Final verdict? Black terrain = new graphics card?

[Szilencer]

I have a 1.1 Ghz Athlon processor with 256 Kb RAM and a 64 Mb Nvidia Geforce 4 MMX card. I had the black terrain effect first and thought that my PC is too weak for the game.
For last resort I updated my driver (with the newest official Forceware), and now the problem is solved!

 

[Elrad2]

Just a quick comment, I was told by someone from the beta team that they had a guy with the Intel Extreme card (no T&L) and the game didn't have the problem we are expiriencing now.

Either im wrong, or something was changed last minute that is causing this problem. (It seems to be affecting all sorts of cards, both ones with and without T&L support). Seems to be we are jumping the gun if we are saying that THAT is the cause, for all we know, it may not even be related.

With the mapvisable = 1 alteration, the game also becomes playable. I'm sure somekind of jury rig can be made fairly easily to make the game "playable" but without revealing the map. Re-coding the entire engine to support non-T&L cards? Nobody expects anyone to do that, infact...I doupt thats the only way to solve this problem.

At the end of the day the Civ4 market isn't the kind that buys heavy graphics machine, you could say its the gamers fault for not checking the specs, fine. But its in CIV's interest to maintain their loyalty base, the majority of which have been running civ on weak machines for years.

CIV 4 isnt selling because its a great game (although it may very well be). It's selling because of how good Civ3 was, and it because of Civ2, and Civ1. I wonder how big of a % of Civ 4 buyers have played the previous games?

I doupt they will full out ignore the player/buyer base that is having problems with the game. I for one have faith in the next few patches to atleast attempt to fix this.

-Elrad

 

[neriana]

I dont think its fair to have civ need a gaming computer. I dont think its a significant minority that play civ and couldnt care less about the graphics. Im not saying my mac IIgs should run civ but I have two pentium 4 computers in my house bought in the last year and civ 4 works on neither of them. I know a lot of people who play civ3 on the side and dont even have computers as new as mine. I would sooner have civ III with some different features than have civ 4 with a black screen.

Then play a Civ 3 mod.

My computer is NOT a "heavy graphics machine". It had good graphics -- not the best -- a couple years ago, now it's rather behind the times (ATI 9600) and can still run things nicely, but I expect to need to upgrade in a year to play new games. Luckily I don't care for FPS's, so I'll never need blazing graphics. But Civ 4 doesn't call for a heavy graphics machine. It calls for T&L, which is nothing. For less than the cost of Civ 3, you can get that, just often not on a laptop, which is not the fault of Firaxis/TakeTwo.

This exact same thing happened with The Sims 2. Dell lies. Best Buy lies. eMachines -- urgh. They sell computers which are basically speedy word processors with an internet connection and substandard parts that they claim will be able to play games. And without video cards! Their business practices are certainly sickening. You can pick up a PS2 from a Best Buy, plug it in, and expect it to run all PS2 games fine without knowing a thing about it. You simply cannot do the same thing with a computer.

I don't understand why anyone would spend such a large chunk of money on something without knowing everything they could about it. One thing to know: age is not an indicator of anything. Your system specifications are what matter, not the date you bought your computer.

 

[Subtestube]

With the mapvisable = 1 alteration, the game also becomes playable. I'm sure somekind of jury rig can be made fairly easily to make the game "playable" but without revealing the map. Re-coding the entire engine to support non-T&L cards? Nobody expects anyone to do that, infact...I doupt thats the only way to solve this problem.

I should note that I've posted about this in another thread. I'm uncertain of how do-able this would be with the SDK tools Firaxis intends to distribute (though I'm certain it would be relatively trivial to code with the full source), but I believe it would work. The first point to note is that the map visible thing works because when rendering the whole map, selective lighting is turned off, and so transform and lighting is disabled. That being as it is, all that one would need to do would be to 'check for T&L' using a straight if statement, and if the system doesn't support it, render black quads over every tile that should have fog of war over it, and then simply render the whole map at 'full brightness'.

This might be a little expensive, but you should make it up in the amount of terrain that wouldn't be fully rasterised - by rendering the quads first and 'above' the actual terrain, they would depth cull (rasterise to the depth buffer, and then not texture/colour them as they'd be behind the nearest polys) the polygons of the terrain itself. Even though you'd be pushing more geometry, you wouldn't be doing as many texture accesses. Meh.. I'm almost categorically sure that this would technically work. Whether it (or something like it) would be fast enough (these non-t&l supporting cards push vertices through the CPU, so that might actually be more expensive than the texture/fragment work you'd be saving), or will ever be implemented is another thing entirely. As I doubt the SDK will have access to the rendering loop, I doubt that anyone outside Firaxis would be able to implement this 'hack'.

 

[joesf35]

OK Willem I suppose you're right. The reason it's so hard to accept is that I'm still paying off my current computer -- a laptop which is un-upgradable. I am a student living on loans, eating noodles etc... I will have money for a new system someday but not in the near future and I was looking forward to playing this game before then.

yep, me too

*and my good buddy also has a laptop with the 7500c

 

[Citizen Philip]

Laptops are not made for 3d games, as much as Alienware and so forth would like you to think: limited battery life, bad screen refresh, they overheat easy and if they *do* have a graphics card they are ripped down (removed circuits, voltage requirements, cooling problems) and modifed to fit in the chassis: sometimes to the point they require non-standard drivers to get them working.

If you cannot render with T&L, chances are its because of the way they ripped down the card for the laptop, not the game. That doesn't mean the Developer can't try to re-code some of their instructions to bypass the limits of your system, but its a problem with your system, not how it was coded. Sometimes a game that will never work properly, will work partially: it will play but something won't be right and it cannot be fixed.

i.e. If there are 7 paths possible using Hardware/Software to render T&L, and your laptop video card cannot process 3 of these paths because of removed functionality, who are you blaming for the problem? Please note that if your card was T&L capable, it should be able to render in the 7 paths.

 

[TheBarnacle]

You can pick up a PS2 from a Best Buy, plug it in, and expect it to run all PS2 games fine without knowing a thing about it. You simply cannot do the same thing with a computer.

I don't understand why anyone would spend such a large chunk of money on something without knowing everything they could about it. One thing to know: age is not an indicator of anything. Your system specifications are what matter, not the date you bought your computer.

i recognize that and agree with you, but at this point in the evolution of PCs, i find it hard to believe there's still so many compatibility issues. whether it's across platforms or with certain sound/vid cards...whatever!!! seriously!

you're right, people should research a little before buying a computer. but truth be told, the 6 month old machine sitting on my desk plays every other game i own just fine. AND it meets the recommended (not minimum) specs.

 

[Willem]

Either im wrong, or something was changed last minute that is causing this problem. (It seems to be affecting all sorts of cards, both ones with and without T&L support). Seems to be we are jumping the gun if we are saying that THAT is the cause, for all we know, it may not even be related.

You're wrong. The game was designed right from the beginning with Hardware T&L support in mind. And no, the black terrain/cheshire cat leader issues are not happening to cards that do have it. If they are, it's because people haven't bothered to upgrade their drivers. And it most definately is happening because your video card doesn't support T&L. And there will be no jury rig possible, making it playable on those cards will require a major rewrite of the game code, which just isn't going to happen.

 

[maartena]

Just a quick comment, I was told by someone from the beta team that they had a guy with the Intel Extreme card (no T&L) and the game didn't have the problem we are expiriencing now.

The 9xx version of Intel's Graphic cards supports software T&L, in other words it lets the main CPU do the calculations. It has been reported that this, fairly new chipset will run Civ 4.

So yeah, if he has a machine that is less then a year old its possible. Too bad that 80% of the laptops and machines out there are still running the 8xx version of Intel's chipset.

 

[maartena]

Again, the point is - Civilization has never been about eye candy and 3d graphics. Civ3 was out well into the DirectX/OpenGL revolution for games, and it dod not require any of this. Most of us were very satisfied with the 2d graphics that Civ3 had to offer. Many of the people complaining about these T&L based issues are not the kind of people that play ANY other games that require hardware T&L. The piece you seem to really miss is that these kind of people do not want to go spend 1k to 2k for a new laptop that does have a magic hardware T&L video card. Granted, for the desktop system complains - go drop $100.00 on a new card and STFU. Its the mobility user implications that has me most bothered by this.

I may step on people's toes here, but the system requirements on the box clearly state the requirement of a hardware T&L video card.

If you had any doubts about your system's ability to play the game, shouldn't you at least have checked if your system actually has that ability? If you buy the game without checking to see if your system actually meets the system requirements for the game, then you have no one to blame but yourself in my opinion.

Laptops were not designed for 3D gaming. There are some manufacturors who have $4,000 laptops that have the newest technology on board so you can play 3D games, but the fact is that those laptops have a mobile version of a chipset that was released for desktops 2 or 3 years ago. Laptops will always be behind on gaming technology and even if you buy a brand new $ 4,000 laptop today.... you will probably run in the same problem 2 years from now when all games start using DirextX 10, and (name fancy new tech here) and (name more fancy new tech here), etc.

I hate to tell you this, but the next time you buy a laptop don't let the sales guy convince you "sure it can play games", because although it will run MOST of the games for the next 2 years, eventually you are going to hit a brick wall again and as said you can't upgrade a laptop videocard with a new model.

No, my laptop doesn't run it either which means I will have to stick to Civ 3 when I am on the road. Tough luck for me, tough luck for mobile users in general.

 

[Elrad2]

"Laptops were not designed for 3D gaming"

This may be true, but does that mean you are saying Civ4 was not designed for Labtop users? I thought their main audience was the slightly more inteligent, less "quick action, flashy lights" driven and probobly older individual.

When you buy a labtop, you dont have any illusions about being able to Play Doom3 or not, but when it comes to a Turn-Based Strategy game??? comeon...

"Wait sir, this laptop doesn't have T&L and therefore I cant play my favorite slow paced-turn based strategy game civ4. Let me spend more money..."

Whats next, Microsoft Word 2006 requiring a 3rd Graphics card with T&L so that stupid paperclip can be rendered properly? (otherwise it crashes). Comeon...

I think a game like civ4 should support "all" systems within a reasonable age (2-3 years). Thats alwayes been true for the older civs. If Civ5 requires you to stick a usb up your ass...then you guys can "Get with the times" ill go do something else.

-Elrad

 

[Willem]

This may be true, but does that mean you are saying Civ4 was not designed for Labtop users? I thought their main audience was the slightly more inteligent, less "quick action, flashy lights" driven and probobly older individual.

It may very well, provided they have the right type of video card in their machine.

When you buy a labtop, you dont have any illusions about being able to Play Doom3 or not, but when it comes to a Turn-Based Strategy game??? comeon...

Hardware T&L is not that demanding, it's been around for years now. And like it or not, it's going to be used more and more in games as the industry switches over to 3D. Civ 4 is just the tip of the iceberg. There are laptops out there that will run it, it's not an impossible thing. It's just that older machines may possibly be out of luck.

I think a game like civ4 should support "all" systems within a reasonable age (2-3 years). Thats alwayes been true for the older civs. If Civ5 requires you to stick a usb up your ass...then you guys can "Get with the times" ill go do something else.

The technology that Civ 4 is using is at least 5 years old and virtually every desktop video card that's been sold since 2000 supports it. The only exception is systems that use the crappy integrated video cards that are built into the motherboard. Why is that everyone is complaining about Firaxis, and saying squat about the manufacturers of those cards? They're the ones that are ultimately responsible, not Firaxis.

 

[Subtestube]

Hardware T&L is not that demanding, it's been around for years now. And like it or not, it's going to be used more and more in games as the industry switches over to 3D. Civ 4 is just the tip of the iceberg. There are laptops out there that will run it, it's not an impossible thing. It's just that older machines may possibly be out of luck.

While I actually pretty much agree with you on this point, it's worth noting that the rest of the industry already HAS switched to 3-D (honestly - I challenge anyone to name a high-budget 2D title produced recently. I'm not saying 2D is bad, I'm just saying that the industry has for the most part abandoned it), and most games still support software T&L even at the high end.

 

[Willem]

...and most games still support software T&L even at the high end.

For now. Just think of Civ 4 as being a trend setter. More and more titles are going to drop the software emulation in favour of better game performance. The writing is on the wall as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Citizen Philip]

While I actually pretty much agree with you on this point, it's worth noting that the rest of the industry already HAS switched to 3-D (honestly - I challenge anyone to name a high-budget 2D title produced recently. I'm not saying 2D is bad, I'm just saying that the industry has for the most part abandoned it), and most games still support software T&L even at the high end.

Most gaming assets are created using 3D animation software, the software is very friendly and easy to export/port to gaming engines: game programming aplications are written to taken advantage of the easy use of animation software, not using 3D software means spending more money to get less.

Software T&L is very CPU intensive, which is why in more recent applications it is being abandonded completely: if you don't have the hardware to run T&L you are not going to have the processing bandwidth to do software T&L calculations.

 

[joesf35]

The technology that Civ 4 is using is at least 5 years old and virtually every desktop video card that's been sold since 2000 supports it. The only exception is systems that use the crappy integrated video cards that are built into the motherboard. Why is that everyone is complaining about Firaxis, and saying squat about the manufacturers of those cards? They're the ones that are ultimately responsible, not Firaxis.

Good for that technology, but at least a million laptops that have been purchased in the last 3 years do not have that technology.

Nearly everyone I see around me in the college of engineering at my University uses a Dell 5100, so they are all screwed if the want to play this game.

How I see it is that if you are in your 4th or 5th year at a college, where you need a laptop, then you probably bought a laptop 2-4 years ago and you are screwed. Or if you have been out of school for about 3 years and were issued, or made to purchase, a laptop computer at your work....you are screwed.

I just hope they come out with a fix now to spite your naysaying self.

 

[civmod19]

Most gaming assets are created using 3D animation software, the software is very friendly and easy to export/port to gaming engines: game programming aplications are written to taken advantage of the easy use of animation software, not using 3D software means spending more money to get less.

Software T&L is very CPU intensive, which is why in more recent applications it is being abandonded completely: if you don't have the hardware to run T&L you are not going to have the processing bandwidth to do software T&L calculations.

Can you explain to me what is the main difference between software T&L and hardware T&L?

 

[Subtestube]

Can you explain to me what is the main difference between software T&L and hardware T&L?

I should say that Citizen Philip is right - his reply to my post was something that I agreed with wholeheartedly - my own post was merely to clarify what I perceive as the dominant movement in the industry at the moment.

Software T&L simply means that instead of calculating transform and lighting on the GPU (Graphics processing unit - like, a GeForce or a Radeon for example), it's calculated on the CPU. All Transform and Lighting is is the process of taking a set of polygons in 'worldspace', and translating them into screen space coordinates, along with giving them proper lighting with regards to lights 'in the world'. Basically, it makes 3D polygon data viewable on a 2 dimensional surface, like the monitor of your computer, and gives it 'proper' lighting. Citizen Philip is correct in noting that this an intensive operation on the CPU, especially when polygon counts are high, where most GPUs can perform it very rapidly.

 

[Citizen Philip]

Good for that technology, but at least a million laptops that have been purchased in the last 3 years do not have that technology.

Nearly everyone I see around me in the college of engineering at my University uses a Dell 5100, so they are all screwed if the want to play this game.

How I see it is that if you are in your 4th or 5th year at a college, where you need a laptop, then you probably bought a laptop 2-4 years ago and you are screwed. Or if you have been out of school for about 3 years and were issued, or made to purchase, a laptop computer at your work....you are screwed.

I just hope they come out with a fix now to spite your naysaying self.

You need a paper and pen for class, but if you want to think everyone needs a computer while you sit in a seat to write stuff down, that's cool. Start a job, where you need to buy your computer? Where on earth do you work?

Please just deal with your situation. It sucks. Blame the manufacturers for even giving you a pretense of game functionalty, not being aware of this situation is not the problem of Firaxis or anyone posting here. Consider it a lesson learned.

The game has requirements, if work is being done to fix problems, they are going to start with those system it's suppose to work on, not thoses that couldn't do it in the first place.

Laptops are not made for gaming.

 

[deflp4]

I am having this same problem but i do not know how to check what type of video card that i have.. How do i check and if turns out that i have a valid video card what should i do?

Thanks for the help i just go the game about 20 mins ago and i really want to play...thanks again