Finally, Marines are useful!

[Windrake]

I edited my marines to make them alot more powerful than normal infantry, which is alot more realistic seeing that they are special forces.


__________________
-=DeathwisH=-


Actually, marines are not special forces. At least not in the manner you seem to imply. Marines are no more powerful in most cases than light infantry. And less powerful in most cases since light infantry carry heavier weapons (such as Dragon, TOW and mortar). Mechanized infantry on the other hand are MUCH more powerful than marines. The added fire-support of the Bushmaster on the Bradley is a great advantage.

Marines are used in special scenarios. Such as cracking a beach head...read as amphibious assault. I think they are very well modeled in Civ3.

BTW do you know why marines are put on naval vessels? So the squids have someone to dance with...

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by bbaws
I've used longbowmen to kill samurai, but they needed tenderizing with catapults before they were edible.

Yeah, longbowmen can kill Samurai, but normal archers can't

 

[bbaws]

Got to agree 100% with windrake. Marines have a mission. They are trained to exeute that mission at whatever cost. They are superbly well modelled in civ3. But if you are going to use them you should realize the reality the model represents. In civ2 they were way way too powerful which didn't give the marines in the real world the credit they deserve.
Ditto paratroopers. They are trained to a mission. It is a shameful waste to use tjem wrongly. If you use these units wrongly the consequence is war weariness as the women wail in the streets.

 

[bbaws]

There are plenty threads that show the difference between the modders' take on reality and the more realistic perception.

 

[gugalpm]

My recipe for invasion on continents is:
2 transports of marines
4 transports of modern armor
6 battleships
2 carriers of bombers
I charge only one city and unload my modern armor to wreak havoc in that city... the airport strategy is old... from the days of civ2...

 

[Evincar]

Who said marines kept WW low??? man, marinesmake WW raise like a rocket!! when you lose 4 of them to each mech, WW eats you!!

Still, they make a good job againts weak defenses, OK Vs normal inf. However, Amphibious assault is one of the last 3rd age techs and computers are the first one in the Modern for obvious reasons

 

[Hades]

Originally posted by gugalpm
My recipe for invasion on continents is:
2 transports of marines
4 transports of modern armor
6 battleships
2 carriers of bombers
I charge only one city and unload my modern armor to wreak havoc in that city... the airport strategy is old... from the days of civ2...

Don't you need a few MI to defend the newly captured cities? When I plan for a continental invasion, I go for 4 MI armies 4 MA armies on 8 transports and the rest of the spaces are filled with MAs.

 

[hbdragon88]

Originally posted by Evincar
but is a civ is really far behind in tech you don't need marines!! :rolleye: you just take your MA SoD and begin trampling infantry and riflemen!! plus, you get dozens of elites and probably some GL!

I didn't have MAs! Nobody did! So Marines were useful then. The Chinese were one of the leaders in reseraching tech and all they had were Bombers! They had Tanks, yes, but I had signed an alliance with them.

So with all this blab that Marines can't kill MAs and MIs, what is the best combination to kill MIs and MAs? I am curious because I want to take out the French but they have 160 MIs and I only have 27 MIs and 28 MAs.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by hbdragon88


I didn't have MAs! Nobody did! So Marines were useful then. The Chinese were one of the leaders in reseraching tech and all they had were Bombers! They had Tanks, yes, but I had signed an alliance with them.

So with all this blab that Marines can't kill MAs and MIs, what is the best combination to kill MIs and MAs? I am curious because I want to take out the French but they have 160 MIs and I only have 27 MIs and 28 MAs.

When combined with bombardment, Marines are sufficient for attacking Infantry, but not the more modern units. You need lots of Armor to take out Mechanized Infantry; plus, if you can handle the tactical detail, Bombers and Artillery. If you don't have air superiority, then Stealth Bombers.

Here is an example against French Mechanized Infantry, using Armor and Stealth Bombers.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm8/ad1852-France.htm

 

[Hades]

I wouldn't touch any civ with MI if I don't have MA. I like wars but I do that with self preservation in mind. Just build tons of tanks and armies for now and upgrade them as soon as you can.

 

[hbdragon88]

Originally posted by Zachriel


When combined with bombardment, Marines are sufficient for attacking Infantry, but not the more modern units. You need lots of Armor to take out Mechanized Infantry; plus, if you can handle the tactical detail, Bombers and Artillery. If you don't have air superiority, then Stealth Bombers.

Here is an example against French Mechanized Infantry, using Armor and Stealth Bombers.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm8/ad1852-France.htm

Nice except it's not so cozy for me. The French were responsible for overruning the Germans, the Romans, and the Egyptians. Using their bombers they effectively took five cities in a less than 10 years. It is scary. Size does matter...

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by hbdragon88


Nice except it's not so cozy for me. The French were responsible for overruning the Germans, the Romans, and the Egyptians. Using their bombers they effectively took five cities in a less than 10 years. It is scary. Size does matter...

Sounds like a great game (if you can survive!), though it's always tough to be on the defensive. Maybe massive bombardment of their invading forces. Knock them down to one hitpoint then finish them off with mobile units.

 

[kilarb]

I think that one of the problems with the analysis on this thread so far is that marines have been analyzed out of period. “Marines”, and for that matter “paratroopers” are designed to be specific “mods” to the period “infantry”. Marines are expensive infantry that can attack directly off of boats. Paratroops are expensive infantry that are able to airdrop behind enemy lines. Infantry represents the typical ground troops of WWI/WWII. Marines and paratroops are specialists that weren’t really distinguishable from infantry until WWII.

Cost Comparison Table (sorry if the alignment is bad).

Unit - Offense – Defense – Cost – Movement
Inf --- 6 ---------10------------90---------1
Mar---8----------6------------100---------1
Para---6----------8------------100---------1
Tank—16--------8------------100---------2


Compared to Mech. Infantry 12----18----110-----2, none of these units will do a stellar job… In fact none of them is worth a damn thing. What you don’t see here are the modern upgrades to these units.

One annoying aspect of these units however is that they build late in the Industrial Age using non-mandatory tech advances. The result is that it is feasible, and in fact quite likely that you will neglect to research these until long after you can build mech. infantry. I suspect this was overlooked by Firaxis. So while these units CAN and SHOULD be built to supplement your period infantry, they are generally ignored until they are helpless.

In real life, paratroops and marines receive different training and equipment today than they did in the 1940s… or at least they do for those nations that bother to build them. These types of specialist units are only built by nations that have “enough” regular units and feel the need for more specialized units with these capabilities. The USA, The UK, Russia (maybe), China, India, France, etc build units like these. Angola, Columbia, Albania, etc. don’t build units of this type of unit, mainly because they cant afford them, and couldn’t really use them anyhow. In any case, this means that it would not be inappropriate to have a modern version of these to supplement MA and MI.

-continued-

 

[kilarb]

UPDATED UNIT SUGGESTIONS

-

WWII Era marines have been replaced, in modern times, with the Marine Expeditionary Unit. This unit should become available at the same time as mech. Infantry using the standard tech tree, but would require that the Amphibious Warfare tech from the Industrial Age be researched as well.

Anyone that looks at the TO&E of a MEU will realize that it is designed to meet real threats on the modern battle fields… which is to say that it can contain light armored units, motorized transport, air cavalry, and even tanks. This is not to say that its armored punch is powerful compared to MA, but rather that it is capable of effective operations in the face of MI and MA.

The big drawback to the MEU is that because it is designed to be carried shipboard in a confined space, it does not include as large a logistical “tail” as most modern units. The result is that while a MEU can maneuver on the tactical battlefield with speed comparable to other modern units, it cannot refuel and rearm as easily and so must be content to move more slowly on the strategic field… or to move by ship.

Marine upgrades to MEU

Offense – 13
Defense – 16
Movement – 1
Cost – 120

-

Paratroops cannot be built until all industrial techs (for advancement) have been researched. In short, you cant ACTUALLY build them until the modern age. By the time you have them you usually have mech. Infantry. Firaxis made a technical mistake by having them arrive with helicopters rather than with bombers. The result is that, technologically, they more closely resemble MODERN paratroops that use helos.

We COULD attach paratroops to “Flight” to resolve this problem… or we could modify the existing paratroop to reflect the period and technology currently involved.

Firaxis also made a technical mistake by allowing the airlift of armor, MA, and mech. infantry. By fixing this (removing the airlift ability from any mechanized unit), we create a critical need for the unit we are about to create.

Modern Light Infantry (or MLI) replaces the paratrooper (but uses the animations and icons for simplicity). MLI contains the paratrooper’s airdrop ability and is the best unit available that can use the “Airlift” function.

MLI goes into battle with only the equipment its personnel can carry… of course in the modern age this includes anti-tank weaponry, SAMS (stingers), mortars, etc. On the ground they are slow moving, and incapable of mounting effective offensive operations. They are however excellent defenders for their cost.

Infantry now upgrade to MLI
Cavalry now upgrade to Mech. Infantry (if you have any left)

Offense – 7
Defense - 14
Movement – 1
Cost - 95

Comments are of course welcome… and if anyone wants to make an animation for a MEU (or recommend an existing one) I’d greatly appreciate it.

Regards,
bmk

 

[bbaws]

Alternately, if you aren't in the mood for modding. MI don't stand up too well to cruise missiles, provided you are prepared to fire a lot of them.

 

[Portuguese]

Marines are great to capture 1-tile islands.

Give it a try do it without marines...

 

[bbaws]

I am glad that marines are pretty useful (thought they were pretty good in Civ2). Just realized I haven't used them in a good few games. I reckon it's a lot less hassle just to plonk down a settler in enemy territory with a bunch of good defensive units.

 

[hbdragon88]

For all the talk against Marines, I guess that Firaxis incorperated them like how they do in real life. Marines get little publicity and do not do any huge things - I have not heard of Marines taking over cities and such. What a strange coincidence or what?

 

[TheDS]

Kilarb: I like your ideas! I was considering making it necesary to build a Courthouse and Factory before an airport could be built. Your idea of deflagging the modern units' airlift flags will not only make continental invasions more difficult and give a use to paratroopers, it will also make having a strong navy more important so you can safely move armor from your continent to the new one. No more sending the BBs and DDs off to provide bombardment support to make them feel useful. Now they must stay near the transports/convoys and make sure they get across safely.

Of course, I think I'll still keep the earlier units airliftable. Stuff like Infantry and the like, and artillery and radartillery could still perhaps be airliftable. And I think I will still make the airport a little harder to build. You do need a lot of people to support an airport; these aren't dirt strips we're talking about here.


Windrake: "BTW do you know why marines are put on naval vessels? So the squids have someone to dance with..."

As a squid myself, stationed on a gator-freighter, I laughed my head off! I thought they were just there to get in our way and standin our chow lines.

For the rest of you who think modern Marines are a pushover, they have the same M1A1 Abrams MBTs that the Army has. The hovercraft can fly one of them in at 100 mph (so they say) and drop them on the beach and be back in a hurry. The helos bring the ground pounders over while the hovercraft are bringing the vehicles over. (Some get flown over too.)

There's Harriers (jump jets) and AH-1 Cobras in the air for ground support, and a carrier nearby to acquire and hold air superiority.

The modern MEU can really kick butt. And nowadays, they even try to land unopposed, to minimize losses! No more of that 19-out-of-20 casualty rate (seriously).

I envy their ability to not have to do anything, but I sure wouldn't wanna be with them when they're hitting the beach for real. Takes a lot of guts to do that.

 

[redhulkz]

Qn : can building coastal fortress increase defence against Marines attacking from sea ?