FilthyRobot's MP Tier Rankings 1.0

[MaximusPlatypus]

Spoiler :

1. Scythia
2. Sumeria
3. Germany
4. Russia
5. China
6. Arabia
7. Rome
8. Aztec
9. Kongo
10. Greece-Gorgo
11. Egypt
12. Greece-Pericles
13. England
14. India
15. Japan
16. Brazil
17. France
18. America
19. Spain
20. Norway

What do you think of Filthy Robot's first tier rankings? Keep in mind, he plays almost exclusively MP.

He talks about the rationale for each of his rankings in the vid, if you haven't seen it link below.

Discuss...

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Looks about right to me. I was surprised to see Greece and Rome so low, but hearing his explanation of how useless 2-move melee units are, that kind of makes sense. Less big of a deal in SP because outmaneuvering the AI is easy even with very slow units, but in MP, probably not so much.

 

[steveg700]

Never cared much for FilthyRobot's Youtube vids. He believes in heavily-scripted, always-do-this-never-do-that notion of optimized gameplay. Big on absolutes, not so much on imagination or experimentation. Maybe that's what makes him good at MP, but that has little bearing on SP, which is how the vast majority of us play.

 

[A+ombomb]

In the first few multiplayer tournaments, rome was virtually unanimous. Although scythia is also very good (due to abuse of double horse), rome is unparalleled. +2 culture per city matters way too much, and the other aspects of rome are still quite good (legions, immediate roads, money bonus trade).

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

Looks about right to me. I was surprised to see Greece and Rome so low, but hearing his explanation of how useless 2-move melee units are, that kind of makes sense. Less big of a deal in SP because outmaneuvering the AI is easy even with very slow units, but in MP, probably not so much.

Filthy doesn't think much of the Theater district, but places the highest weight on unique districts (which sounds about right even in SP). Also apparently not much of Hoplites (I think they are kinda meh-- but better in sp) but loves the bonus slots. The bonus wildcard slot alone makes Greece viable, albeit not dominating, on any map. Same goes for Rome and the free culture/roads. He hates melee units lol.

 

[Victoria]

MP is a completely different game from what I play, I respect his point of view and am not surprised by the rankings. I agree the approach is a little robotic.
A few weeks into a new game the list will not move but its not a biggie.
There will never be a definitive list for SP as it is sooo personal but an MP list has its interest.

I would like to see "how boring" as a criteria. That is more like an SP stat of value.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

MP is a completely different game from what I play, I respect his point of view and am not surprised by the rankings. I agree the approach is a little robotic.
A few weeks into a new game the list will not move but its not a biggie.
There will never be a definitive list for SP as it is sooo personal but an MP list has its interest.

I would like to see "how boring" as a criteria. That is more like an SP stat of value.

I agree with everything you posted. Single player is completely subjective. I loved playing some "garbage" civs in CiV as they were fun or encouraged a unique playstyle. Multiplayer by nature has to be predictable and balanced, it will be interesting to see what kind of buffs the NQMod guys come up with for the various civs. IIRC in 5 Sweden (among others) was completely overhauled to be viable in multiplayer. I have no idea what they would have to do with civs like Norway and Spain... right now they are a lost cause (or at least that's what the meta is)

 

[Namæless]

MP is a completely different game from what I play, I respect his point of view and am not surprised by the rankings. I agree the approach is a little robotic.
A few weeks into a new game the list will not move but its not a biggie.
There will never be a definitive list for SP as it is sooo personal but an MP list has its interest.

I would like to see "how boring" as a criteria. That is more like an SP stat of value.

100% agree

 

[Amrunril]

Filthy doesn't think much of the Theater district, but places the highest weight on unique districts (which sounds about right even in SP).

This makes sense to me. Anyone with a unique district essentially has a conditional version of Germany's UA before you even start thinking about the actual unique features. As for the list overall, I haven't played competitive multiplayer, but with a few exceptions (I would have expected Japan and Brazil to be a bit higher) the rankings are about what I'd expect. I am a bit surprised to see Arabia and Russia as high as they are, though. Is religion really important in multiplayer, or are their other bonuses stronger than I'm giving them credit for?

It's also interesting to think about what this list implies about overall game balance. It seems like the early game cavalry policy is a bit strong (though I think Scythia's 2 for 1 would be cray even without it), and Germany is clearly the biggest beneficiary of a production focused metagame. China, on the other hand, manages to make the number 5 spot despite its UA demanding production, which suggests it could easily shoot to the top if the balance between production and science/culture shifts in future patches.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

I am a bit surprised to see Arabia and Russia as high as they are, though. Is religion really important in multiplayer, or are their other bonuses stronger than I'm giving them credit for?

It's not the religion, it's the unique horse units. Cavalry are the strongest MP units by far. The Mameluke is particularly ridiculous since, as it's a resourceless Knight, you can literally just open Animal Husbandry->Horseback Riding->Stirrups and then go kill someone. (Maybe stopping by at Wheel to build some heavy chariots that can be upgraded). Ridiculous. The Cossack's ability to move after attacking is really good. Russia grabbing extra tiles is also strong.

(Note that the Rough Rider is not nearly as esteemed as these other UUs because its bonuses are much less powerful than the Cossacks and because you can't upgrade Horsemen into Rough Riders.)

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

Arabia is a military civ that happens to use faith to either purchase units for conquest, or freeing up your production to develop your cities. All of the Arabian bonuses are synergistic and empire-building if used correctly.

As far as Russia, the FPT from Lavras is insane and the Cossack is arguably the best UU in the game. The ability to attack and withdraw was wildly underestimated by a lot of people.

 

[redwings1340]

Looks pretty good, though I have a feeling this may not last in its entirety when balance patches come in to play. Civs with bonuses towards tourism and religion are being rated lower because tourism and religion aren't good in MP, and any balance patches that improves theatre districts or improve religion bonuses has the potential to push some civs much higher. A religion buff, for instance, could easily put Russia in teir 1, while moving Japan and Brazil up considerably. A general tourism buff or late game science slowdown could make America viable for its late game bonuses too.

 

[notque]

I agree with everything you posted. Single player is completely subjective. I loved playing some "garbage" civs in CiV as they were fun or encouraged a unique playstyle. Multiplayer by nature has to be predictable and balanced, it will be interesting to see what kind of buffs the NQMod guys come up with for the various civs. IIRC in 5 Sweden (among others) was completely overhauled to be viable in multiplayer. I have no idea what they would have to do with civs like Norway and Spain... right now they are a lost cause (or at least that's what the meta is)

We (NQMod guys) fixed religion today, and beta tested it. Makes religion viable. Also made war weariness more reasonable. Upped war weariness on nukes, added the amazing production queue, and new better trade routes. Did a bunch more changes around online game speed.

Today was the best game I've ever played on multi. Multifacted and fun. Filthy will end up playing it tomorrow morning, interested to see how his opinions change on the tier list.

 

[notque]

(Note that the Rough Rider is not nearly as esteemed as these other UUs because its bonuses are much less powerful than the Cossacks and because you can't upgrade Horsemen into Rough Riders.)

They are also more expensive for a reason I cannot understand. I may end up cutting them down to the Cossak cost, and maybe even upping cossacks.

 

[notque]

Arabia is a military civ that happens to use faith to either purchase units for conquest, or freeing up your production to develop your cities. All of the Arabian bonuses are synergistic and empire-building if used correctly.

As far as Russia, the FPT from Lavras is insane and the Cossack is arguably the best UU in the game. The ability to attack and withdraw was wildly underestimated by a lot of people.

Attack, Withdraw, and heal.

 

[Ryika]

There will never be a definitive list for SP

True, but that's mostly because it's really boring for most people to just beat up AIs with optimized strategies over and over again.

If you had people dedicated to playing that way you'd totally be able to get an objective list, the only reason the idea of a definitive list for SP is even controversial is that people who don't care about efficiency and care more about playing "their way" think that somehow their opinion matters in a discussion about objective strength of a Civilization. Of course their opinions are meaningless in that framework, and if you break it down by caring about results instead of opinions, going at it with the same mindset one would go about creating a Multiplayer Tier list, then creating the definitive list for SP would not be a problem.

 

[jollywonk]

Fairly reasonable MP list for the amount of playtime we have into the game. As he notes, he hasn't had time to play with every single bonus in the game. A good example is Kongo, which has a respectable position on the list, but he primarily bases it on the Mbanza neighborhood replacement. While the Mbanza is very good, I would argue the 5 palace slots for great works and double GPP points gives them the best culture game out of any civ and is their most powerful bonus. I would move them up above Aztec and China at least.

Most surprised to see how high Sumeria, China, and Aztec ranked. I haven't faced a brutal War Cart rush yet, but I don't really see much power for Sumeria beyond the early game. China is clearly solid but #5 is a few slots higher than I was expecting. I haven't given Aztec a go but I would have Gorgo ahead of Aztec.

Slightly surprised to see Rome as low as it is given their popularity, but generally think it's about in the right spot.

Agree with Arabia and Russia being up at the top of the list.

Best line of the video for me: "What am I doing as Norway? Wishing I was some other civ besides Norway."

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

We (NQMod guys) fixed religion today, and beta tested it. Makes religion viable. Also made war weariness more reasonable. Upped war weariness on nukes, added the amazing production queue, and new better trade routes. Did a bunch more changes around online game speed.

Today was the best game I've ever played on multi. Multifacted and fun. Filthy will end up playing it tomorrow morning, interested to see how his opinions change on the tier list.

Thanks for your efforts, i'm going to test it today on a custom map. I didn't d/l 1.0 so we'll see what 2.0 has to offer.

 

[tommynt]

this game is at best at a beta status - with some things being ridic op, why do people bother with mp and see go figure who is best at abusing?

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

this game is at best at a beta status - with some things being ridic op, why do people bother with mp and see go figure who is best at abusing?

because you can't have a community unless people play, even a broken game. MP mod community has helped developed a lot of the balance, UI, and tech/religion mods in past games... that's why people bother.