FilthyRobot's MP Tier Rankings 1.0

[GT_OKEZ]

Spoiler :

1. Scythia
2. Sumeria
3. Germany
4. Russia
5. China
6. Arabia
7. Rome
8. Aztec
9. Kongo
10. Greece-Gorgo
11. Egypt
12. Greece-Pericles
13. England
14. India
15. Japan
16. Brazil
17. France
18. America
19. Spain
20. Norway

What do you think of Filthy Robot's first tier rankings? Keep in mind, he plays almost exclusively MP.

He talks about the rationale for each of his rankings in the vid, if you haven't seen it link below.

Discuss...

I'd rank America higher, somewhere in the middle. I was just able to pull off a cultural victory (technically it was a concede but would've been a cultural victory) in a 6 person multiplayer a couple nights and it came out of nowhere too.

My strategy?

Got an early religion with henge ( Spawned near stone)...picked up Defender, wats, religious community, and world church.

When I expanded I did so to remain on my continent as much as possible preferably towards any lux. I was running only on 6 relatively compact cities in a circular formation.

I didn't spread my religion with religious units at all rather I found that religious pressure is stronger in this patch and I was able to simply passively pressure my religion into neighboring cities which in turn pressured further over time. I took world church because I saw some good streamers use it even though Filthy said it was horrible but I'll tell you this, I was doing the highest culture per turn (with monuments, population, and world church only- no theater districts yet) and world church was accounting for 1/3 of my culture out put which was just free culture. I don't know exactly how its calculated but it seems like quite a bit for doing nothing.

I ended up building only 3 holy sites (mainly for the housing bonus from religious community).

I only built defending units while I simmed. I got DOWed 3 times but lost very little thanks to defender + corollary + defense of the motherland policy + wars of religion against another religion which happened in one war. Built a fort on a hill near the border with a single rough rider (army) in there which got full promotions because he couldn't die (125 combat strength at most times). The end result was that i couldn't be invaded without opponents taking huge loses and getting beaten down by war wariness. Wars of attrition. I was happy to make peace while they spent the time recouping and when I got the proper techs and civics I just went heavy culture and couldn't be stopped.

In the beginning I did what everyone else did minus the slight detour to henge and a holy site just to get defender. I focused on campus, hub , industry, and encampment just like everyone else. I took religious community for higher pop eventually so I can build 3 theater districts only after I placed my core districts down in the early/mid game (never first). My defense was fairly strong thanks to the bonuses and good use of policies so I could afford to plug in the musician card and fill up my film studios and watch the tourism get ridiculous...

Ok, clearly its not the 'best' way to win versus a good old fashioned offensive domination strat but this was the opposite. The ultimate turtle ... which was slow at times but allowed me to Sim in safety and while I wasn't set up to go on domination conquests I couldn't be removed either. Part of it was luck. Some people didn't want to waste their time attacking me because they didn't see America as a real threat ...they thought my self containment and relatively peacefulness was just me being contained into irrelevancy. I like how America can defend very efficiently to the late game and then just turn on the culture/military power out of nowhere. I wasn't resigned to irrelevancy rather I just bid my time.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

I think America is ok, you kind of have to be a little aggressive early even though the +5 home continent thing is not a lot, at that point of the game is pretty big. I think the problem with Teddy is all his uniques are so freakin' late. And I don't think we have a good handle on how impactful the Legacy bonuses are at this time.

 

[GT_OKEZ]

I think America is ok, you kind of have to be a little aggressive early even though the +5 home continent thing is not a lot, at that point of the game is pretty big. I think the problem with Teddy is all his uniques are so freakin' late. And I don't think we have a good handle on how impactful the Legacy bonuses are at this time.

Agreed. I'm quickly realizing that Religious America is the new meta for playing that Civ. Defender is perfect for sustaining a strong early game to carry you to your power spike later in the game. MP games at online speed makes the game faster and let's the legacy bonuses accumulate faster which is ideal for America. Most of the game I was running Merchant Republic and managed to get 15% legacy discount for gold purchases. This is extremely valuable since the cost of gold purchasing increases the more you purchase something so the 15% has even more savings.

At online speed the legacy bonuses do have an impact for sure.

 

[trojan13]

I'd rank Spain higher than that. I've heard Spanish strategy and tried it in pangea MP. It is hard but has really strong time - Renaissance.

 

[kingchris20]

Japan should be higher. With units doing full damage even when damaged and the district adjacency bonuses, they are quite the force to deal with.

 

[jaegybomb]

I have never seen Japan, Spain or America do well in a competitive MP game.

 

[jaegybomb]

Japan has no push, its UU is melee and can't be prebuilt. Its half off districts are the 3 worst in the game and aren't worth eating up district slots. A couple extra adjacency bonuses plus an extra production from factories is hardly game changing.

 

[trojan13]

Japan has no push, its UU is melee and can't be prebuilt. Its half off districts are the 3 worst in the game and aren't worth eating up district slots. A couple extra adjacency bonuses plus an extra production from factories is hardly game changing.

Holy site > defender of faith or crusade
encampment > first general in game.
This is game changing in any war scenario, although samurai is meh.

 

[jaegybomb]

The 2 don't really pair that well though. Defender of the faith works for Russia to get them to their midgame when they dominate everyone. General stacking works with Rome to capitalize on their Legions + super early Oligarchy for easy +20 cs pushes. I don't see what you would be doing with Japan though. Either creating an impenetrable defense to stall for a midgame spike that never comes or trying for an early push and walking off the defender bonus.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

Japan is correctly rated. They are average.

 

[trojan13]

The 2 don't really pair that well though. Defender of the faith works for Russia to get them to their midgame when they dominate everyone. General stacking works with Rome to capitalize on their Legions + super early Oligarchy for easy +20 cs pushes. I don't see what you would be doing with Japan though. Either creating an impenetrable defense to stall for a midgame spike that never comes or trying for an early push and walking off the defender bonus.

I agree that they synergize with certain civ more. But I disagree that you said holy site or encampment is the worst district. Belief and generals are limited to the one who grab first. If you see hostile Roman next to you? you should chop/rush to get general only to prevent them collect general. That's what I did in Japan mp, managed to defend oligarchy legion push with general plus horseman which I grab faster than Roman guy by 6-10 points, thanks to cheaper encampment (next general is medieval.) 49 vs 35 is hard to defend but 44 vs 40 is not worst situation.

 

[kingchris20]

All I'm saying is I had a great MP game today with Japan

 

[jaegybomb]

Anyone feel like Arabia got ranked too high? It kind of seems like they got lumped in with Russia but aren't even in the same ballpark. If anything their pushes seem India tier and bonuses are equally worthless. Maybe I just hate the desert bias and chariots more than I should.

 

[jollywonk]

Anyone feel like Arabia got ranked too high? It kind of seems like they got lumped in with Russia but aren't even in the same ballpark. If anything their pushes seem India tier and bonuses are equally worthless. Maybe I just hate the desert bias and chariots more than I should.

I'm not a big fan. Biggest plus is the resource-free rush to Mamluks. Build heavy chariots, get commerce hubs up, go straight to Stirrups, upgrade chariots and go, but the window isn't that long before other people get their own knights or crossbows. If your opponent has walls and an encampment up, some cheap spears and archers with the +10 district promo, maybe even a Great General, it's not going to be a knock-out blow by itself before your opponent brings their own knights, which are just as strong as yours. If you are taking the time to go get siege towers or catapults, it's just going to exacerbate the window issue.

The biggest issue for me is investing in faith. They have amazing worship building benefits, but to get them, you've got to build Holy Site districts, shrines, and temples in every city. The cost of that, without the Lavra, is probably going to be one of those core Commerce Hub/Campus/Industrial Zone districts. Other civs can build just 1 holy site, maybe run some Holy Site Prayers, found a religion, and call it a day (if they are just using religion for internal benefit). Needing to build a non-UD Holy Site in every city is a substantial disadvantage/cost in exchange for the benefits.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

I'm not a big fan. Biggest plus is the resource-free rush to Mamluks. Build heavy chariots, get commerce hubs up, go straight to Stirrups, upgrade chariots and go, but the window isn't that long before other people get their own knights or crossbows. If your opponent has walls and an encampment up, some cheap spears and archers with the +10 district promo, maybe even a Great General, it's not going to be a knock-out blow by itself before your opponent brings their own knights, which are just as strong as yours. If you are taking the time to go get siege towers or catapults, it's just going to exacerbate the window issue.

The biggest issue for me is investing in faith. They have amazing worship building benefits, but to get them, you've got to build Holy Site districts, shrines, and temples in every city. The cost of that, without the Lavra, is probably going to be one of those core Commerce Hub/Campus/Industrial Zone districts. Other civs can build just 1 holy site, maybe run some Holy Site Prayers, found a religion, and call it a day (if they are just using religion for internal benefit). Needing to build a non-UD Holy Site in every city is a substantial disadvantage/cost in exchange for the benefits.

Couple things. definitely agree with your first paragraph re heavy chariots/mamluks/ stirrups beeline.
I only build 1 holy site amongst the first few cities, assuming a favorable location (+2 bonus is more than adequate). I frequently don't even get a building, and I only use religious units to convert my own cities. There is a synergy between the madrassa (which gives science and faith, the fpt bonus is based on your Campus' bonus, not the Holy Site. Madrassas also unlock much earlier at Theology, which if you are going down any sort of faith purchasing strategies towards Reformed Church (Theocracy) you are going to be need Theology anyway. So you get your mamluk (all purpose unit whilst you set up your expands/infrastructure), continue to tech science towards districts/ military techs, while your science building is unlocked via the Civic tree. It's something that no other civ can do.

 

[jollywonk]

Couple things. definitely agree with your first paragraph re heavy chariots/mamluks/ stirrups beeline.
I only build 1 holy site amongst the first few cities, assuming a favorable location (+2 bonus is more than adequate). I frequently don't even get a building, and I only use religious units to convert my own cities. There is a synergy between the madrassa (which gives science and faith, the fpt bonus is based on your Campus' bonus, not the Holy Site. Madrassas also unlock much earlier at Theology, which if you are going down any sort of faith purchasing strategies towards Reformed Church (Theocracy) you are going to be need Theology anyway. So you get your mamluk (all purpose unit whilst you set up your expands/infrastructure), continue to tech science towards districts/ military techs, while your science building is unlocked via the Civic tree. It's something that no other civ can do.

Right, getting a Madrassa on the civic tree is a cool benefit, also worth mentioning is that it's an era earlier. Looking at the yields, +1 science and maybe +3 faith is not that compelling, but getting +5 science an era before everyone else is clearly a big number.

I might need to shift my thinking on the Mamluk like you said and realize it can transition into being a defensive unit that keeps you alive while you get Madrassas up. Then you can beeline Military Science (with boosts for building 2 universities and killing a unit with a knight along the way), or stay on the same tech path and hit Musketman and Bombard fast, or eventually do both and get to tanks. Still working out a thesis on this one.

 

[Soffacet]

Arabia is correctly rated. Unresourced March Knights are legit. Universities at Theology make your post-conquest ecoboom silky smooth. At some point you pop a religion with almost no investment. You don't have to get Worship buildings in every city right away if you don't want to. Plop them down at pop 10 and there is still plenty of game to go.

I don't see how they are similar to Russia. Russia usually isn't going to try to conquer their neighbor at Stirrups.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

A large resistance to investing in Holy sites is the disappointment of not getting a religion to show for it. Obviously you don't have to worry about that with Saladin.
People think Arabia is a religious civ. It can be, but doesn't have to be. It's a military civ that uses faith and science that can be reliably built for a mid-game boom. Faith isn't the best currency, but if you have a good mixture of gold, and faith... all can be used to acquire units with Theocracy. You can push your science and production into whatever else you need.

I think Arabia, similar to Russia, is right where they need to be. Very good if played to their strengths, but not so good that they are bound to be nerfed due to some ridiculous part of their design. (Germany, Sumeria, Scythia, etc.)

 

[jaegybomb]

But you aren't even guaranteed to pop last prophet in MP. That requires everyone else bothering to found a religion in a reasonable amount of time. 1 era early university is the 1 meaningful bonus they get and it hardly warrants playing defensively and trying to out tech civs with actual bonuses.

 

[Soffacet]

A large resistance to investing in Holy sites is the disappointment of not getting a religion to show for it. Obviously you don't have to worry about that with Saladin.
People think Arabia is a religious civ. It can be, but doesn't have to be. It's a military civ that uses faith and science that can be reliably built for a mid-game boom. Faith isn't the best currency, but if you have a good mixture of gold, and faith... all can be used to acquire units with Theocracy. You can push your science and production into whatever else you need.

I think Arabia, similar to Russia, is right where they need to be. Very good if played to their strengths, but not so good that they are bound to be nerfed due to some ridiculous part of their design. (Germany, Sumeria, Scythia, etc.)

I don't know if that's quite true. Religion is so deprioritized in MP that if you really want one you can obviously have one. The resistance to Holy Sites is that they take up district slots and hammers and don't offer timely returns on the investment. As the game goes on the opportunity cost of 1 slot and a few hammers becomes less and less. Meanwhile the prospective benefit of implementing that religion across your growing empire becomes more and more. So eventually there's no reason not to get one if they are still available.

But you aren't even guaranteed to pop last prophet in MP. That requires everyone else bothering to found a religion in a reasonable amount of time. 1 era early university is the 1 meaningful bonus they get and it hardly warrants playing defensively and trying to out tech civs with actual bonuses.

The no-investment aspect of The Last Prophet is the 2nd most significant part of the 3rd most significant aspect of their kit. The more important part is that their religion is guaranteed, which means that they don't need to dedicate early hammers to Holy Sites to ensure that they get to use their entire kit. And the more important aspects of their kit are Mamluks and Madrasas, which you can even tech simultaneously if you really want to.

Arabia is a hybrid civ with a very specific and powerful plan. They conquer their neighbor, beat everyone to Industrialization, ecoboom off of roughly twice as many Factories as a generic peaceful civ would have, and run away with the game from there.

Anyways, if you are sitting there after having conquered your neighbor with Mamluk and no one is generating any GPP, at that point you can plop down a Holy Site and get it over with. At that point, the opportunity cost is almost nothing and you might even get Work Ethic, Church Property, Defender of the Faith, etc. The Last Prophet is just a safety net which means at the very least you will get Zen Meditation or something. Once you have your neighbor's cities it doesn't much matter which beliefs you get, almost anything will help you to keep running away with the game.