools, and I could make tools if I had tools to make them with. -Eli Whitney
Suggested: In my mind, I change the construction and make improvements, without ever drawing a sketch; and when completed, all the parts fit. -Nikola Tesla

At long last, we have a quote about replaceable parts from a gifted inventor with the opportunity to make use of them. I can't say I liked the Aristotle quote from BtS, either.

Hey, I liked that quote! In fact, I suggested it. And it is about replaceable parts... about the invention of them, by a man who more or less invented the concept of interchangeable parts.

In this case I think it's more important to have a naval-themed Wonder balanced on naval-themed maps. We could always add a second, smaller benefit to compensate though.

Yes, let's. Any ideas? Making the city it's built in a major trade entrepot, the way Alexandria was in real life?

Yeah, sounds weird to me too. The Ironworks National Wonder is already pushing the definition a bit.

I think it makes sense. The great industrial areas of a nation, with the most concentrated heavy manufacturing, can be of great strategic significance in war and in peace- the English Midlands, the German Ruhr, the Americans' steel mills at Pittsburgh and around the Great Lakes.

I'll use Humanism, Replaceable Parts, Labour Unions (Lewis), Photography, Journalism (Pulitzer)

Grumble!

 

[Azoth]

I'm in two minds about bringing this wonder back. It's a work of literature (albeit one that is perfectly relevant to Civ) and that opens the door for other great works of literature to be included as World Wonders. While I don't think that only architecture should be considered wondrous there still needs to be something to 'build'. I think I've seen it done as 'Sun Tzu's War Academy' before but I don't know if that's appropriate or not.

I'm against this wonder. I agree that there needs to be something memorable, something wondrous to build. More to the point, I argue we have something much more elegant in place of 'Sun Tzu's War Academy,' 'Leonardo's Workshop,' 'J.S. Bach's Cathedral,' and the like. We have Great People! So da Vinci (Great Engineer) can go ahead and invent Machinery on the spot. Bach (Great Artist) can create a Great Work in whichever city he chooses. And Sun Tzu (Great General) can found his famed Armory all on his own. It's the same reason we don't need a 'Plato's Academy' or 'Aristotle's Lyceum' World Wonder. It's all taken care of by Great People.

Azoth, I'm enjoying your quote suggestions and am pilfering a few to use for my own mod.

Pilfer away! I must say I'm rather enjoying tracking them all down.

Thanks for these! I'll use Architecture and Gunpowder. I like the Asimov quote too, it would be good to use it somewhere but prefer the Terence/Galileo combination for Humanism/Scientific Method.

The Gunpowder quote is good but I think I prefer my Architecture quote: the experience of an actual architect (Le Corbusier) carries more weight than the pontification of an armchair philosopher (Nietzsche). Surely we've already quoted Nietzsche somewhere else? That said, I'm confident we can slot Asimov in somewhere; I haven't reached the Modern Era, after all.

Hey, I liked that quote! In fact, I suggested it. And it is about replaceable parts... about the invention of them, by a man who more or less invented the concept of interchangeable parts.

Ah, sorry, when I saw the name Eli Whitney I thought of the cotton gin, and thought no more. Though I see now that Whitney, as a maker of muskets, was largely concerned with replaceable parts in firearms. That probably falls under the Firearms technology. Still, I have no problem restoring your suggested quote.

Yes, let's. Any ideas? Making the city it's built in a major trade entrepot, the way Alexandria was in real life?

Well, the simplest thing would be to have +1 trade route (for the city with the Lighthouse) and a further +1 trade route/coastal city. Is that too underwhelming?

 

[ripple01]

The Gunpowder quote is good but I think I prefer my Architecture quote: the experience of an actual architect (Le Corbusier) carries more weight than the pontification of an armchair philosopher (Nietzsche). Surely we've already quoted Nietzsche somewhere else? That said, I'm confident we can slot Asimov in somewhere; I haven't reached the Modern Era, after all.

True, Nietzsche is used in stock BtS for Superconductors: "What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome." I agree that it is nice to have some diversity in who the quotes are taken from and I think the Le Corbusier quote is representative of the tech.

 

[Xyth]

It is a shame that artwork limits what you can have for Wonders.

Yeah. While I can make moderate alterations I'm no 3D artist so we're resigned to use what people have already made. As far as I know there are no building creators still working on Civ4, at least none taking requests.

Hey, I liked that quote! In fact, I suggested it. And it is about replaceable parts... about the invention of them, by a man who more or less invented the concept of interchangeable parts.

Ah, sorry, when I saw the name Eli Whitney I thought of the cotton gin, and thought no more. Though I see now that Whitney, as a maker of muskets, was largely concerned with replaceable parts in firearms. That probably falls under the Firearms technology. Still, I have no problem restoring your suggested quote.

Ah sorry, there's been quite a few contributors to quotes recently and I forget which are which. I admit I primarily went with the Tesla quote because, well, it's Tesla, and Eli Whitney is not someone I've heard of. Now that I've read up on him I think it makes sense to switch it back and there's bound to be a tech somewhere later in the tree that could use a quote from Tesla.

Yes, let's. Any ideas? Making the city it's built in a major trade entrepot, the way Alexandria was in real life?

Well, the simplest thing would be to have +1 trade route (for the city with the Lighthouse) and a further +1 trade route/coastal city. Is that too underwhelming?

Possibly a sizeable % bonus to commerce from trade routes in that city only.

I'm against this wonder. I agree that there needs to be something memorable, something wondrous to build. More to the point, I argue we have something much more elegant in place of 'Sun Tzu's War Academy,' 'Leonardo's Workshop,' 'J.S. Bach's Cathedral,' and the like. We have Great People! So da Vinci (Great Engineer) can go ahead and invent Machinery on the spot. Bach (Great Artist) can create a Great Work in whichever city he chooses. And Sun Tzu (Great General) can found his famed Armory all on his own. It's the same reason we don't need a 'Plato's Academy' or 'Aristotle's Lyceum' World Wonder. It's all taken care of by Great People.

Good point.

The Gunpowder quote is good but I think I prefer my Architecture quote: the experience of an actual architect (Le Corbusier) carries more weight than the pontification of an armchair philosopher (Nietzsche).

While I agree that a quote from an architect should carry more weight, in this instance I think Nietzsche's description is perfect. To me Le Corbusier is describing architecture as art and a 'learned game', but Nietzsche is going beyond that and defining what that actually means to human history and accomplishment. Given Civ4 is a game all about accomplishment via building, I prefer the quote that captures that essence.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Possibly a sizeable % bonus to commerce from trade routes in that city only [for the Lighthouse]

Yes, this arguably makes sense. Historically, the Lighthouse (and the rest of the great port infrastructure along with it) served a number of purposes- they made Alexandria a strong naval base, but especially made it an outstanding trade entrepot and helped open up Egypt to more Mediterranean commerce. Giving "Alexandria" a bonus trade route, or bonus income from same, would work great.

While I agree that a quote from an architect should carry more weight, in this instance I think Nietzsche's description is perfect. To me Le Corbusier is describing architecture as art and a 'learned game', but Nietzsche is going beyond that and defining what that actually means to human history and accomplishment. Given Civ4 is a game all about accomplishment via building, I prefer the quote that captures that essence.

Er, which quote again?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hmmm. A few thoughts on the modern tech tree.

I'm not at all sure "Fission," "Nuclear Weapons," and "Nuclear Power" should be three separate techs. Historically, it really only takes (took) about five to eight years for a serious scientific establishment to develop nuclear weapons at all. I'd argue that while it's good for the nuke weapons to require rocketry, that doesn't need a separate tech- just make ICBMs and Tactical Nukes require both fission and rocketry. Nuclear power would then have fission as a direct prerequisite.

it screws up the symmetry of the tree, though, I know. That's gonna be complicated to resolve. I could try... some day. It's gonna be a busy month for me.

I think we need at least one more row of techs, and we may want to start the 'taper down' of the tree from seven techs per row down towards one a little earlier. I'll see what I can do.

 

[Azoth]

I'm not at all sure "Fission," "Nuclear Weapons," and "Nuclear Power" should be three separate techs. Historically, it really only takes (took) about five to eight years for a serious scientific establishment to develop nuclear weapons at all. I'd argue that while it's good for the nuke weapons to require rocketry, that doesn't need a separate tech- just make ICBMs and Tactical Nukes require both fission and rocketry. Nuclear power would then have fission as a direct prerequisite.

I agree with you here. Frankly, I think the entire top branch of the tech tree could use a rework. The early Mining-Bronze Working-Iron Working-Steel Working sequence is fine. After that, we get a series of vague names: Military Conduct, Military Science, Military Tradition. A few military tactics - Formation, Entrenchment - are thrown in, followed by those three separate nuclear technologies. By comparison, the rest of the tech tree focuses on clearly social and technical advances. No time is devoted to artistic movements (Scholasticism, Romanticism, Impressionism) or even political philosophy (Liberalism, Communism, Fascism). The military branch really needs to be brought up to par.

 

[Azoth]

More Industrial Era quotes, and others:

Dogma
Current: Clearly the person who accepts the church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the church teaches. -Thomas Aquinas
Suggested: When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. -Anais Nin

Third time's the charm.


Ballistics
Current: The second amendment says we have the right to bear arms, not to bear artillery. -Robin Williams
Suggested: Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. -Frederick the Great

I much prefer the original BtS quote here.


Metallurgy
Current: There never was a good knife made of bad steel. -Benjamin Franklin
Suggested: The purest ore is produced from the hottest furnace; the brightest thunderbolt is elicited from the darkest storm. -Charles Caleb Colton

A better fit for the technology that unlocks Aluminum and the Ironworks, I think.


Explosives
Current: A bazooka is the skeleton key of the impatient. -Will Timmins
Suggested: You can bomb the world to pieces but you can't bomb it into peace. -Michael Franti

The Timmins quote is decent but I do not know who Will Timmins is or in what context he made that statement. (A brief search revealed nothing.)
The Franti quote is admittedly an imperfect substitute. Here are some alternatives, but I am not completely satisfied with them either:

Custom is petrification; nothing but dynamite can dislodge it for a century. -Mark Twain
Nobel believe he had invented a tool of destruction, dynamite, which would make war so senseless that it would become impossible. He was wrong. -Alva Myrdal


Surveillance
Current: Secrecy, being an instrument of conspiracy, ought never to be the system of a regular government. -Jeremy Bentham
Suggested: Who watches the watchmen? -Juvenal

Bentham is fine; but Juvenal is iconic. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


Globalization
Current: It has been said that arguing against globalization is like arguing against the laws of gravity. -Kofi Annan
Suggested: The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the image of a global village. -Marshall McLuhan

As the scholar who coined the expression "the global village," Marshall McLuhan is a better fit.

I prefer to keep the current Feminism one as is for this tech I think it is essential that the quote is by a woman and that's one of the most famous quotes from modern Feminism.

Makes sense.

I'll use the Dr. Seuss quote for Pharmaceuticals for now but maybe we can find something a bit more specific.

This one is shorter and to the point:

Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: I asked for bread and was given a tranquilizer. -Malcolm Muggeridge

Possibly a sizeable % bonus to commerce from trade routes in that city only.

Hmmm. The Temple of Artemis already gives a 100% percent bonus to trade route commerce. Granted, the Great Lighthouse is a better candidate for that bonus. But then what becomes of the Temple?

 

[Simon_Jester]

This one is shorter and to the point:

Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: I asked for bread and was given a tranquilizer. -Malcolm Muggeridge

I'm not sure I like it, because the advent of modern pharmaceuticals really is a huge benefit for life in the developed (and, heck, developing). You want a quote that supports the idea that this is a genuine advance- otherwise, it'd be like having some meathead babble about ********s as the Feminism quote.

In general, Civ techs should be presented in a positive light, I think, unless they are meant to convey serious moral ambiguity- Dogma or Surveillance might be, but Pharmaceuticals is not.

Hmmm. The Temple of Artemis already gives a 100% percent bonus to trade route commerce. Granted, the Great Lighthouse is a better candidate for that bonus. But then what becomes of the Temple?

Well, the Temple of Artemis is really a center of religious and artistic beauty- one of the hallmarks of classical Greek architecture, although that honor is shared by the Parthenon. If the Parthenon weren't in the game I'd say give the Temple of Artemis the GPP bonus, but that's already taken.

Could we give the Temple of Artemis some kind of culture-related boost? As it stands, the only wonders I can recall strongly affecting civilization-wide culture are the Sistine Chapel and the Eiffel Tower.

 

[Xyth]

Yes, this arguably makes sense. Historically, the Lighthouse (and the rest of the great port infrastructure along with it) served a number of purposes- they made Alexandria a strong naval base, but especially made it an outstanding trade entrepot and helped open up Egypt to more Mediterranean commerce. Giving "Alexandria" a bonus trade route, or bonus income from same, would work great.

Hmmm. The Temple of Artemis already gives a 100% percent bonus to trade route commerce. Granted, the Great Lighthouse is a better candidate for that bonus. But then what becomes of the Temple?

I don't want to displace another wonder's bonus to compensate for the Great Lighthouse being made a little weaker (even though it might be worth swapping the Temple of Artemis' bonus elsewhere). I don't have any ideas at the moment but I'm sure we'll arrive at something suitable. I think it should be a moderate bonus though, on the scale of a building rather than a wonder.

I'm not at all sure "Fission," "Nuclear Weapons," and "Nuclear Power" should be three separate techs

I agree with you here. Frankly, I think the entire top branch of the tech tree could use a rework. ... The military branch really needs to be brought up to par.

That is definitely the weakest part of the techtree, it was certainly the toughest section for me to piece together. When it comes to military history my knowledge and interest tapers off quickly with the invention of firearms.

I think we need at least one more row of techs, and we may want to start the 'taper down' of the tree from seven techs per row down towards one a little earlier. I'll see what I can do.

Do you mean row or column? If column, I agree. A new row would be a nightmare to introduce at this stage.

More Industrial Era quotes, and others:

I'll use Ballistics (not sure why I ever changed it), Explosives (Franti), Surveillance and Globalization.

The Metallurgy quotes are both metaphors which isn't ideal but I prefer the simplicity of Franklin. The second half of the Colton quote feels unrelated but the quote becomes too commonsense without it. And sorry but I still think that the current Aquinas quote captures the essence of the Dogma tech much better.

I'm not sure I like it, because the advent of modern pharmaceuticals really is a huge benefit for life in the developed (and, heck, developing). You want a quote that supports the idea that this is a genuine advance- otherwise, it'd be like having some meathead babble about ********s as the Feminism quote.

In general, Civ techs should be presented in a positive light, I think, unless they are meant to convey serious moral ambiguity- Dogma or Surveillance might be, but Pharmaceuticals is not.

Yeah I agree. Back to the drawing board for Pharmaceuticals I'm afraid.

 

[Azoth]

Now for some quote swaps.

Swap 1
One of the quirks in the Ancient Era tech tree is the interaction between Record Keeping (+1 trade route/city, Redistribution civic), Oral Tradition (Theatres, the Heroic Epic, Tradition civic), and Writing (Libraries, The Great Library, technology trading.) First, it raises the question of how record keeping is possible without writing. Following the example of BtS, I would rename 'Record Keeping' 'Writing'; and rename 'Writing' (that is, the writing of books) 'Literature.' Oral tradition, meanwhile, sounds less like a technology and more like a civic. It also predates the theatre by several centuries and seems better suited for the first column of the tech tree. Thus, I would rename 'Oral Tradition' 'Oratory.' Other possible names include Performance Art and Drama. The Record Keeping quote can be temporarily moved to Welfare; though I suspect that technology, too, will be renamed, to avoid conflict with the Social Welfare civic. In summary:

Record Keeping renamed Writing
Current: The white man knows how to make everything but he does not know how to distribute it. -Sitting Bull
Suggested: True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read. -Pliny the Elder

Oral Tradition renamed Oratory
Current: Be a craftsman in speech that thou mayest be stronger, for the strength of one is the tongue, and speech is mightier than all fighting. -Ptahhotep
Suggested: No change.

Writing renamed Literature
Current: True glory consists in doing what deserves to be written; in writing what deserves to be read. -Pliny the Elder
Suggested: I cannot live without books. -Thomas Jefferson

Welfare
Current: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? -Reg (John Cleese), 'The Life of Brian'
Suggested: The white man knows how to make everything but he does not know how to distribute it. -Sitting Bull


Swap 2
This one is simpler. Nutrition and Refrigeration share the same quote. One of them must be changed. Just as the Physics quote is a law of mechanics, so the new Refrigeration quote can be a law of thermodynamics.

Refrigeration
Current: Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are. -Anthelme Brillat-Savarin
Suggested: By the expenditure of a like quantity of work, the same amount of heat may be produced. -Rudolf Clausius

Nutrition
Current: You are what you eat. -Proverb
Suggested: Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are. -Anthelme Brillat-Savarin

I'm not sure I like it, because the advent of modern pharmaceuticals really is a huge benefit [...] In general, Civ techs should be presented in a positive light, I think, unless they are meant to convey serious moral ambiguity.

Oh, I agree; but eminent men and women everywhere seem to disagree. All the quotes I could find imply that pharmaceuticals are unnecessary, ineffective, emasculating, soulless, or absurdly expensive.
This is the best I could come up with; and even then, it is intended ironically:

Pharmaceuticals
Current: The trouble with being a hypochondriac these days is that antibiotics have cured all the good diseases. -Caskie Stinnett
Suggested: It is an age of pills. -Malcolm Muggeridge

We could broaden the definition of this technology to include the whole of modern medicine. People have nice things to say about their doctors, much as they dislike the medicines they dispense.

I don't want to displace another wonder's bonus to compensate for the Great Lighthouse being made a little weaker (even though it might be worth swapping the Temple of Artemis' bonus elsewhere). I don't have any ideas at the moment but I'm sure we'll arrive at something suitable. I think it should be a moderate bonus though, on the scale of a building rather than a wonder.

We could rework The Great Lighthouse entirely. What about +1 hammer on Water tiles, the bonus attached to the Moai Statues National Wonder in BtS?
Maybe throw in +1 trade route for the Lighthouse city as well?

The Metallurgy quotes are both metaphors which isn't ideal but I prefer the simplicity of Franklin. The second half of the Colton quote feels unrelated but the quote becomes too commonsense without it.

Fair enough; but the Franklin quote doesn't capture the full scope of modern metallurgy: the massive ironworks, the refining of rare metals, the discovery of aluminum.
In fact, it's better suited to Medieval Era Steel Working! I'll keep looking.

 

[Xyth]

First, it raises the question of how record keeping is possible without writing. Following the example of BtS, I would rename 'Record Keeping' 'Writing'; and rename 'Writing' (that is, the writing of books) 'Literature.'

Completely disagree, though I suspect there is some difference of definition happening here. Record Keeping is about keeping information about transactions or chronology in some physical form, whilst Writing is about recording language and/or ideas in physical form. I wrote a thesis on the emergence of ancient writing from ancient record keeping as part of my degree, here's a very rough summary:

Record Keeping was the precursor to writing in every civilization that developed writing independently (Sumer, Egypt (controversial), Indus (possibly), China, Mayans). Writing developed from the need to record transactions or track time and there were many systems to do this, the most prevalent of which were clay seals. Seals initially marked ownership via pictures or patterns but over time began to be used to record quantities, dates and 'shipping information' as well. Over time the design of seals become more pictographic in nature which eventually led to actual writing, on the seals themselves, and on tablets and other media as well. There were other systems of record keeping in other parts of the world, such as tally sticks, bone etchings and the Incan quipu.

The Mayan were somewhat of an exception to this but even then their writing system evolved from their number system and calendar. It's still record keeping of sorts, just without the economic focus that occurred everywhere else. Egypt is also a little unique in that though they borrowed the idea of writing from Mesopotamia they didn't borrow the same form and seem to have applied it to administrative and religious functions at around the same time. Even here though, writing wasn't used to record language until later.

Finally, I feel 'Literature' as a tech is disingenuous. People have been recording stories and events for as long as language was able to be written, it wasn't something that developed later.

Oral tradition, meanwhile, sounds less like a technology and more like a civic. It also predates the theatre by several centuries and seems better suited for the first column of the tech tree. Thus, I would rename 'Oral Tradition' 'Oratory.' Other possible names include Performance Art and Drama.

Oral Tradition used to be in the first column in early drafts of the new tech tree but it eventually got shifted later. I agree a name change is needed, I think Oratory works well.

The Record Keeping quote can be temporarily moved to Welfare; though I suspect that technology, too, will be renamed, to avoid conflict with the Social Welfare civic. In summary:

Not sure what I want to do with the Welfare tech at this stage, though I imagine it will be replaced.

Refrigeration
Current: Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are. -Anthelme Brillat-Savarin
Suggested: By the expenditure of a like quantity of work, the same amount of heat may be produced. -Rudolf Clausius

It clearly needs a new quote but I don't think this is the right one.

Nutrition
Current: You are what you eat. -Proverb
Suggested: Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are. -Anthelme Brillat-Savarin

Brillat-Savarin's quote is merely one interpretation of a very old proverb, I thus prefer to stick with the 'original' even though we cannot trace the original form or author.

We could broaden the definition of this technology to include the whole of modern medicine. People have nice things to say about their doctors, much as they dislike the medicines they dispense.

That's probably the best idea, at least for the quote.

We could rework The Great Lighthouse entirely. What about +1 hammer on Water tiles, the bonus attached to the Moai Statues National Wonder in BtS?
Maybe throw in +1 trade route for the Lighthouse city as well?

No, lets save that for use elsewhere. Lets keep it simple, some options:

• +50% commerce from trade routes in the city
• +1 regular trade route in the city
• +25% commerce in the city
• Free naval promotion allowing double speed movement over reefs​

Yep, I'm working on adding reefs, preview soon. Continue discussion of this over at the Building and Wonders thread please.

Fair enough; but the Franklin quote doesn't capture the full scope of modern metallurgy: the massive ironworks, the refining of rare metals, the discovery of aluminum.
In fact, it's better suited to Medieval Era Steel Working! I'll keep looking.

Agreed, lets keep looking.

 

[Azoth]

Well, I decided to put the quotes on hold and take a look at the tech tree proper. I've attached a revised version to this post.
It's only a rough draft; I've simply sorted the technologies into columns, without including arrows or any other information.
I have not introduced any new columns; instead, I have focused on improving the military branch of the tech tree.
In the process, I have also shuffled many technologies around and made minor improvements across the board.

In particular, I have removed or renamed: Hunting, Fishing, Record Keeping, Oral Tradition, Fealty, Free Artistry, Military Conduct, Formation, Civil Liberties, Military Science, Physics, Welfare, Military Tradition, Entrenchment, Total War, Civil Rights, Nuclear Weapons, Nuclear Power, and Astrophysics.

In their place, I have added: Archery, Seafaring, Oratory, Cartography, Literature, Clockwork, Chivalry, Acoustics, Paper, Optics, Civil Service, Urbanization, Mechanics, Atomic Theory, Liberalism, Polymers, Egalitarianism, Miniaturization, and Virtual Reality.

Briefly, my reasons for doing so are as follows:

• Hunting and Fishing are skills which long predate human civilization. They were practiced by the ancestors of modern humans many millennia ago. As such, Hunting and Fishing have been renamed Archery and Sailing. The Seafaring technology has also been introduced.
• Record Keeping and Writing have been renamed Writing and Literature. Xyth, I do think our disagreement on this point is entirely semantic: I feel 'Writing' and 'Literature' better capture the interaction you describe. In the eyes of the non-specialist, a civilization discovers Writing precisely when it begins to keep records: of possessions and property, of prayers and rituals, of battles and treaties. A civilization produces Literature when it records ideas: treatises of economics and politics, religion and philosophy, war and peace, to be housed in Libraries.
• Astronomy has been moved to the Renaissance where it belongs. (Think Copernicus and Galileo.) In its place, I have introduced Cartography.
• Fealty has been absorbed under Land Tenure; Free Artistry has likewise fallen under Patronage and Humanism. In their place, I have introduced Chivalry and Acoustics.
• Military Conduct, Formation, Military Science, Military Tradition, Entrenchment, Total War, Nuclear Weapons, and Nuclear Power have all been removed. They were either too vague or too narrowly focused on military strategy. I have moved the entire Gunpowder to Rocketry branch to the top row, leaving more room for new technologies elsewhere.
• Civil Liberties and Welfare have been absorbed under Constitution and the new Liberalism. Civil Rights have been recast as Egalitarianism.
• Physics has been split into Mechanics (circa Newton) and Atomic Theory (circa Bohr).
• If you prefer, Urbanization can be renamed Urban Planning for that modern feel.

If we are serious about reworking the tech tree, we need to start by finalizing the list of technologies.
I would appreciate some feedback. Have I cut something worth keeping? Have I ignored something worth adding?

 

[Xyth]

Well, I decided to put the quotes on hold and take a look at the tech tree proper. I've attached a revised version to this post.
It's only a rough draft; I've simply sorted the technologies into columns, without including arrows or any other information.
I have not introduced any new columns; instead, I have focused on improving the military branch of the tech tree.
In the process, I have also shuffled many technologies around and made minor improvements across the board.

As soon as I've finished messing around with ranged combat (in)capabilities I'll take your and Howard's suggestions for the tech tree and see what's plausible.

If we are serious about reworking the tech tree, we need to start by finalizing the list of technologies.
I would appreciate some feedback. Have I cut something worth keeping? Have I ignored something worth adding?

The main piece of feedback I have is it's very difficult to judge the merit of your changes without the matching changes to what the techs unlock or how they link to the other techs. While it is easy to say that X tech or X name makes more sense historically than Y, it has to make sense in terms of the game. The tech tree controls the pacing of the game so it's vital that it makes sense in that aspect. We also don't want a whole bunch of techs that unlock very little and some that unlock heaps.

For example, you've added Clockwork, Mechanics, Atomic Theory, Renaissance Astronomy, Optics and Acoustics. These all make sense historically but what do they unlock if all are included? We have to be careful not to fall in a trap of having to add content in order to justify techs, it has to be the other way around most of the time. There's already a few places in the tree where this has happened so I've very hesitant to add more. It's different if it's about spreading out unlocked content that is already too 'clumped' of course.

I won't comment on everything unit I've started trying to make changes, but a few comments:

Hunting and Fishing are skills which long predate human civilization. They were practiced by the ancestors of modern humans many millennia ago. As such, Hunting and Fishing have been renamed Archery and Sailing. The Seafaring technology has also been introduced.

I agree about Hunting, I've always felt that was a bit of a silly inclusion. I like changing it to Archery except that then it makes little sense as a prerequisite for Textiles. I'll have to see how/if the ancient era gets shuffled but I agree it's worth aiming for.

I've renamed the current Sailing tech as Seafaring as it's inclusive of both wind and oar powered vessels. I don't think having both Sailing and Seafaring, Fishing makes the most sense given what that tech unlocks. I think in this case we need to consider the tech to represent the development of larger-scale fishing rather than initial fishing and we should change the pedia entry accordingly.

Record Keeping and Writing have been renamed Writing and Literature. Xyth, I do think our disagreement on this point is entirely semantic: I feel 'Writing' and 'Literature' better capture the interaction you describe. In the eyes of the non-specialist, a civilization discovers Writing precisely when it begins to keep records: of possessions and property, of prayers and rituals, of battles and treaties. A civilization produces Literature when it records ideas: treatises of economics and politics, religion and philosophy, war and peace, to be housed in Libraries.

I'm not willing to change this sorry. Record Keeping is an economic tech, it's much wider in scope than just written records, it's also about the administration and economic advances of ancient times. Many civs had complex and even international systems before they discovered any sort of writing, if they did at all. Currency and Mathematics were possible and indeed quite complex in several ancient illiterate civilizations. Making this change would undermine all of that.

Fealty has been absorbed under Land Tenure; Free Artistry has likewise fallen under Patronage and Humanism. In their place, I have introduced Chivalry and Acoustics.

I dislike Chivalry as a tech, it's not something that was universal nor essential to human advancement. It's also very Eurocentric, and I think it is covered by the Warrior Code civic. I acknowledge that Military Conduct suffers similar problems.

Military Conduct, Formation, Military Science, Military Tradition, Entrenchment, Total War, Nuclear Weapons, and Nuclear Power have all been removed. They were either too vague or too narrowly focused on military strategy. I have moved the entire Gunpowder to Rocketry branch to the top row, leaving more room for new technologies elsewhere.

Completely agree that all of those techs are less than ideal but I'm not sure we can get away with replacing them with non-military techs. Shall see.



EDIT: Ranged combat is driving me nuts, I shall take a break and work on the techtree today instead.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I think we should have a military line of technologies. Like it or not, much of the game revolves around warfare; there are peaceful ways to win but it's dangerous to ignore war.

On the one hand, this should be reflected in the tech tree to some extent, although the existing military line may take it a bit far- I'll try to find time to think about that. On the other, isolating military techs into their own branch also lets you make the decision to concentrate on the civilian technology at the expense of your civilization's warfighting abilities.

 

[Azoth]

The main piece of feedback I have is it's very difficult to judge the merit of your changes without the matching changes to what the techs unlock or how they link to the other techs. While it is easy to say that X tech or X name makes more sense historically than Y, it has to make sense in terms of the game. The tech tree controls the pacing of the game so it's vital that it makes sense in that aspect. We also don't want a whole bunch of techs that unlock very little and some that unlock heaps.

Oh, absolutely. And I can include more information in a future draft if that helps. But I thought it best to proceed in stages. As it is, I've only proposed replacing 18 of the 135 techs, so most of the connections will remain. Actually, I'd like to focus on the Big Picture stuff first. Before getting bogged down in the details, we should make sure that each technology represents a clear and distinct achievement; that the technologies in each column are roughly contemporaneous; that nothing of significance has been omitted; and that the pacing of the tech tree across the eras feels right.

Once we have that, the rest should be easy.

For example, you've added Clockwork, Mechanics, Atomic Theory, Renaissance Astronomy, Optics and Acoustics. These all make sense historically but what do they unlock if all are included? We have to be careful not to fall in a trap of having to add content in order to justify techs, it has to be the other way around most of the time. There's already a few places in the tree where this has happened so I've very hesitant to add more. It's different if it's about spreading out unlocked content that is already too 'clumped' of course.

Yup. One of my goals is to spread "clumped" content across multiple technologies, and in some cases multiple branches. As a general rule of thumb, I think every technology should unlock multiple things, but only one of each type of thing: only one new unit, one new building, one new Wonder, one new improvement, one new Civic. That way, content is well-distributed across the tech tree and every technology feels unique. (You never fall in the trap of Military Tech I, Military Tech II, Military Tech III, etc.) Of course, the rule will sometimes be broken; the Aesthetics technology might logically unlock more than one Wonder. In that case, I would suggest that one or more of those Wonders be linked to a relevant technology in another part of the tech tree, to preserve variety.

Completely agree that all of those techs are less than ideal but I'm not sure we can get away with replacing them with non-military techs. Shall see.

This is the biggest change I've proposed and I think we can make it work. The first half of the military branch works so well precisely because it includes technologies that had an impact on society as a whole. Copper Working-Bronze Working-Metal Casting-Iron Working-Steel Working-Machinery: these are not simply military technologies, and it shows; they unlock new resources, new worker abilities, new buildings, and new Wonders. By the same token, the second half of the military branch should run as follows: Gunpowder-Firearms-Replaceable Parts-Rifling-Ballistics-Explosives. All those technologies have a distinct military flavour but they also set the pace of progress across wider human society. They are certainly preferable to Military Conduct-Formation-Military Science-Military Tradition-Entrenchment-Total War, and I am confident we can accommodate any displaced military units elsewhere. (We can move Grenadiers to Chemistry and Machine Guns to Railroad, for example.)

As for the rest of my suggested changes, you can take them or leave them; but this, I think, is critical.

I think we should have a military line of technologies. Like it or not, much of the game revolves around warfare; there are peaceful ways to win but it's dangerous to ignore war.

Again, I'm not suggesting we should eliminate the military branch; I'm suggesting we should replace it with something better. Consider:

Gunpowder-Firearms-Replaceable Parts-Rifling-Ballistics-Explosives; as opposed to
Military Conduct-Formation-Military Science-Military Tradition-Entrenchment-Total War

On a related note, I would much prefer that Tanks required some combination of Combustion, Ballistics, Metallurgy, and Polymers (genuine technological advances, often spurred by military necessity) instead of something like Total War (a military doctrine specific to a particular geopolitics).

 

[Xyth]

Before getting bogged down in the details, we should make sure that each technology represents a clear and distinct achievement; that the technologies in each column are roughly contemporaneous; that nothing of significance has been omitted; and that the pacing of the tech tree across the eras feels right.

Actually the details are more important than the big picture in my opinion. It's MUCH harder to design a tree and fit a balanced game into it than vice versa. A lot of the elements that aren't as historical as they could be were because I initially built the tree with pacing in mind rather than accuracy (except the Industrial/Modern eras, they were quite rushed in comparison to the rest of the tree and it shows). Since then I been slowly tweaking it to improve both aspects.

"nothing of significance has been omitted" - but only if there something sensible for it to unlock. "each technology represents a clear and distinct achievement" - agreed, but sometimes this just isn't possible without creating clumping or techs too unrelated to what they unlock.

As a general rule of thumb, I think every technology should unlock multiple things, but only one of each type of thing: only one new unit, one new building, one new Wonder, one new improvement, one new Civic.

I agree but I see no point in forcing separation of units like Heavy Footmen and Heavy Horsemen, or Musketmen and Cuirassiers.

Of course, the rule will sometimes be broken; the Aesthetics technology might logically unlock more than one Wonder. In that case, I would suggest that one or more of those Wonders be linked to a relevant technology in another part of the tech tree, to preserve variety.

Yep, many of them already do this. I also like to avoid techs that only unlock Wonders as much as possible.

As for the rest of my suggested changes, you can take them or leave them; but this, I think, is critical.

Don't worry, I'm well aware that this is the weakest part of the tree.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Well, I'd like to preserve at least a few 'military' techs, but the whole line with its numerous examples (Fortification, Entrenchment, etc.) is perhaps a bit much.

Total War is a very logical industrial tech, because it reflects something that is true in every Civ game, if not in every part of the real world: industrial development had gotten to the point where the world was full, where populations permitted armies in the millions, where new weapons had made offense and defense both infinitely more powerful than they'd been a century earlier.

That changed a lot of things.

 

[Xyth]

I've been working on the techtree a fair bit over the last week. The second half of the tree is getting some more significant changes but I feel the first half only needs relatively small tweaks. Most of it is still very much unfinished but I've attached a preview of the start of the tree where I've made a few small but significant changes.


Cross Links

• Pastoralism ---> Leather Working
• Leather Working ---> Riding
• Construction ---> Shipbuilding
• Astronomy ---> Mathematics​

Notes

• There are now only 4 starting techs, all appropriately Stone Age in theme
• Agriculture, Pottery and Textiles have no prerequisites; they're available for all civs at the start of the game but no civ gets them for free
• Astronomy may get renamed, depending what changes are made later in the tree. It also needs to unlock more than it currently does.
• Map Trading has moved later in the tree
• Fortification is missing because I haven't yet decided if I'm keeping it there or not​

I made these changes because assigning starting techs was bugging me, some combinations were much stronger than others and I didn't like how some were quite anachronistic compared to others. I think this new scheme solves all these issues and allows me to spread what's unlocked around a bit more evenly than it was before.

I'd like people's thoughts on where they think the Archer, Skirmisher and Wineries should go. I'm still a bit unsure on those. I don't wish to give them dedicated techs like Archery or Fermentation as I feel that trying to introduce those without significant other changes would break the balance of the tree up too much.

Howard, I've had a thorough look through your proposal and for the most part I like it but I feel that it's just too much for a full game mod. With an Ancient era that full it creates the need to give all the other eras a similar level of detail and that's not something I really want to do.