Final Civ4 expansion (feedback please)

[seasnake]

Here is my idea for the final Civ IV expansion: I want to get feedback. If you have a moment to kill, here you go:

1 New Trait: Strategic (Str)
-20% espionage cost
Mounted, Armor units start with Flanking I
Double production Stable, Airport

Changed Trait:
Imperialistic: Double production Jails, Customs House

6 New Civs:
Pacifc Islanders
UU: Tiki Warriors (replaces warrior)
Moves 2, 1 first strike
UB: Botanical Garden (replaces menagerie)
+2 Happiness, +1 Health 10% culture
Leaders:
Queen Salote: Stra/Cre
King Kamehameha: Str/Phi

Poland
UU: Hussar (replaces cuirasser)
+25% v. Gunpowder
1-2 First strikes
UB: Sejmik (replaces courthouse)
-50% War Weariness in City
Leaders:
King Jan III Sobieski: Str/Ind

Colombia
UU: Batallon Rifles (replaces riflemen)
Strength 12, cost 95 hammers
+50 v. Mounted, Melee Units
UB: Plaza Mayor (replaces Industrial Park)
No health penalties, free engineer and can turn 2 into engineers.
Leaders:
General Simon Bolivar: Imp/Str

Kongo
UU: Guerilla Swordsmen
Other units’ terrain defense bonuses ineffective.
UB: Trade Company (replaces Customs House).
Additional 1 Happiness; 2 gold for all luxury goods in city
Leaders:
King Nzinga Mbemba: Cha/Ind


Hattay
UU: 3-man Chariot (replaces chariot, requires archery).
Deals collateral damage (capped at 40%, 3 units per attack)
UB: Archives (replaces library)
+35% science
Leaders:
King Mursili II: Str/Agg

Israel
UU: Merkava (replaces Tank)
Immune to first strikes
Receives defensive bonuses
UB: Mossad (replaces intelligence agency)
+75% Espionage points in city.
Leaders:
King Solomon: Ind/Phi
David Ben-Gurion: Pro/Org

6 New Leaders for preexisting civs
Abu Bakr of the Arabs: Str/Pro
Carlos V of Spain: Str/Exp
Emperor Meiji of Japan: Str/Org
Leif Erickson of the Vikings: Str/Fin
Chief Hiawatha of the Native Americans: Cre/Cha
Queen Theodora of the Byzantines: Str/Spi

One leader change from BTS:
Charles de Gaulle of France: Cha/Str

New building:
Menagerie
Can be built with aesthetics
+1 happiness, +1 health for 20% culture

Building changes from BTS:
Castles, Citadel now obsolete with Chemistry
Dun adds 10% espionage defense
Scotland Yard requires printing press
Academy requires Literature
Nuclear plants provide free science specialist
Certain Buildings provide great diplomat points

New units:
Diplomat: Can conduct diplomatic missions in rival civs capital using espionage points.
Can be assassinated
Can Join City as specialist (+1 happiness, +2 culture, +2 Espionage)

Special Forces: Available with stealth
Str. 28, moves 1, cost 180 hammers
Can paradrop (range 7), starts with commando and amphibious.
Marines, Seals, Paratroopers promote to Special Forces.

Great Diplomat: Can start Golden Age
Can build Embassy (+3 relations, -10 percent espionage cost against civ).
Can join city as specialist: (+2 happinnes, +4 culture, +4 Espionage, +3 GP).

Change to Units in BTS:
Great General can start golden age
Spies can assassinate diplomats (not great diplomat) as part of espionage missions.

New Wonders:
Empire State Building: -50% corporate maintenance. (Available with corporation)
Petra: Doubles line of sight of passive espionage, civ borders. (Available with Construction)

Changes to Wonders from BTS:
Certain Wonders now increase odds of getting great diplomat.

New optional gameplay: Regicide mode
You kill the king piece of a civ, the civ collapses into barbarian states. Kings are always last to fall when the city they're in falls, are immune to collateral damage, and have a movement of 2. One for each leader. Optional mode for quicker play.

Explanation: A reworking of diplomacy with the Great Diplomat:
Diplomats can be built after alphabet and conduct diplomatic missions, you can pay espionage points to do diplomatic missions. If carried out, thse missions successfully present options to the other civ to pick. Diplomats need open borders to enter (unless you are at war).

For example, trying to end a war, you can send a diplomat and pay some diplo points to offer a treaty. If the mission is successful but treaty is refused, war weariness goes up for the civ that refused. All diplomatic missions have a failure chance. No relations penalty for using a diplomat in someone's civ.

Diplo missions must be conducted in capitals. Diplomats can be killed by spies. If the word that it was your spy who killed a diplomat reaches the home civ, it is minus for relations. You can send your spies into other civs capitals and try to kill incoming diplomats if you think your enemies are getting too cozy.

The great diplomat can join as a specialist, adding espionage points, happiness and culture. They can build embassies, which give a permanent relations boost (embassies must be built in capitals of other civs). Their special ability is to end revolts in any city and bring them into the fold (Great for big cities you conquer). A city that has had a Great diplomat used to end its revolts won't ask to rejoin its mother civ again, you gain that status. Great diplomats have full diplomatic immunity and cannot be assassinated.

The great diplomat comes about from certain buildings and wonders, like spies do. Barbarians don't recognize diplomatic immunity, so if a barbs touch your diplomat he's gone. The great diplomat is likewise vulnerable, so he needs an escort as far as the borders of your neighbor (makes him different).

Finally the Great Diplomat can start a golden age.
This way, people who don't want to commit random acts of terror or sabotage have an outlet for their espionage points. Missions include trying to get contact with other civs, arranging political weddings or treaty, free trade agreements, or creating a relations boost. If the other civ refuses, there are some consequences that still help the player that successfully pulls off a mission. Espionage points accrued by the great spy can be spent by your diplomats (Knowledge is power) as they try to maneuver your foes.

 

[anonymous4402]

A lot better thought-out than the norm, though it might be better to change more old leaders to Str instead of adding a bunch of leaders just to fit the Str combinations. I mean, Leif Erikson is Strategic? A good distribution of new civs, though 'Pacific Islander' is a bit too much like 'Native American'. 'Polynesian' would probably be a better name. And hopefully a lot of diplomatic options would be added with the addition of a Great Diplomat feature.

And Empire State Building is a bit strong. Maybe -25%, as -50% is basically cutting maintenance to one-third if you're already running Free Market. And Petra seems too weak, especially as the AI will get absolutely no benefit from it at all.

 

[ezwip]

If they release another expansion I'm going to have to dedicate a hard drive soley to this game. That would be pushing what 10 gigs at that point?

 

[seasnake]

And Empire State Building is a bit strong. Maybe -25%, as -50% is basically cutting maintenance to one-third if you're already running Free Market. And Petra seems too weak, especially as the AI will get absolutely no benefit from it at all.

Hmmm, I like that idea about the 25%, I guess it does stack better with Free Market. Good point, I'm changing my original draft.
As for Petra, it's cost would be fairly cheap for the time because its not an impressive bonus. Still, being able to see for 2 tiles in all directions gives you another turn to know if the enemies coming, and seeing that much of a civ through passive espionage I think could be dead useful.

I'm open to a couple of strategic leader changes, of course. Leif doesn't particularly fit, but by and large I like the ones I've suggested. Still, any suggestions on who is currently a leader can could become strategic?

I figure handling Pacific Islander this way made as much sense as Native Americans, I know a lot of people don't like it but I think it works and allows you to have more access to leaders/units/buildings throughout Oceania. Just saying

 

[Slax]

I'd like to see cannons come a little earlier. I know I can beeline, but it always seems like I am still using catapults with much more modern units alongside.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Well, I hate to break it to you.... but BtS is almost certainly the last expansion to Civ 4.

 

[seasnake]

Well, I hate to break it to you.... but BtS is almost certainly the last expansion to Civ 4.

I doubt it, with all their other projects I doubt Firaxis will launch into a Civ V for a while, and in the meantime if they can make one more pack that doesn't have all the work and changes of BTS but still adds meaningful content ... I don't think they'll miss the chance to capitalize in the meantime. It may be a download-only expansion or something for like 20 bucks, but the demand is there so why not supply?

Just a hunch, but look for one more Xpack before they really launch into Civ V mode. And if fans have figured out what they want to see and how, there's a chance some Firaxian looking at the boards will remember that.

 

[Fugl]

i also think BTS is last, civ3 just had two aswell, civ5 in 211x im guessing

 

[anonymous4402]

Well I'm not too familiar with modding, but it looks like all of this stuff except possibly Great Diplomats could be modded in pretty easily. So this could make a good basis for a well-balanced mod that feels more like a balanced expansion and not something that totally changes the game or throws everything in but the kitchen sink.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I doubt it, with all their other projects I doubt Firaxis will launch into a Civ V for a while, and in the meantime if they can make one more pack that doesn't have all the work and changes of BTS but still adds meaningful content ... I don't think they'll miss the chance to capitalize in the meantime. It may be a download-only expansion or something for like 20 bucks, but the demand is there so why not supply?

Just a hunch, but look for one more Xpack before they really launch into Civ V mode. And if fans have figured out what they want to see and how, there's a chance some Firaxian looking at the boards will remember that.

First, you're assuming there that their next project will be Civ 5, when that's not the case. They're working on Civilization Revolution.

Second, it would be nigh impossible to top BtS, which is likely the path they'd want to go. I therefore don't foresee another expansion at all, or any work on Civ 5 for quite some time....

 

[seasnake]

First, you're assuming there that their next project will be Civ 5, when that's not the case. They're working on Civilization Revolution.

Second, it would be nigh impossible to top BtS, which is likely the path they'd want to go. I therefore don't foresee another expansion at all, or any work on Civ 5 for quite some time....

Actually, its because of Civ Revolutions that I think another Xpack is inevitable. I'm not assuming their next project is Civ V, I'm assuming making Civ V will require a lot of resources and energy and isn't something they can launch into with signficat side projects (Civ Revolutions). However, I think they can create a fun expansion pack with minimal hassle WHILE working on Civ Revolutions and other projects, so it allows them to get more money from the Civ core franchise without having to start V (which will be built from the ground up, I'm sure). Also, I don't think the technology has advanced to the point where you could significantly upgrade the graphics/performance from IV without having very advanced computer. And if they don't overhaul graphics/performance then Civ V will feel like a reworked IV instead of a new product.

It's capitalizing on the market without a significant expenditure in extra labor to make an Xpansion. It's money in their pockets, everyone who has IV can run an expansion now and it takes much less effort to make.

So in other words, I'm assuming a company is motivated by opportunities to maximize current profits. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Lightwave]

Actually, its because of Civ Revolutions that I think another Xpack is inevitable.
[...snipped...]
So in other words, I'm assuming a company is motivated by opportunities to maximize current profits. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This has been my opinion as well. There is a line to draw between milking the customer for more dollars just for the sake of it and producing a quality add-on that will milk the customer for more dollars willingly. IMO as long as they are making enough money, after or along with Civ Revolutions, why wouldn't they do another expansion pack rather than wait until another major project like CivV. From what I understand, BtS is a successful expansion pack; and given the overall quality of work, I would assume that they would put out a good product as a 3rd expansion pack that would likely be welcomed by the players.

On the other hand, what could they add that would not water down the existing game? There are already complaints about maintenance with colonies and corporations, airships.... Not putting those down at the moment, but perhaps the game is getting overloaded?

Also, maybe there is some business research that says that purchase of expansions tend to die out after two.

 

[lulu135]

I like it, the great diplomat idea is very creative and would add some zing to the bland espionage system currently in place. I'd also like to see the spy missions changes to make less MM work, such as removing the silly "going back to the capital in 1 turn" thing.

Special Forces: Available with stealth
Str. 28, moves 1, cost 180 hammers
Can paradrop (range 7), starts with commando and amphibious.
Marines, Seals, Paratroopers promote to Special Forces.

I've added a similar unit in a mod I'm working on. I think 28 str is too strong, it is too close to mechanized infantry, and too overpowered against regular infantry. In my version, the unit is str 24 with 2 first strikes, and a 30% evasion chance for intercepted paradrops. The primary advantage of this unit is the extreme mobility provided by 7 paradrop range and commando. These are very powerful traits, it makes it the only unit able to zip into the heart of enemy territory quickly. The mobility of these units means that the opponent has to spread his defenses a lot more thinly to protect the inner cities, so the strength needs to be lower or else they will be unbalancing.

 

[Slax]

I forsee "Civ 5 : 20th Anniversary of the Civilization Franchise". That would be released in 2011.

 

[gunter]

Don't get offended but in this patch release moment I consider such a thread like spam.

 

[lulu135]

Don't get offended but in this patch release moment I consider such a thread like spam.

Huh? I thought he made a lot of sensible ideas, some of which I'm already working on for a mod. It's too extensive for a mere patch to BTS.

 

[tomaalimosh]

All the new leaders/civs/trait don't seem that good to me... except for King Solomon as Ind/Phi. I mean... if you are going to make an overpowered leader, who else if not the top of the rank

the rest of the changes are ok, with one exception, which is , I think, a minor error:
You can't have diplomats join cities. just like spies don't join cities. Because ppl would simply build them and join them .

What you can have, is a similar sistem as the Spies do: a spy unit, and a spy specialist option.

and you can join the great diplomat, but, like all other GP-specialists, they should not generate GPP.

Other than that, it's a great idea. I would love to have diplomats again in the game

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Don't get me wrong, people; I would love to see another expansion adding a few more leaders to the game, at the very least. Japan, Arabia, and Spain finally get their second leaders, Teddy Roosevelt, Menes or Cleopatra, and other leaders which were considered (look at their concept art) could finally be added, as could the Throne Room.

However, I believe the chances of this happening are virtually nil, and even John Shafer said in an interview that this almost certainly will not happen, "though anything's possible." My advice: do not get your hopes up.

 

[Paideia]

I have to agree with Gaius Octavius. I don't believe in a third expansion either. However, the possibility of Firaxis adding something with a free downloadable patch cannot be entirely dismissed.
Personally, I am going to hold on to the feeble hope that they will release a throne room patch but that's me..

 

[Uberfrog]

As unlikely as a new EP may be, there are still some pretty good ideas there.

Another new leader could be Pachacuti for the Inca (he did essentially begin the Inca Empire) and Sargon for the Sumerians (although Akkadian (a city given to the Babylonians in BtS), he was one of the first, if not the first, to start an empire in history).