Feudalism Kills the Celts

[Sultan Bhargash]

I have been trying to get a good monarch game going as the Celts. I have noticed these problems:

1. Iron never seems to be nearby. In all three games I tried I had to make war to get the iron to build the UU, and it led to:

2. Feudalism kills the Celts. I was laying seige to Paris with my Gallic swordsmen along with some archers and horsemen. First off, the Gallic Swordsmen are not all that... often not able to kill a spearman... but I had many cities producing them and their movement meant they could shoot out into the enemy territory and attack Paris the same turn. Well thanks to the Great Library I got Feudalism and suddenly all of my cities produced a round of... Midevil Infantry. Yech! Sure they are stronger but they couldn't move out fast enough to keep the seige going.

I have never had Getting A Tech make a backwards shift in the war like that. I was suddenly on retreat and barely holding my ground.

Gallic warrior... too late, too little...

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I have been trying to get a good monarch game going as the Celts. I have noticed these problems:

1. Iron never seems to be nearby. In all three games I tried I had to make war to get the iron to build the UU, and it led to:

Thats just your bad luck.

First off, the Gallic Swordsmen are not all that... often not able to kill a spearman...

Again, just your bad luck!

Well thanks to the Great Library I got Feudalism and suddenly all of my cities produced a round of... Midevil Infantry. Yech! Sure they are stronger but they couldn't move out fast enough to keep the seige going.

One advantage Gallic Swordsmen have is that they upgrade to Med. Inf. for free, which is a nifty little advantage. I don't think getting Feudalism matters that much; those swordsmen you produce probably wouldn't have much effect on the war. Its really a trade off: do you want speed or power? If you are complaining that they can't beat spears, then you could use the power. But if you are complaining that you need the speed to keep the offensive going, then keep the speed. I think a good strat is to upgrade some. Keep the Gallic Swords for pillage/geurilla duty, keep the Med. Inf. for the major offensives. I agree, it is a strange situation: a free upgrade, losing a speed point to gain an attack point. Quite unique.

CG

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

But Gannon it wsn't a question of upgrading, it was a question that you can no longer make GS once you have feudalism. I was sure the 3 I had coming down the pipeline would turn the tide against the spearmen defended Paris, but when they became infantrymen, who would get stuck a square short of Paris and could then be killed by horsemen/archers before killing the spearmen off, that was the end of that battle.

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
But Gannon it wsn't a question of upgrading, it was a question that you can no longer make GS once you have feudalism. I was sure the 3 I had coming down the pipeline would turn the tide against the spearmen defended Paris, but when they became infantrymen, who would get stuck a square short of Paris and could then be killed by horsemen/archers before killing the spearmen off, that was the end of that battle.

Good point. Maybe its just time for Knights then.

CG

 

[andrewgprv]

I love the Galic Swordsmen

 

[Silverflame]

Sometimes I think that you should be able to keep building UUs after you get a tech for their upgrade path, but that they could be upgraded. I wonder if this would work or not...

 

[Magus Maximus]

I love the gallic swordman too. They've killed many spearmen in my games.

But I must agree with sultan that the medieval infantary is not a good upgrade. The one extra mov. point (GS) is much more useful than the extra attack point (MI)

I think I'm gonna change it on the editor right now...

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I like that idea Silverflame. If the Celtic Warrior and the Midevil Infantry have the same cost, then they should be available at the same time as alternatives.

Likewise, if you never got GA with an Egyptian war chariot, it ought to be possible to trot one out to take the last hit point off of that musketman...

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Likewise, if you never got GA with an Egyptian war chariot, it ought to be possible to trot one out to take the last hit point off of that musketman...

Actually, I believe that is how it works, although I haven't tested it with the Gallic Swordsman. In vanilla Civ 3, you could continue to build your UU after it became "obsolete" because an upgrade was available - BUT ONLY if you hadn't already triggered your GA. So the UU was still available as a GA trigger (war chariots available beside horsemen and even knights). I've only played the Celts once, and had triggered my GA prior to Feudalsim, so I too was stuck with medieval infantry instead of GS.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Catt, can that be true? I had indeed already triggered my golden age... but I think maybe you are confused by some instance where only horses and not iron were available to a certain city?

Will someone confirm or deny this?

Magus, right on.

Has anyone ever ran a gallic swordsmen up against a Numidian mercenary yet?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Well, once playing as the Babs and never triggering my GA until the modern age, I was still able to build their bowmen UU along with tanks and stuff, so....

 

[Magus Maximus]

Funny thing
I just looked in the editor and it says that the GS upgrades to legionary?!?!?!

I might even prefer the GS over the guerilla, that useless piece of #$@%

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Magus, yes it is wierd about the UUs but the upgrade chain goes past that, just the Celts can't make a legionary so it keeps looking past legionary and eventually reaches MI. You can set the upgrade to whatever you like in the editor.

 

[Silverflame]

Originally posted by Magus Maximus
Funny thing
I just looked in the editor and it says that the GS upgrades to legionary?!?!?!

I might even prefer the GS over the guerilla, that useless piece of #$@%

Yeah, its what Sultan said.

And I think we all agree that the guerilla really needs some improvement

 

[Magus Maximus]

I would say that the guerilla needs more than some improvments
I mean, it has no use whatsoever...

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Catt, can that be true? I had indeed already triggered my golden age... but I think maybe you are confused by some instance where only horses and not iron were available to a certain city?

Well I don't have the time or inclination to test it fully, but I know I've been able to build Impi alonside Infantry, Mounted Warriros alongside Knights, and War Chariots alongside Knights. Early on with the game, I played Egypt a lot, and always made sure I had a few WCs saved to trigger a Middle Ages' GA -- finally figured out that I didn't need to do so - that I could build 'em until I triggered my GA. Others have confirmed the ability to build things well beyond their "expiration date" -- hoplites in the Modern Age!

 

[Tiamat]

Sultan, I am just finishing a game with the Celts, and I was able to build both MI and GS after researching Fuedalism in every city because I hadn't triggered my GA yet. As soon as the GA was triggered I lost the ability to build the GS everywhere.

 

[cgannon64]

Don't trust the Civilopedia on upgrade matters AT ALL. Everything is screwed up in there. Must be alot of typos---how else could you get GS-->Legionary? :crazyeyes:

CG

 

[Grey Fox]

Originally posted by Magus Maximus
I would say that the guerilla needs more than some improvments
I mean, it has no use whatsoever...

No use? It's very useful if you don't have any rubber. As your old units upgrade to it, it doesn't matter that it cost the same as Infantry. If you can't get oil, but have rubber. Use the Guerilla alongside with infantry, cavalry (if you can build them), and artillary(most important of the ones I listed). To get 30-40 or more units with 6 attack in one turn is great.

 

[Tiamat]

cgannon & magus,

There was a thread on this a while ago but the way the upgrade path works in the editor is not as clear cut as GS upgrades to MI directly. What is set up in the editor is that all the Swordsman related UU's upgrade to each other and then on ti MI, but because each civ is only allowed to build one of them it just keeps skipping until it gets to the allowed unit.

For example (not necessarily the correct order):

Warrior -> Swordsman -> Gallic Swordswman -> Legionary -> Immortal -> Medieval Infantry.

So, say the Persians want to upgrade their Warrior. The path would indicate it is supposed to be upgraded to the Swordsman, but since Persia is not allowed to build that unit, it skips to the next in line. It keeps doing this until it reaches the Immortal which it is allowed to build. The same would apply for say the Russians, who can build the Swordsman, but not any of the UU's. They want to upgrade their Swordsman, but they skip until MI because they are not allowed to build the units in between.

Hope this helps.