Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Oct 13, 2006.
Please use this thread to report and balance recommendations you may have about 0.16.
I guess this would go here. We knew the AI never was that great at dealing with the barbarians but now it seems they are exceptionally bad at dealing with the barbarians. Year 26 an AI was killed off. Orthus did not even appear yet! It was the Sailor's Dirge that killed off the AI by landing too many skeletons too early. Maybe the Sailor's Dirge should not appear on the very first turn of the game.
AI cant do much about an undead ship pulling up and dumping off skeletons. Its a dangerous world. I could move the Sailors Dirge back so that it isn't a threat, but thats kinda its point.
I had it go for me at the beginning of my first game - not only did it attack my city with three skeletons on turn 28, but it also sat right outside my city for almost 60 turns preventing me from doing any fishing.
Perhaps it could be made more likely to move after unloading that first stack of skeletons, or even randomly teleport to different parts of the world?
I agree. The AI is absolutely horrid at defending against the Barbarains now. ON raging, the world just collapses. I had 3 cities (as hippus) and was producing nothing but warriors. Felt like a survival game.
Also - Skelitons can now breach the boarder barriers? This is a cool mechanic, but considering how early and often they come, they outdo almost everything you can throw at them when they come in numbers.
I suggest that Barrows and Ruins appear like Orthus Does. So that they're not around until later. Then the barrows and such are made at or near the same time Orthus comes calling. This would cut down on the "seige" mentality that i've felt even when not playing raging barbarians.
Also, the "smarter" AI is wholey annoying. This is both good and bad.
It's good to see the AI actually avoiding combat with my guys to go after my improvements. But its bad because there is no way to "illicit" the barbarians into combat with me, when im being defensive - effectively there is no way to form a peremeter - despite the output of warriors. It should be hard, but is there a way to functionally contorl barbarian incursion? It used to be that a few well placed warriors gave you much sight radius, and then the barbs would be kept outside of your boarders, combating the units out there - now they just bypass them, wave, and head on in towards the good stuff - something i commend. However, that means (without a ZOC) there is no functional way to keep the barbarians "out".
Id like to see incremental difficulty with barbarians, as like in "rush phases".
First there is nothing, your scout/warriors grab a few goodie huts.
Then there are animals, your scouts eventually die, as does the warrior, maybe ANOTHER goodie hut with more expansion.
Then build phase, where the animals roam wild and its nigh impossible to send anyone outside the boarders. Expand to second city.
THen the Barbarian rush begins. THey destroy improvements and attack cities. Warriors are built in responce (if timing is right, before they can even destroy improvments).
Warriors are placed in a peremeter to fend off barbarians - but, now with the new AI, there is no peremeter, its a numbers game, and you cant be everywhere at once. Freespawn barbarians will win the numbers game every time - AI's die. Your under seige while the rest of the world goes Barbarian.
Orthus Appears, time to die.
Also, one game I had a really early appearing skeliton, walked right into my boarders, and took my capital (since i sent my free two units out on recon) - was building my first warrior and wasnt even halfway done. So i lost, in approximately 20 turns. Is this on purpose? Is it intended to keep one warrior in the city now at start up? - which might lose anyway? What of the people who start with two scouts? They're even more doomed.
Perhaps skeletons should shun crossing boarders - until orthus appears.
Just some thoughts.
Let him appear bit later IMO.
Centaurs don't require horses. Cool. But they require stables, which require horses to be built. So their feat 'no horses required' is kinnda lost.
Your right, I'll remove the requirements for stables.
Anyone tried agriculture? +2 food? Too much.. What happens if I build it in grassland, hammers cant go negative.
DON'T attach +1 happy per miltary unit on military state. It is nice and balanced now. Attaching +1 happy/unit would make all other labor civics underpowered. Instead use it on aristocracy, it can still use a boost.
Wouldn't it make more sense to remove the horse requirement for the stable? Then the centaurs get their resource advantage but not an extra boost from being available that much faster (stables being fairly expensive), and since the other mounted units need horses anyway, everyone else remains as it is in effect, except that everyone can build possibly build stables a bit earlier (marginally since horses are usually connected before HBR is researched anyway).
This is a threat you cannot plan for. Sometimes it shows up, sometimes it doesnt.
I was finally having success with another hippus game, running around and trying to capture animals (somethign i dont normally do, because there are never any animals left), and suddenly, without warning from the sea, came 3 skelitons of the dirge, even though I had animals IN my city healing up - i lost my capital, and the game, all within 40 turns.
It needs to be like orthus and appear later - or one should just plan on losing X% of games. When Orthus appears, you A) know to start building warriors, B) you also know the general direction he'll be coming from, if he comes, and C) the Dirge can bypass your sight, because unless somehow you're able to see off into the sea, it'll simply come out of nowhere.
Two possible solutions to deadly skeletons: 1. All skeletons built or summoned or spawned before Knowledge of the Ether have 2 str, after, as now. So until two people reseached koE (and thus the barbs learned it) skelies would be dangerous but not so deadly. 2-Sailor's Dirge does not spawn until after at least 1 ship has been destroyed. May need +1 str to stay dangerous.
I like second option, fits flavourwise. But they would need to be stronger then....
The Forest ability thing really changes exploration. Once I got one scout with forest invisibility, I felt invincible. I scouted out much of the map.
I am a big fan of growing danger. Starts out small, gets worse and worse.
I have a simple idea that will keep skelitons VERY dangerous, but prevent beginning game losses. What if Skelitons, flavorwise, cannot broach closely to sources of magic? In this, is it possible from preventing skelitons from being able to enter/attack into spaces containing Mana Nodes? THen we could also make the excuse that Mana provided from Palaces also repels skelitons. Thereby, skeletons can never attack mana nodes, or capital cities. But everything else would be fair game.
The level of danger from skelitons/undead should then be about equal throughout the game depending on what type, and who's spawning them. If the skeliton problem is fixed, i think that the Dirge works out well.
Also, fixing the skeliton problem doesnt save the AI. Orcs are grand, but there are just so bloody many of them, even on NON-raging. I enjoy a good survival game, but not ever game i want to play i want to merely "survive." And if i'm doin "ok" then i know the AI is suffering. Especially when i see little goodbye messages come up frequently. And im not even playing on "cramped" maps yet.
That's why. If you try slightly more crowded maps (say, one extra AI player, or high water level) AI should survive the barbs. Though barrows may change this. One can't really balance new versions internally with so many changes.
Im okay with civilizations getting killed by the barbs. I would be okay if 25% of the civs never made it into the middle age even without the players involvement. Thats a departure from the Civ4 model, but I like having a more dangerous world.
As for the Dirge, there are things that can be done to protect against it (the most important comes in the first round). Not all of the options are perfect, but thats what the decisions are about.
I dont want to introduce a legendary ship to the game and not have it impact strategy. I want players to have to think about decisions they may have taken for granted before and do what they can to survive through that initial period.
I agree fully. A dirge ship should be doom incarnate. But its not so much the "inevitable doom" or fear of it that exists.
So much as Pop, im dead. What? What happened?
If one could see it from far off, or know to start preparing for it, thats one thing. BUt when it just appears and instantly you lose - many players (especially new players who dont know Ffh yet) might think - wow that sucks.
If there was some sort of "time delay" between when I KNOW im in trouble, and actually suffer the wrath, thatd be good. But as it is, I dont pay attention to every single message that comes up on the side screen. I do note when dragon and orthus appear, and I act accordingly. Especially if I note that Ol Orthus is FAR too close for comfort. But with the Sea, and with a fast moving ship - There isnt really a "time delay" to respond. IF you know about it at all.
I'm playing around with him now, and like him... but something confuses me. (Actually, this occured to me earlier, but it was mentioned that he'd be updated in 0.16, so I've held off until now...)
Loki has Channelling 2 and Chaos 2. However, he has neither Sorcery nor Summoning nor Divine. As such, both are worthless.
Also, since Loki can't fight, and doesn't get XP randomly like other casters, and isn't a hero, it is absolutely impossible for him to ever gain XP, ever.
I would suggest that Loki be given Sorcery and changed to an Arcane unit. This would allow him to get a few flavorful abilities early on (from the Balseraph's innate magic), and some powerful magic later on (after they start building nodes). It also would let Loki advance over time, instead of remaining stagnant forever.
I mentioned the same thing, and i was told that he's like an insurgent unit. You place him in opposing civ's cities and watch their culture shrink - and then he instigates riots. Never tried it, still, seemed fun.
I agree, the dirge is too strong.
My first game in .16 featured the dirge moving next to my capital on turn 2
Umm... ok? Quit to main menu?
It can just walk up and kill you (happened in another game), which really isn't fun.
I think the Bar trait may actually be overpowered in this release.
Separate names with a comma.