Firaxis and the Gross Misrepresentation of Non-Western History?

[SickCycle]

Washington might sell minesweepers to Taiwan

BIRDS IN THE HAND: The US Senate Foreign Relations Committee has approved the sale of the `Oriole' and `Falcon' to Taipei, along with some ships for other allies

By Charles Snyder
STAFF REPORTER IN WASHINGTON
Friday, Aug 04, 2006
link

At the request of the Pentagon, the US Senate has taken up a bill to allow the Bush administration to sell Taiwan two ships to augment its aging minesweeping fleet.

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Tuesday approved and sent on to the full Senate a bill to authorize the sale of two Osprey-class minesweepers, the Oriole and the Falcon.

While the cost of the ships to be offered to Taiwan was not enumerated, the US Navy estimated that the bill, which would also include the sale of one minesweeper to Turkey and two amphibious dock ships to Mexico, would net US$84.5 million.

In letters to House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Vice President Dick Cheney in May requesting that the sales be included in legislation, the Pentagon said the sales "would improve the United States' political and military relationships with close allies. They would support strategic engagement goals and regional security cooperation objectives."

The two vessels are among 12 Osprey-class minesweepers built between 1993 and 1999, and which are now being phased out by the US Navy. They are the world's largest glass-reinforced, plastic-hulled ships and the first US ships designed solely for minehunting. They are being replaced by multi-task vessels.

Most US military analysts, including those in the Pentagon, expect that any Chinese military actions against Taiwan would involve mining the Taiwan Strait.

In an attack or invasion attempt, mines would help keep US forces at bay, preventing them from effectively coming to Taiwan's aid. In a blockade, they would be used to prevent shipping from supplying Taiwan with goods.

China's arsenal includes more than 10,000 mines, according to defense expert Richard Fisher, a vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

As a result, Fisher wonders how effective the two new vessels would be in the event of a full-fledged Chinese mining operation.

Nevertheless, Fisher applauded the move to sell the ships to Taiwan in view of the potential Chinese military threat and the poor state of Taiwan's existing anti-mine capabilities.

Under the Senate bill, Taiwan would have two years after the bill were enacted into law to purchase the vessels, at which time the authorization would expire.

Taiwan would have to pay all of the costs involved in refitting the ships and bringing them to combat-readiness. All such work would have to be done in US shipyards.

The sale requires specific legislative action, the Pentagon said, because the vessels are less than 20 years old.

 

[SickCycle]

Taiwan holds live war-game, simulates Chinese invasion

AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Fri, 21 Jul 2006
link

Taiwan held its largest live-fire military exercise in years on July 20, testing fighter jets, U.S.-made Patriot missiles and ground troops against a simulated invasion by arch foe China.

Two anti-missile Patriots streaked towards the sky from mobile launchers on a beach off the northeastern city of Ilan during a drill codenamed “Han Kuang 22”. They destroyed a target missile launched some 30 kilometers (18 miles) away.

”This is the first time Patriot missiles were launched before the eyes of the public...to show our determination to safeguard Taiwan,” President Chen Shui-bian told hundreds of guests and reporters.

Chen earlier this week again warned about China’s growing military threat, saying it is now targeting 820 missiles at Taiwan.

The People’s Liberation Army has deployed 784 ballistic and 36 cruise missiles aimed at the island, he said, adding that the number was rising at the rate of 120 per year.

These could paralyze Taiwan’s communications and transportation and command centers in a 10-hour bombardment, the defense ministry says.

Military authorities have been seeking to acquire more Patriot missiles, part of a proposed 10-billion-dollar package of U.S. arms, to counter the Chinese missiles. Opposition parties have blocked the purchase.

Thursday’s war game simulated an attempt by the People’s Liberation Army to attack and land on Taiwan’s northeast. Nearly all the sophisticated weaponry in Taiwan’s military inventory was deployed along with more than 13,000 soldiers.

Several squadrons of F-16 fighter jets and SuperCobra combat helicopters scrambled from nearby bases to fire air-to-air missiles and Hellfire rockets to wipe out targets in the air and on the sea.

The army also showcased its capability against airborne invaders when hundreds of paratroopers simulating Chinese soldiers were dropped on Ilan city, where a mock street battle broke out.

The simulated invaders eventually surrendered after they were surrounded by a fleet of some 20 armored vehicles flanked by defense units.

Chen has pledged gradually to increase military spending to around three percent of gross domestic product, up from 2.5 percent currently.

A Pentagon report last year estimated that China’s defense spending was two to three times the publicly announced figure and that the cross-strait military balance was tipping in Beijing’s favor.

China has repeatedly threatened to invade self-governing Taiwan should the island declare formal independence. It has regarded Taiwan as part of its territory since they split in 1949 at the end of a civil war.

Tensions between Taiwan and China have escalated since the independence-leaning Chen was elected president in 2000. He was narrowly re-elected in 2004.

 

[Tee Kay]

Two problems with this scenario:

1. Taiwan can never declare its independence, that is if it doesn't want World War III and
2. Economic bonds between Chinese and Taiwanese are strong and growing.

 

[Roxlimn]

SickCycle:

You believe opinion in a news article written by an individual to be god-given fact? Moreover, you believe these things which appear nothing more than noise and propaganda?

Selling arms and armaments to Taiwan is one thing, but the US telling it not to declare independence and not officially acknowledging its status as a state is something else.

I hear nothing from Beijing that tells me that it actually wants to invade Taiwan. Sure, it is beefing up its military, but that's a general buildup. These weapons could just as well be to defend itself from Japan. I don't see the US engaging in yet another war with a major nation over a small island when its economy and manpower are already tied elsewhere. You'll notice that most sources who will tell you that Beijing wants to take over Taiwan are either Taiwanese or American, both of which usually have vested interests in saying that.

Of course, Beijing also has vested interests in denying such allegations, but in cases like this, I follow the money. It's unprofitable for Bejing to invade Taiwan, so it would be mad for them to make such a move at this time, barring any provocative acts from Taiwan.

Is the US really that dedicated to maintaining a political situation over a small island that far from its shores? Sell arms, yes. Declare war, no. Notice that the US is actually selling f-16s, not f-22s nor f-15s. This seems to be nothing more than an attempt to preserve balance in the region, rather than military aggression, or a commitment to preserve Taiwan as an independent state.

 

[SickCycle]

The United States and China have both awknowledged that the U.S. would interveen if China were to retake the island of Taiwan by force, why? Because it's in the best interest of the United States for that island to remain against china, Militarily.

The only reason China has never attempted to retake Taiwan by force up until now is because it knows the U.S. would interveen and at the very least supply/loan/support there would be definite black operations and tactical and strategic support.

All those articles were taken off the Military.Com forums posted by members of the Military discussing the situation, people that know and understand better then us, granted they were not written by those individuals, I just pulled the articles off of the site because it has many, many, many articles posted discussing real life events like American/Chinese/Taiwan relations.

The United States wont sell the F-22 Raptor to anyone it's considered a Military Secret or something along those lines "National Security" not sure how they word it but Japan and the Aussies both have tried to purchase the new F-22 Raptor and it was shot down by the Pentagon and Congress. The F-22 Raptor is a marvel, there is nothing in the sky that can touch it as long as they don't have a way to detect it on radar, its like a stealth bomber only a fighter/support/electronic warfare aircraft. It's insane, it's current record in simulated dog fights with other American Fighters is something like 120-0.

 

[Roxlimn]

SickCycle:

1. Even if it's in the best interests of the US to maintain a military presence in Taiwan, I don't believe it will do so through open warfare. If its presence and influence becomes impossible to deny, it's possible that China will also institute non-obvious means of attack, economic not being the least of these.

In a case of a superpower struggle over Taiwan, I'm not really sure that many nations would side with the US, particularly when it hasn't been diplomatically acknowledging Taiwan for all these years. A stronger US military in the area almost necessarily means a stronger Japan militarily, and that kind of flavor would almost certainly turn everyone not in the US's pockets in the region against the US more than they already are.

You want the US to alienate even MORE of the world? Supporting a stronger and militarized Japan would do it.

In that sense, it may very well be counter-productive militarily to defend Taiwan.

2. You can't know why China isn't taking Taiwan because you don't know the situation. The fact that you're taking your cues from the US military isn't a source of confidence, considering that they're the same ones who precipitated this invasion of Iraq. That's even giving them the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't trust anything those guys say in any way, shape, or form. In fact, I don't trust anything anybody says. I look for motive, and in this case, with resources being stretched as far as they are, I don't think those military sources are doing anything other than spreading dubious information to their own benefit.

3. If the US won't sell the Raptor, then wouldn't you say that that's a pretty solid clue that it's NOT giving out its all in defending Taiwan? Personally, I think it would be a huge mistake for the US to get involved in anything like that. I said it about Iraq, and guess what? Now I'm saying it about Taiwan, and I have a lot more confidence in what independent cues I gather than in the opinions of people who have vested interests in controlling how I think.

 

[SickCycle]

The U.S. doesn't support Taiwan becoming independent because it would cause that very conflict were talking about, China has stated it will not invade "even though it continues to aim it's military towards that goal" aslong as it doesn't declare official independence, the United States is simply keeping it stable since it doesn't want that conflict but at the same time they don't want Taiwan to rejoin china.

You mention the Iraq invasion but it's clear that you don't understand what was going on in the world at the time nor do you understand the causes, or why most of the world is upset about the United States taking Iraq, immediately after the invasion do you know what happened? The United States took control of all oil wells and kicked out all foreign companies.. I know a few were French and German not sure about the others and what did they do? They awarded all oil contracts to U.S. companies and a few to Great Britain. You know how much money was lost to the companies/economies of France or Germany or any country that had it's companies removed?

You know they're currently in the process of building a magic pipeline through afghan, you know they're currently building a U.S. embassy in Iraq larger then the Vatican? You know they have constructed 13 Permanent Military Bases in Iraq/Afghan.. for the so called "temporary" surge there?

Do you understand that a year before we attacked Saddam, he had switched his oil to only deal in the Euro? Do you understand that Iran is in the process of building it's own oil exchange to deal only in the Euro, do you understand that now the U.S. is saying they want to invade Iran? Do you see the connection? Did you even know all oil currencies in the world must be done in the dollar?

Do you have any knowledge of the PetroDollar Recycling system? or how all that ties into it?

How by switching to the Euro could in "theory" crash the U.S. economy? How by simple switching oil deals into the Euro is actually an attack on the United States, a potentially severe and devastating blow?

Why is it that right after the invasion of Iraq and they took the oil wells they switched the oil currency back into the U.S. dollar even though it resulted in a 33% drop in there economy, while they're supposedly trying to rebuild the country and support economic growth?

Why is it after the attack on the U.S. the united states had detailed military invasion plans for Iraq? Why did they cherry pick flimsy evidence to support there claims knowing it wasnt 100% supported by the intelligence community and last of all why did the united states basically abandon afghan as soon as they got there invasion into Iraq?

I got a friend over there right now and he says going to Iraq is no big deal, hes comfortable being stationed in Baghdad but hes terrified of being in Afghanistan? Yet the U.S. maintains almost no troops there in comparison?

What is Afghanistan missing that Iraq/Iran have and why are they talking about sending troops into pakistan now? What is Iran threatening/planning to do with how it handles its oil deals that saddam did before the invasion"?

Do some research come back when your ready.

No Country in the entire world gives away it's top military technologies, period. In civ4 do you give out your newly discovered top of the line military techs to the rest of the world knowing your going to lose that edge that puts you ahead of the pack and untouchable? No.

Come on..

Your comment on Japan was all I needed to totally and utterly discredit any opinions you have supported on this forum, Japan is one of Americas strongest and nearest allies in todays world, I also find it hilarious you mention Japan changing it's constitution to allow a broader military objective since that is "EXACTLY" what is in the process of being done right now with the support of the United States of America.

Heres a short article, you could find much better if you did some of this research for yourself.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/1566734.stm

What is so bad about Japan having a Offensive military? You seem completely detached from world events and the current political environment, the United States wants Japan to take a more aggressive stance "even though it's people don't" because the United States is stretched so thin and cant guard the entire world sphere.

Japan is one of the few people that support the United States today, through thick and thin, even if we don't always agree, another would be the Aussies and Great Britain.

Besides for those three, I wouldn't call anyone a true ally.

 

[Roxlimn]

SickCycle:

Your comment on Japan was all I needed to totally and utterly discredit any opinions you have supported on this forum, Japan is one of Americas strongest and nearest allies in todays world, I also find it hilarious you mention Japan changing it's constitution to allow a broader military objective since that is "EXACTLY" what is in the process of being done right now with the support of the United States of America.

Uh... ...exactly what did I say that makes you think that I didn't think that Japan is America's dog? Yes, it's changing it's constitution. That's not exactly news anymore. It's been talked about for a while now.

Did you NOT understand what I said?

What I said that was the US backing a stronger and more militarized Japan is creating tension within the region, and if the US did something as blatant as selling Japan Raptors, it could create outright enemies.

You'll note that as I said few countries in East and Southeast Asia are comfortable with Japan's increasing militarization. We saw what the US did to Iraq. We know what Japan has done in the past. We're not stupid. We can do without Japan's "protection," thank you very much.

You might be under the mistaken impression that I'm American. I'm not.

 

[gettingfat]

Believing mainland China right now will start a major war without being pushed to the limit is like thinking a builder will DoW when he is going for liberalism race.

If I have to pick one impression of PRC on American in general that is laughable it is that they are militaristically trigger-happy. Since Deng the PRC leaders have been quite pragmatic. The new generation of PRC leaders are particularly so. Unless those Taiwanese are dumb enough to allow their Oscar-winning president Chen to overtly say "we are now independent" everything will be just smoke without fire.

US also can't afford a major war as well, especially vs China, who can simply dump their reserve of US dollars and bonds to get the US in deep shxt. This is no Warlords, aggressive AI, guys.

Every Asian except Japanese themselves and Taiwanese is afraid of an empowered Japan, and deservedly so, no matter how much "we are peace-loving nuke victims" hard-selling they have done.

 

[SickCycle]

No sir, I can tell your not an American like me, you actually buy into all the propaganda bullwork that is thrown around not only by the American government but in much greater bulk by the rest of the world, and in depth when regarding the United States especially.

The difference is we don't believe it.

The United States will create enemies by supporting a more militarized japan.. your absolutely correct but you ignore one simple fact. The world is already split up, the lines are drawn, the allies and enemies are decided.

Americas allies do not have any problem with supporting a stronger role for japan, Americas enemies do.

Please explain to me why the United States should care if China, N. Korea, or the Vietnamese, even Russia or any other country that is "ALREADY" hostile to the United States gets upset that we are strengthening our allies to defend themselves, our allies, and us from them?

We don't protect our enemies and we don't much care if our enemies are upset with us, that's what makes them enemies in the first place.

 

[SickCycle]

Believing mainland China right now will start a major war without being pushed to the limit is like thinking a builder will DoW when he is going for liberalism race.

If I have to pick one impression of PRC on American in general that is laughable it is that they are militaristically trigger-happy. Since Deng the PRC leaders have been quite pragmatic. The new generation of PRC leaders are particularly so. Unless those Taiwanese are dumb enough to allow their Oscar-winning president Chen to overtly say "we are now independent" everything will be just smoke without fire.

US also can't afford a major war as well, especially vs China, who can simply dump their reserve of US dollars and bondings to get the US in deep shxt. This is no Warlords, aggressive AI, guys.

Every Asian except Japanese themselves and Taiwanese are afraid of an empowered Japan, and deservedly so, no matter how much "we are peace-loving nuke victims" hard-selling they have done.

You are absolutely correct on every aspect but the fact that China is constantly improving it's military aiming it at the island cannot be overlooked. If the United States wasn't in the picture with Taiwans current military level, I have no doubt they would of taken it back by force.

Your comment about China being in a position to economicly destroy the U.S. is interesting because it's accurate they have been putting themselves into a position to do this, and you can look at it two ways, an act of aggression, or an act of self preservation.

I find the Chinese people to be extremely intelligent, and there are various things circulating the internet about covert hostilities a secret silent warfare being waged by the chinese. There was a Silent Warfare Manual that was recovered in a chinese Military compound by American Intelligence stating this exact objective and how it was to be carried out.

It details using electronic warfare, computer attacks, virus's and the like to attack the United States and cripple it should the need arise.

If I can find the article on this Military Forum I'll post it.

I'm an American and my friends are Americans an I'd like to say that none of us see China as trigger happy, most of us have a sort of quiet respect for the land, it's the government the United States doesn't like.

Why, well that is a matter of opinion and could be debated.

We do however see China as crafty, underhanded, and discreet, they prefer silence before the strike.

I've read Sun-Tzus art of war so have my friends and I believe that book depicts chinese tactics and warfare very accurately, a main focus in it is the art of mis direction, showing one thing and doing another, keeping your enemy off balance and un aware/un prepaired.

MisInformation, Counter-Intelligence, Diplomacy.

Very little of it I found to be actually about warfare and more about trickery.

A worthy advisary indeed, all my American friends Respect the Chinese.

 

[snipafist]

No sir, I can tell your not an American like me, you actually buy into all the propaganda bullwork that is thrown around not only by the American government but in much greater bulk by the rest of the world, and in depth when regarding the United States especially.

The difference is we don't believe it.

The United States will create enemies by supporting a more militarized japan.. your absolutely correct but you ignore one simple fact. The world is already split up, the lines are drawn, the allies and enemies are decided.

Americas allies do not have any problem with supporting a stronger role for japan, Americas enemies do.

Please explain to me why the United States should care if China, N. Korea, or the Vietnamese, even Russia or any other country that is "ALREADY" hostile to the United States gets upset that we are strengthening our allies to defend themselves, our allies, and us from them?

We don't protect our enemies and we don't much care if our enemies are upset with us, that's what makes them enemies in the first place.

I disagree. Japan, due to America's military presence within it, has been allowed to antagonize the rest of Asia for decades. Visiting the Yasakuni Shrine, denying the existence of sexual slavery during World War 2, denying the Rape of Nanking, it's just horrible. Without US troops in Japan (hence, any attack or saber-rattling towards the Japanese involves the US), the Japanese would have to seriously consider the possibility that their blatantly idiotic self-congratulatory delusions about World War 2 are really pissing off all of their neighbors. This isn't good diplomacy. Not at all. Compared to the groveling self-deprecation and guilt of post WW2 Germany, which has tried to atone as best it can for WW2, Japan looks even worse.

What you, and many of US diplomats, seem to misunderstand is that diplomacy isn't all about power blocks. Most diplomacy is a give-and-take, and few countries exist in a relationship as strained as India and Pakistan, for instance. It's actually a strong testament to the instability of the modern world (and the US's generally bi-polar behavior) that EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY has a plan of what to do if attacked by the US. This isn't surprising at all. I'd be amazed if Britain didn't have a plan. Israel has a plan, and the US and Israel are practically bedfellows. China has a great potential to be a crucial US ally. While you may be used to a Cold-War-esque two-sided power struggle for TOTAL WORLD DOMINANCE, the Chinese don't really think that way. Their economy is quite integrated with the US economy, and so it's in their interests to ensure that if the US goes after them, they can collapse our economy just as well as we could collapse theirs (through a trade embargo). If anything, I think the PRC would appreciate even closer US-China ties. The problem is that the US keeps supporting incredibly belligerent countries (Japan, Israel) that everyone around them loves to hate. There's nothing wrong with supporting traditional allies, but 100% support for them no matter what they say or do just rubs everybody the wrong way.

Oh, and I'm an American. Proud of it too, even if I'm not terribly proud of my country's foreign policy or the executive branch that sets it that way.

 

[SickCycle]

All good points..

However, do you expect the United States to turn away from Japan to support communist China?

Japan is tried and true, they are strategicly important, China likes to walk the line between friend and foe and in addition Japan isn't run by a authoritarian regime

I don't see how you can expect the United States to lessen ties with Japan to strengthen ties to China, when they are considered a threat by most of our government, Military, Pentagon.

I also, Highly, Highly doubt, Britain has any war plans designed against the United States or vice versa, our countries have a pact to share "All" intelligence within our intelligence agencies, that is serious trust.

You should also recognize the United States needs an enemy to maintain its superiority and at times I feel as though ones are created for that sole purpose.

I'm sure you've heard of the Military Industrial Complex. I believe I read somewhere the United States once all expenses are accounted for spends as much on "defense" as the next ten nations combined.

Truly, I'd argue the United States is the reincarnation of ancient Rome but Instead of colonizing or taking the land we erect Military bases to project force/influence/control. This has actually been topic of debate among educated people and if the United States qualifies as a current Empire, many are saying Yes.

Also.. Please remember Japan effectively guards our western coastline.

 

[snipafist]

I'm not advocating abandoning Japan, but unmitigated support for it is foolish. Same as with Israel. I'd never say abandon Israel, but some of its policies are just insane and will not lead to a sustainable Israeli-Palestinian peace. What I'm saying is that by going all-out in support of one country doesn't really improve relations with that country all that much, but it significantly annoys other countries. It's not a smart move.

Furthermore, if you don't think all countries in the world have military plans on how to defend themselves from a hypothetical US attack, you're naive at best. It's always been a good idea to have a plan on how to defend yourself from the strongest country in the world.

 

[SickCycle]

Maybe vague plans on defense sure but not invasion plans, I wouldn't argue Britain would have any emergency plans for such a scenario or at least have discussed it within the Military, I'd lean more to the discussion of it rather then actual detailed plans.

I would argue they wouldn't have any invasion plans of the U.S. or the U.S. of Britain.

I misread your post.

 

[Roxlimn]

SickCycle:

The United States will create enemies by supporting a more militarized japan.. your absolutely correct but you ignore one simple fact. The world is already split up, the lines are drawn, the allies and enemies are decided.

Americas allies do not have any problem with supporting a stronger role for japan, Americas enemies do.

Please explain to me why the United States should care if China, N. Korea, or the Vietnamese, even Russia or any other country that is "ALREADY" hostile to the United States gets upset that we are strengthening our allies to defend themselves, our allies, and us from them?

It is precisely this kind of attitude that generates such hate for the US. Enemies of the US aren't like that for no reason. It's usually because the US is doing something fairly terrible to those people.

To put it bluntly Americans don't care if most of the world gets blanketed under a nuclear winter, and indeed, some Americans think that it would serve their country best if they nuked every country that isn't currently its staunch ally. This proclivity for violence, aggression, and outright imperialism is part of what gives the US a bad name.

Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, indeed, most of the countries in East and Southeast Asia are quite rightly scared of a militarized Japan. They remember all too well the atrocities Japan did before, and the US backing it now, with its tarnished reputation, doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence that it isn't going to happen again.

What can possibly happen if the US insults a major region of the world and spits on their faces, essentially threatening to kill (and sometimes actually killing) their sons and daughters and trample on their culture and heritage?

Well, you create enemies, and enemies do things like send suicide bombers to your cities. It's ironic that most Americans simply don't see that the US is the aggressor and has been for many years. The fact that the US is willing to use horrific invasion actually strengthens the impression of heroic and desperate measures, rather than discourages it.

You are absolutely correct on every aspect but the fact that China is constantly improving it's military aiming it at the island cannot be overlooked. If the United States wasn't in the picture with Taiwans current military level, I have no doubt they would of taken it back by force.

If China were the US, I have no doubt that that would be the case. However, China is NOT the US and they simply don't think the same way. As gettingfat insinuates, Beijing is happy to get what it wants without war if it's possible. What makes you so sure that Beijing would use military invasion to take Taiwan? For my point of view, Taiwan serves Bejing best just by being a regional trade center. If Beijing invades with force, that's going down the tube, and what would be the point of a small island with few natural resources then?

Nothing. You expend millions of yuan of hard-earned money for a blasted windswept island.

 

[SickCycle]

If china was so great why would Taiwan want to break away and seperate so badly..

You should stop listening to your state run media.

Your right about one thing, the world would be better off if we just eliminated our enemies, unfortunately it wasn't done in time and now the window is gone.

Mutual assured destruction and all that.. so I guess we will just have to keep playing these little games of hide and seek, you hide, we seek.

I don't see the roles being reversed anytime and lets be honest, the United States of America can do whatever it damn well pleases.

A picture is worth a thousand words as they say..

 

[Roxlimn]

Sick Cycle:

You should stop listening to your state run media.

I live in the Philippines! The state barely runs the capital, let alone national media. Perhaps you ought to rethink your suppositions about where I get my information.

If china was so great why would Taiwan want to break away and separate so badly..

There are any number of reasons for why an island would want to break away. Heck, Okinawans don't fare quite so badly under Japanese rule, either, but they still consider themselves a separate entity. Given the chance and the right situation, I rather think that they'd want to secede as well.

If the US weren't fostering this Taiwanese tension, I rather think that China would have eventually brought Taiwan closer into Beijing's orbit. However, I don't believe that it would have done so through war. The annexation of Tibet didn't involve all that much of a war, so the only way I think China would risk it would be if it were a sure thing - a war so overwhelming the Taiwanese wouldn't bother to resist and Chinese soldiers wouldn't bother to shoot.

It's the best kind of war.

Then China would manage Taiwan much as it has managed Hong Kong. One thing is obvious - Taiwan works, and China will only want Taiwan as long as it works. If the island isn't broken, don't fix it, yeah?

You're right about one thing, the world would be better off if we just eliminated our enemies, unfortunately it wasn't done in time and now the window is gone.

I don't see the roles being reversed anytime and lets be honest, the United States of America can do whatever it damn well pleases.

If anyone has any questions about why the Civ game is the way it is and why America deservedly has such a bad name, look no further than this quote. It's these kinds of comments from Americans that gives the rest of the world the impression that American hegemony is nothing short of worldwide tyranny.

 

[SickCycle]

To put it bluntly Americans don't care if most of the world gets blanketed under a nuclear winter, and indeed, some Americans think that it would serve their country best if they nuked every country that isn't currently its staunch ally. This proclivity for violence, aggression, and outright imperialism is part of what gives the US a bad name.

I enjoyed this part especially, Violence, Aggression, Imperialism, I agree 100% it's called cleaning house. When you have an ant infestation in your home you don't let the ants breed, you exterminate them.

You gotta have priorities.

Well, you create enemies, and enemies do things like send suicide bombers to your cities. It's ironic that most Americans simply don't see that the US is the aggressor and has been for many years. The fact that the US is willing to use horrific invasion actually strengthens the impression of heroic and desperate measures, rather than discourages it.

This was great too, Heroic and Desperate Measures.. Your all to right, well about the desperate part, after looking at that graph I'm sure you understand, it's an act of futility. Collateral damage is acceptable and un-avoidable. All my American friends know all too well "EXACTLY" why these men are doing what they are doing, the catch is we don't care.. remember the ant farm?

Seriously, what are you gonna do about it? Hijack a plane, don't make me laugh. You take out a building we take out a couple countries. How long you gonna keep that one up? Makes me chuckle inside at the desperation. I almost pity them/you. I can tell your one of them by your comment of Heroic measures, which is fine, you gotta hold onto something.

Heroic would be winning, sorry to say that's beyond your grasp, keep your hope because it's all you'll ever get, the United States is a monster and your just that little ant. Not even worth our attention most of the time and when you get it...

Well we already saw how that story ends, I don't see it happening again in the near future.

But hey, some people just don't get it, who knows.. It'll give us something to do, the best part is.. and wrap your head around this one cause its a duzy..



.. It only made us stronger not only did we get to increase our Military, we also got thirteen new bases in the middle east, a embassy (CIA/Intelligence) larger then the vatican, and the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world..

I think we made out ok.. what did they get.. all that culture.. all that history.. gone.. wasn't there a city called fallujah once? I thought it was holy, o well. It's covered in this strange white dust now.. ooo it burns.

 

[Roxlimn]

As much as terrorism disgusts me, it's comments like the one above that almost makes me think that it's all perfectly justified. It's almost as if America were simply the stronger terrorist.