FilthyRobot's MP Tier Rankings 1.0

[MaximusPlatypus]

Nothing more hilarious than sending a settler or two and plopping expansions down near the front and immediately faith buying a half decent carpet to add to your invasion. (you obviously don't have to be Arabia to do this)
Even if the invasion is less than successful, your wonderwhoring/ SimCity neighbor will **** his pants and immediately go off his plan and start building military

 

[jaegybomb]

Yea, I'm probably playing them wrong beelining chariots into mamluks and getting no real use out of the classic era universities. Getting hubs and madrasas down first and then attacking makes more sense.

 

[A+ombomb]

Arabia is surprisingly good. The only qualm I have, is if you do get the free prophet....you both need a holy site right away to use it, and the religious perks are largely already taken (there is a very clear distinction between good and bad religious abilities). I would say that as the game evolves, and the abilities of religions all become viable and interesting, arabia will become exponentially better.

However, there is no way in hell that they are better than rome! Especially post patch. The free culture alone makes rome a giant step up, for economic development - even if the border expansion locations are a little silly sometimes. Then consider the increased rates of movement provided by free roads, especially if you play the hill heavy HB maps.

 

[jaegybomb]

Even Filthy has said recently that Rome is broken and there is no counter to their general rush. 60 combat strength legions vs horses out heal the damage horses can do them just from promotions alone.

 

[trojan13]

Even Filthy has said recently that Rome is broken and there is no counter to their general rush.

There is only few way to stop their oligarchy legion plus general - grab general before Rome or get defender of faith belief.

 

[A+ombomb]

It's even worse with the new rapid religion expansion, if they get crusader. That **** is evil. If they have stone and get henge....then it's even cost effective. 60 power legions? More like 75, if you include the crusade and the adjacency bonuses. Archers do about 4 damage each lol.

I really like that crusade and dotf exist, because they give religion a good reason to exist. But....I personally think the overall bonuses a unit can get needs a hard cap, or a logarithmic scale. Having it be linear is just too much room for abuse with stacking, because the damage done by accruing each marginal increase in power *is* exponential.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

I haven't played as Rome yet, but they are a formidable foe. They seemed to get thrown out of the lottery very quickly. I haven't seen Arabia banned very often, and people are starting to get wary of Russia. Those damn Cossacks are beasts how they can cycle in, attack and withdraw. Yikes.

 

[jollywonk]

Even Filthy has said recently that Rome is broken and there is no counter to their general rush. 60 combat strength legions vs horses out heal the damage horses can do them just from promotions alone.

Really surprised he would say that. There are counters.

There is only few way to stop their oligarchy legion plus general - grab general before Rome or get defender of faith belief.

These are it. You have to get DOF, or deny them the first GG, or do both if you can (run Encampment Training district project). You get archers sitting in districts with the +10 promo (45 strength with DOF, then 50 at level 2), then tech to crossbows. If you can get walls up, now they have to bring a siege tower.

One thing I've learned the hard way is you have to do what you can to deny Rome the gold to upgrade archers into crossbows. Mainly this means prevent them from sending trade routes to a commercial city-state like Amsterdam. They should use most of their gold on upgrading into Legions, but you can't allow them to also have enough money to upgrade more crossbows than you can. The easiest way is to keep a scout poking around the CS ready to plunder the route and also put all of your envoys into it. If they actually send a Legion to guard the trade route, it will be harder.

If you think about sitting a 35 strength swordsman inside your DOF territory with either the first or at worst 2nd GG available, fortified, with 2 units supporting it, and you've delayed Rome long enough to also hit Oligarchy yourself, you have a 35+10+5+6+4+4 = 64 strength unit yourself, before the level 1 promotions. Rome's all-in play is strong and a bit annoying to counter, but in the end the Legion is 5 strength better and that's it. Even if they show up the very second that they have oligarchy and you don't, there are enough tools to hold them off until you get there too.

Just watch out for the ensuing transition into crossbows and make sure you can actually pay to field them. I also don't like bringing horses against Legions and Archers/Crossbows because horses don't have the +10 defense vs ranged promotion that swordsman do.

 

[Soffacet]

Yea, I'm probably playing them wrong beelining chariots into mamluks and getting no real use out of the classic era universities. Getting hubs and madrasas down first and then attacking makes more sense.

...?

We've been trying to tell you to Mamluk rush instead of eco first this whole time.

Arabia is surprisingly good. The only qualm I have, is if you do get the free prophet....you both need a holy site right away to use it, and the religious perks are largely already taken (there is a very clear distinction between good and bad religious abilities). I would say that as the game evolves, and the abilities of religions all become viable and interesting, arabia will become exponentially better.

However, there is no way in hell that they are better than rome! Especially post patch. The free culture alone makes rome a giant step up, for economic development - even if the border expansion locations are a little silly sometimes. Then consider the increased rates of movement provided by free roads, especially if you play the hill heavy HB maps.

Rome deserves higher than it's position in the OP because our understanding of the game has further developed in the time since the list was made. At the time, non-cav units were thought to be useless for conquest, and so Rome was thought to be just a solid defensive eco civ. Which is very good, but debatably lower in potential than civs that can consistently eat their neighbor. Now that Oligarchy/GG Legions are a thing, Rome can do anything.

As for the value of a last religion, I think that there are enough decent beliefs to go around. Worst case (IMO), Work Ethic, Zen Meditation, Jesuit Education, DoF, Church Property, and Tithe are gone, in which case Primacy, Stewardship, Crusade, Religious Community, and Feed the World are all still available. Tbh I've not encountered the worst case very often as everyone has their own opinion on belief strength. But in any case, you're obviously not counting on the last religion to instantly turbocharge your eco. The mindset is more that any little bit helps.

 

[jaegybomb]

Mamluk rush is pretty crap though.

 

[A+ombomb]

How on earth is mamluk rush crap? Lol. 6 chariots upgraded to mamluk, and you probably instantly kill 2 cities if not a whole civ. I've run over double general rome with this around turn 45.

 

[jollywonk]

You took 48 strength Mamluks and ran over 50 strength Legions? Unless it was 6 Mamluks against 2 Legions, I don't understand.

I was forced to attack a Greek player once with a Mamluk rush - my land was super bad, coastal tundra near flat desert and flat plains. Fighting Hoplites isn't ideal, but I nabbed two Great Generals with district projects, spent like 500 gold upgrading 7 or 8 58 strength Mamluks against 45 strength Hoplites (vastly cheaper and more numerous of course), and didn't break through, even with several more Mamluks reinforcing. I was one turn from taking the first city when walls got completed and shut me out (I think melee does 15% damage against walls?), and then within 7-8 turns or so he had a few of his own knights on the field via upgraded chariots - which makes a fair amount of sense, because the only timing advantage Arabia really has is not needing to tech Bronze Working (in which case you also are not building an encampment and bringing any GG's, like I did). Maybe my bad land didn't help in this instance and I'm sure somehow it could have been executed better (I'm pretty sure I was in the early 40s of turn time but can't remember exactly). I don't know if I'd call it a crap rush, but it's nowhere near unstoppable.

The equilibrium in the game favors the defender, and a Mamluk rush doesn't do enough to disturb that equilibrium (even in a best case of fighting 35 strength units before 40 turns). I think a standard civ taking a slower combined-arms approach with crossbowman, some knights, a siege tower, and a GG is better positioned to be successful.

In my mind, if you end up reducing Arabia to mainly playing for the Madrassas - 5 science an era earlier - why is Brazil so bad? They stand good odds of being able to build 2 Campuses with +6 adjacency, and then they can run the double-adjacency card just as early (and still tech military), with less production investment, and go on to create their own Musketman or Cavalry beeline rush.

 

[notque]

It's even worse with the new rapid religion expansion, if they get crusader. That **** is evil. If they have stone and get henge....then it's even cost effective. 60 power legions? More like 75, if you include the crusade and the adjacency bonuses. Archers do about 4 damage each lol.

I really like that crusade and dotf exist, because they give religion a good reason to exist. But....I personally think the overall bonuses a unit can get needs a hard cap, or a logarithmic scale. Having it be linear is just too much room for abuse with stacking, because the damage done by accruing each marginal increase in power *is* exponential.

Yesterday we played with power scaling a bit on the strength difference,and it made all the difference in enjoyment. The modifiers/strength difference just gets too harsh, too fast.

 

[jaegybomb]

In my mind, if you end up reducing Arabia to mainly playing for the Madrassas - 5 science an era earlier - why is Brazil so bad? They stand good odds of being able to build 2 Campuses with +6 adjacency, and then they can run the double-adjacency card just as early (and still tech military), with less production investment, and go on to create their own Musketman or Cavalry beeline rush.

There's still a big difference between a mediocre, middle of the pack military bonus like Arabia and none at all like Brazil.

 

[jaegybomb]

I think a lot of the general hate stems from the fact that people are still underprioritizing them. If you are fighting early, which you have to do on a map like pangea, everyone should be competing for generals and defender of the faith. Fighting without generals is like trying to go to space without the production great people. No one should ever be allowed to grab all of them or even multiples really. Overlooking generals is also why there is this notion that vanilla horsemen are simply the best. They make India and Kongo viable and push Rome up there on par with Scythia and Sumeria.

 

[Soffacet]

You took 48 strength Mamluks and ran over 50 strength Legions? Unless it was 6 Mamluks against 2 Legions, I don't understand.

I was forced to attack a Greek player once with a Mamluk rush - my land was super bad, coastal tundra near flat desert and flat plains. Fighting Hoplites isn't ideal, but I nabbed two Great Generals with district projects, spent like 500 gold upgrading 7 or 8 58 strength Mamluks against 45 strength Hoplites (vastly cheaper and more numerous of course), and didn't break through, even with several more Mamluks reinforcing. I was one turn from taking the first city when walls got completed and shut me out (I think melee does 15% damage against walls?), and then within 7-8 turns or so he had a few of his own knights on the field via upgraded chariots - which makes a fair amount of sense, because the only timing advantage Arabia really has is not needing to tech Bronze Working (in which case you also are not building an encampment and bringing any GG's, like I did). Maybe my bad land didn't help in this instance and I'm sure somehow it could have been executed better (I'm pretty sure I was in the early 40s of turn time but can't remember exactly). I don't know if I'd call it a crap rush, but it's nowhere near unstoppable.

The equilibrium in the game favors the defender, and a Mamluk rush doesn't do enough to disturb that equilibrium (even in a best case of fighting 35 strength units before 40 turns). I think a standard civ taking a slower combined-arms approach with crossbowman, some knights, a siege tower, and a GG is better positioned to be successful.

In my mind, if you end up reducing Arabia to mainly playing for the Madrassas - 5 science an era earlier - why is Brazil so bad? They stand good odds of being able to build 2 Campuses with +6 adjacency, and then they can run the double-adjacency card just as early (and still tech military), with less production investment, and go on to create their own Musketman or Cavalry beeline rush.

Sounds like you got fairly unlucky. Bad tiles, wary opponent, anti-cav UU. If it were guaranteed to work no matter what, it would be OP.

Brazil is a bit of a dice-roll in terms of exactly how good your campuses will be. But it is certainly possible that if you are going to play Arabia peacefully, you would be better off with Brazil. With the right tiles, Brazil will generate about plenty of science through Natural Philosophy without needing to spend hammers to set up the Madrasas. I used to underrate the Street Carnival but +2 passive amenities is exactly enough to jump from breakpoint to breakpoint, so it consistently translates into tangible yields (5% non-food). Half-price and uncapped makes it worthwhile to build, eventually. Kind of a lesser but more practical version of Righteousness of the Faith, tbh.

I think a lot of the general hate stems from the fact that people are still underprioritizing them. If you are fighting early, which you have to do on a map like pangea, everyone should be competing for generals and defender of the faith. Fighting without generals is like trying to go to space without the production great people. No one should ever be allowed to grab all of them or even multiples really. Overlooking generals is also why there is this notion that vanilla horsemen are simply the best. They make India and Kongo viable and push Rome up there on par with Scythia and Sumeria.

I agree that once more people catch on to the importance of competing for GGs and DoF, the game will be quite different.

 

[Lewi11]

He's probably right about melee units being useless. But that's why you use a unit Rebalance Mod. Nerf all ranged unit's combat strength, give anti-cavalry a bigger bonus against cavalry (the vanilla +10 sees them still stalemating against the units they're meant to counter) and buff infantry combat strength a tad higher than horses.

This creates a scissors\paper\rock effect and makes all unit classes useful. Scythia will probably still be overpowered but the civs that suffer because they have unique melee units should even out with the rest.

 

[trojan13]

It's even worse with the new rapid religion expansion, if they get crusader. That **** is evil. If they have stone and get henge....then it's even cost effective. 60 power legions? More like 75, if you include the crusade and the adjacency bonuses. Archers do about 4 damage each lol.

I really like that crusade and dotf exist, because they give religion a good reason to exist. But....I personally think the overall bonuses a unit can get needs a hard cap, or a logarithmic scale. Having it be linear is just too much room for abuse with stacking, because the damage done by accruing each marginal increase in power *is* exponential.

Crusade is worse than 2 generals if you combine it to UU with 2 movements, such as Legion, Varu, etc because of movement rule in civ6.

It's not abusing. It's about competing for those GG and belief. You should really commit your early productions to get 1pick in order to securing dof, crusade or first generals, if you play against people who already knew these mechanics. Plus there is general counter - setting campus up and having next era units faster while others are competing older era generals because most units have strength difference of 10-20 per era, which worth 2 generals.

He's probably right about melee units being useless. But that's why you use a unit Rebalance Mod. Nerf all ranged unit's combat strength, give anti-cavalry a bigger bonus against cavalry (the vanilla +10 sees them still stalemating against the units they're meant to counter) and buff infantry combat strength a tad higher than horses.

This creates a scissors\paper\rock effect and makes all unit classes useful. Scythia will probably still be overpowered but the civs that suffer because they have unique melee units should even out with the rest.

I usually play open game in general steam connection. It's hard to see a game with mod. I found few rooms with HB mods but I don't have it so I can't enter.
I am not saying mod is better or worse. It is just too hard to play modded game in current civ6 mp system, no download of mods/maps from host, no steam workshops, not even supporting UI mods, etc.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

Has Filthy abandoned Civ 6? it seems like I haven't seen a game stream from him in ages.

 

[komodowaran]

Has Filthy abandoned Civ 6? it seems like I haven't seen a game stream from him in ages.

No he has not, he is just waiting for the spring patch since atm there are to many gliches and problems in civ 6 that make multiplayer problematic (Generals stacking,Overflow abuse,UI gliching,imbalanced maps,Colosseum,usw)
So for the Moment he is playing EU4 and other games but im sure he wil be back once spring patch hits