FfH2 0.13 Balance Recommendation

[Nikis-Knight]

So, I'd say that you either need to make philosophical give +200% GPP (too much more powerful than the other Civs), or make it just easier to get Great People across the board (what I'd prefer).

Or (perhaps too complicated) make GPP points scale up different for each specialist, so if your first is a priest, the artists etc. still only need 100 points. Probably would be way too powerful, but actual numbers could be tweaked.

 

[Maniac]

Hmm, M@ni@c's ideas with the great people sound good, even in vanilla Civ, I have no idea why the original game was made to have GP farming be so useless in the late stages.

We should found the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen in support of Great People.

Or (perhaps too complicated) make GPP points scale up different for each specialist, so if your first is a priest, the artists etc. still only need 100 points. Probably would be way too powerful, but actual numbers could be tweaked.

That would make a strategy of focusing on one type of specialist unlucrative though.

 

[Silverkiss]

I dont think so, as if you focused on one type, it would be like normal games are now... only if you changed to another specialist the points will come back to 100 (example)

 

[Maian]

For the Elven Civ i hold to my ideas:
Elves should be able to build Elven Farm (like normal Farms, but not allowed In Forests (rewuirements to cut the Forest -> Never Tech)
The same for Cottages
As Compensation they get two new improvements:
The gatherer Hut: +1 Food, does not Spread or need Irrigation.
And Treetop Cottage/Hamlet/Village that are identical to the Normal ones but can only be built in Forests and grow only to Village.

This Way the elves get an early advantage (that can be well combined with the Ancient Forests later on) but their Gatherer Huts are a bit weaker to the end of the game. Note that the Gatherer huts can also be planted in Hill-Forests which allows the elves an kind of early game Windmill.
(Make sure you set Bonus Makes Valid to False for the Food bonusses (but allowing them to the gatherer hut)this way the hut can be placed on the boni but only if they are within forests..)

Furthermore i would introduce a late game Improvement that can be built by workers and priest of the leaves:
Enchanted glade - requires Commune with Nature - can only be built in Ancient Forests. Gives +1 Commerce.
This way Ancient forests are equal to forests with lumbermills.

I like the ideas, but the not being able to cut down forests thing should be linked to the fellowship of leaves religion, not the elven civ. I've seen Ljosalfar with Ashen Veil as their state religion before, and it's not inconcievable for them to be cutting down forests.

 

[Maian]

It's magic - it's supernatural.
Personally I do think it kinda fits with the nature mana theme - making your own paradise in an inhospitable region.

Also IIRC at some later phase there will be some Armageddon spell that slowly changes the world to ice. Druid's terraforming will then be an important tactic to try and counter this.

It may be supernatural, but magic doesn't last forever, does it? According to what I've seen in FfH, most spells either have a time limit (e.g. most buffs, some summons), unit limit (e.g. summoned tigers), or dispel themselves once the mage leaves (e.g. city buffs). Terrain modification spells however aren't consistent with this.

It would make sense if the terrain modification spells act like city buff spells, in that the mage/priest has to be in the area for the terrain to be kept modified. In this case, when the mage/priest leaves the area, the terrain can slowly revert.

However I can't think of an easy to implement this...

 

[Kael]

It may be supernatural, but magic doesn't last forever, does it? According to what I've seen in FfH, most spells either have a time limit (e.g. most buffs, some summons), unit limit (e.g. summoned tigers), or dispel themselves once the mage leaves (e.g. city buffs). Terrain modification spells however aren't consistent with this.

It would make sense if the terrain modification spells act like city buff spells, in that the mage/priest has to be in the area for the terrain to be kept modified. In this case, when the mage/priest leaves the area, the terrain can slowly revert.

However I can't think of an easy to implement this...

Yeah. At its basic layer terraforming is fun for a lot of players (though I do know there are some who find it to be tedious). Having the land revert back would be very unfun (as you suggest).

I do want to get a little away from running around to plots in "Fire" and instead have the land change according to games outcome. That could mean becoming broken hellish terrain, a lush paradise, or haunted graveyards. Obviously most games implemented ideas like this by having the terrain switch based on player controlable options (religion/maybe civics/etc) and I want to have that play a part. But I also want part of the terrain effects be from a global function as well. Most games worry about a few factions but civ deals with the world. And I want the state of the world to be a concern of the player and something he can influence, but not completly control.

Anyway, dont read to much into this post, its just my babbling. We will see what comes of it.

 

[Maian]

Deception will be removend ( i think - there was a unit ther but that got moved to another tech.)
For Domesticate Elephats - simple don't research it for the time beeing. But maybe there will be something more moved to that tech. Blocking it for one civ simply adds programming complexity so it might not be worth it, especially if it might get worthwile later on.

It shouldn't add programming complexity if this blocked civs could be set in XML. Rather than hardcode things in, add another element under <TechInfo> called <DisableRules> (or something similar) with some more custom elements. Following example should be self-explanatory:

<TechInfo>
    <Type>TECH_ARETE</Type>
    ...
    <DisableRules>
        <DisableForReligion>(ALL)</DisableForReligion>
        <EnableForReligion>RELIGION_RUNES_OF_KILMORPH</EnableForReligion>
    </DisableRules>

Or something along those lines. Point is to XMLize data things.

 

[Maian]

Yeah. At its basic layer terraforming is fun for a lot of players (though I do know there are some who find it to be tedious). Having the land revert back would be very unfun (as you suggest).

I do want to get a little away from running around to plots in "Fire" and instead have the land change according to games outcome. That could mean becoming broken hellish terrain, a lush paradise, or haunted graveyards. Obviously most games implemented ideas like this by having the terrain switch based on player controlable options (religion/maybe civics/etc) and I want to have that play a part. But I also want part of the terrain effects be from a global function as well. Most games worry about a few factions but civ deals with the world. And I want the state of the world to be a concern of the player and something he can influence, but not completly control.

Anyway, dont read to much into this post, its just my babbling. We will see what comes of it.

Well I wasn't suggesting that land reverting back wouldn't be very fun. Just that if it does, there needs to be some mechanism that isn't annoying.

And what suggest sounds pretty cool. Events and blah. BTW, it would be awesome if Hyborem or another civ could turn ground into blight automatically ala Undead in Warcraft 3 or Zerg in StarCraft

 

[ducttapehaxor]

Can the power level of piller of fire be tonned down some. I played a game where i had a stack of 2 high priests and 1 inquistor (all 3 with piller of fire) and was able to steam roll the ai's cities, the 3 pillers of fire together destroyed every unit in the cities (when all 3 cast on the same city), then it was just a matter of sending someone in to take over the cities. Bring the level of piller of fire down by 1/10 maybe, and stop it from bringing any unit lower than maybe 10% of initial power?

 

[mervvyn]

Can the power level of piller of fire be tonned down some. I played a game where i had a stack of 2 high priests and 1 inquistor (all 3 with piller of fire) and was able to steam roll the ai's cities, the 3 pillers of fire together destroyed every unit in the cities (when all 3 cast on the same city), then it was just a matter of sending someone in to take over the cities. Bring the level of piller of fire down by 1/10 maybe, and stop it from bringing any unit lower than maybe 10% of initial power?

i agree that it's very strong, but i'm not sure how much you'd want to reduce it by, seeing as it's a high level spell. Howevere, even with one pillar caster per target city is enough to make things pretty straightforward with appropriate artillery support, so some kind of toning down would be appropriate i think. Is there a cap to the strength of units it can kill outright at the moment?

 

[Silmeran]

I think siege weapons must be removed or weakened, they are overpowered in vanilla, when 20 cheap cannons can capture a city where 10 expensive Infantry will fail. In FfH we have a spells with collateral damage which is enough in my opinion. What is purpose to have 3 strong heroes defending a city, if couple of catapults can weaken them enough to be killed by axeman?

 

[Chalid]

It shouldn't add programming complexity if this blocked civs could be set in XML. Rather than hardcode things in, add another element under <TechInfo> called <DisableRules> (or something similar) with some more custom elements. Following example should be self-explanatory:

<TechInfo>
    <Type>TECH_ARETE</Type>
    ...
    <DisableRules>
        <DisableForReligion>(ALL)</DisableForReligion>
        <EnableForReligion>RELIGION_RUNES_OF_KILMORPH</EnableForReligion>
    </DisableRules>

Or something along those lines. Point is to XMLize data things.

It is programming difficulty as we have to add those tags in the SDK and add their function there, too. Adding those two tags and filling them with effect means about 50 lines of code and several additional checks. Alone for these religion checks. Then there have to be ckecks for races and so on.

Believe me, I'm well aware of the possibilities we have and i am sure that this is a bit too much simply for blocking one tech. If we want to do it Kael will probably hardcode it in the cannorResearch in Phython.

 

[Chalid]

I think siege weapons must be removed or weakened, they are overpowered in vanilla, when 20 cheap cannons can capture a city where 10 expensive Infantry will fail. In FfH we have a spells with collateral damage which is enough in my opinion. What is purpose to have 3 strong heroes defending a city, if couple of catapults can weaken them enough to be killed by axeman?

Why send Katapults when you can send Meteors? In fact Catapults are only usefull in FfH for bombarding the city defense.

Can the power level of piller of fire be tonned down some. I played a game where i had a stack of 2 high priests and 1 inquistor (all 3 with piller of fire) and was able to steam roll the ai's cities, the 3 pillers of fire together destroyed every unit in the cities (when all 3 cast on the same city), then it was just a matter of sending someone in to take over the cities. Bring the level of piller of fire down by 1/10 maybe, and stop it from bringing any unit lower than maybe 10% of initial power?

Have you trieed 3 twincast Archmages with Meteorstorm. Both are examples that it is difficult to balance some things. If we tone them down they become rather meaningless. If we let them as they are they are too powerfull .

Btw. I hope that in the future we can get the AI to do those thing to you too ;D.

 

[Silmeran]

Why send Katapults when you can send Meteors? In fact Catapults are only usefull in FfH for bombarding the city defense.

Meteors need an expensive and limited Archmages with certain promotions, while catapults are limited only by your treasury. And they easily get +collateral damage promotions

 

[snarko]

Believe me, I'm well aware of the possibilities we have and i am sure that this is a bit too much simply for blocking one tech. If we want to do it Kael will probably hardcode it in the cannorResearch in Phython.

Did I miss something or couldn't you just use the setting in Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml?

 

[Kael]

Did I miss something or couldn't you just use the setting in Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml?

Blocking in Civ4civilizationinfos keeps the civ from ever being able to research it. I believe they are talking about more dynamic changes.

As chalid said, Firaxis gave us a python routine specifically to block techs dynamically, we will probably use that rather than adding new schema, xml attributes and sdk code.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

re: pillar of fire, I recommend you make it do no more than 30% damge, so if cast 3x, the units would still be there with 10% health left, still a very strong spell but no longer all you need to win.

 

[Kael]

re: pillar of fire, I recommend you make it do no more than 30% damge, so if cast 3x, the units would still be there with 10% health left, still a very strong spell but no longer all you need to win.

Im going to lower the base damage by 55%.

 

[Sarisin]

I don't see any general thread for questions, so I thought I would throw mine in here...

I see that Warlords will let you play the Barbarians as a civ. That sounds like great fun.

Will this capability also be possible in FFh?

I hope I can buy Warlords somewhere over here in Thailand. Yes, they will have the pirated version quickly, but I don't go there.

Won't be back in the US until October, and I am guessing the new version of FFh will require you to have Warlords loaded.

Correct?

 

[Silmeran]

OMG can you please remake this awful sound of 'Raise Skeleton' spell? It drives me crazy. It needs definitely something more quiet, maybe bones knocking?