Firaxis: Corruption Breakdown

If Palace Jumping, as such, need be changed, how about simply moving the Palace to a random city when captial is abandoned/razed/captured? Would probably not be a perceptible change from the famed "casual player"'s PoV, and makes jumping risky and unattractive.
 
Even easier, (and I refuse to jump into hte fray on this issue all over again), why not simply disable the ability to abandon your capital city (which is unrealistic as a game feature anyway).
 
Originally posted by Yumbo
Even easier, (and I refuse to jump into hte fray on this issue all over again), why not simply disable the ability to abandon your capital city (which is unrealistic as a game feature anyway).

Perfect! I agree!
 
I didn't think you can make a worker with the last population point. You can max out the shields needed to make that worker, and continue to spend shields making the worker, but the worker won't pop out until the turn where your population increases from 1 to 2. (And thankfully, I might add. Can you imagine miscalculating the turn your pop increases, only to have your new city disbanded by the creation of a worker?)
Well, that would leave the possibility of tricking an AI into capturing it open.
Yes, true. It is a simple solution, but one that would leave some doors open for the extremely determined player.

I've argued elsewhere for other solutions to this issue (FP replaced by Palace; else, Palace relocates to next nearest city).
Arguably, the Khmer Rouge did abandon Pnom Penh ...
...while plunging their nation into pure chaos. But I've sworn off arguing for a patch for palace jumping, and I won't argue the merits. I was just offering a potential solution for those looking for a way to patch it. And, to give credit, I believe the "no abandoning your capital" idea is actually Marlor's.
 
Originally posted by Yumbo
I didn't think you can make a worker with the last population point. You can max out the shields needed to make that worker, and continue to spend shields making the worker, but the worker won't pop out until the turn where your population increases from 1 to 2. (And thankfully, I might add. Can you imagine miscalculating the turn your pop increases, only to have your new city disbanded by the creation of a worker?)

Just for clarity: The way it works now, it is possible to get rid of a city by worker/settler production.;)
City in question must have 0fpt and pop status 1 (2 when you want to disband with settler); to avoid unwanted disbanding by miscalulating or so, you get a warning pop up that you have to confirm.
 
This post is exhausting! :) Here's a new suggestions for the corruption management:

A Great Leaders stationed/fortified in a city should function as an lesser FP for as long as he stays there, and you could move him around to help problem areas. You could later use him for a wonder if you want. You can still only have one GL at at time.

12ozP
 
0 food per turn (surplus), i.e. not growing.
 
I just ran a li'l test, and indeed you need need 0fpt to abandon a city by building a Worker. Wasn't aware of that fairly counterintuitive limitation.

Oddly, upon abandoning my Capital and only city, I got up the "You have achieved a Conqust Victory" screen. Something to do with debug mode?
 
Tavis, let me start off with much thanks for your close ties with
the community, and for being so upfront about corruption thoughts!

Let me review the goals and effects, and make a suggestion...

Principles of Corruption and of any Design Changes/Fixes

* First do no harm
Fix the existing palace rank bug and RCP exploit, but don't 'overhaul' things.

* Corruption is a good thing
Corruption is a hugely important game element, whether people like it or not :P
It breaks a positive feedback loop leading to runaway wins, where the biggest and
toughest and most aggressive civs would continuously increase their capacity to wage war

* Corruption can be annoying the the player and can hinder AI effectivness
For a game of empire building, to see new cities in "your subcontinent" that are
essentially useless is no fun. The AI doesn't care about fun but its hard to know
how to manage cities that are corrupt. They can't easily tell when a courthouse would
fix things or whether they should irrigate to the hilt and hire taxmen.

* The hope (and implementation) of some device whereby once corrupt cities are
redeemed is highly gratifying (and effective to the extent that its placement is good)
The original Forbidden Palace and its ability to turn things around, and to create a
second 'core' of productive cities that you now build up, is a great system.

I don't thing there's any real disagreement with these points within this thread.
The question is in the details of implementation, so lets look at more detailed
objectives, given as pairs of axioms and conclusions.

* Adding a Forbidden Palace should never increase corruption in ANY city
--> A single ranked list ordered by distance to nearest palace is insufficient.
Why? A productive city a given distance from the palace could be quite lower in ranking
when the FP has several cities more closeby

* Adding a Forbidden Palace should offer distinct help to cities near it
--> A single ranked list ordered by distance to true palace is insufficent
We're partly seeing the effect of this in v1.12 (though bug is not identical). Having
a brand new FP and seeing cities right next to it with 50% corruption is disheartening.

If you agree with the two axioms above, the combined conclusion is:
No single ranked list can guarantee a new FP will decrease corruption in any given city.


The next set of principles and conclusions depend on what your design goal is:

- If you want/expect the FP/SPHQ/etc to be full equivalents to the palace
--> Corruption in a city is a 'local' phenomenon, not dependent on what's up 'further out'
--> Have 'n' separate rank order lists, and consider key distance as to-nearest-one
--> If you're not precomputing ordered lists, Sir Pleb nailed it with the line:
if this.ClosestPalace() <> pLoopCity.ClosestPalace() then Continue

- If you want the building of a FP/SPHQ to provide a generic corruption boost in all
cities, but nothing special for the cities near the FP itself
--> FP is some magic increase in govenment efficiency but its location is irrelevant
--> FP would solely increase the OCN (and optionally reduce that city's corruption)

- If you want the FP to have a regional effect, but less powerful than the palace itself
--> A corruption 'boost' but only up to to ~50% not ~100%, over a region
--> post-correct the cityCorruption value by a value of, say 2 for FP and 3 for SPHQ

- If you want the FP to have strong local regional effect, but less than the true palace
--> if ClosestPalacer() <> TruePalace() then: Use an effective OCN = Real OCN / 2
--> Full strength corruption reduction in a multi-ranked list, but for fewer cities

Of these, the first makes the most sense to me, which makes this post a long-winded way
of saying that SirPleb's change would result in distinct lists for each palace that would:
avoid an FP build ever increasing corruption, provide a local/regional second core
in a way that makes the smallest possible change to the code base.
:goodjob:

The only major objections I'm seeing to this solution are these two:
i) the AI doesn't know how to place a Forbidden Palace well and it gives the human too
big an advantage.
ii) The Palace jump, which the AI never does, is exploitative and this doesn't "fix" it

With respect to point i, after being in dozens of succession games I've NEVER heard
people lament how disappointing the game became after the FP turned them into a monster.
Of COURSE the human is going to do a better job, in fact, deciding WHEN and WHERE is
a major key element to becoming a good player, and a key challenge of the game. (The
ability to jump the palace however, takes away the concern and skill. Plop one next door
to capital and hop your palace around wherever you like later to fix poor choices)
That can be compensated if it isn't already by AI suffering small small amount less
(say a 0 to 30% OCN increase, depending on difficulty) to account for their less than
perfect FP placement.

On point ii, there are several possible solutions. 1) Eliminate abandoning the city with
your capital. 2) Whenever a palace shift occurs by capture or abandonment, throw the
government into a period of anarchy
. 3) Have the anarchy only come with an abandonment.
(I don't follow discussions on Palace Jump, so there are probably other concerns and
options here)

Looking forward to the new patch anyway, and good news on the regular updates!
Charis

PS Sheesh! A guy goes on vacation for a week and a half and comes back to find a 12 page
thread on corruption started by the developers! :P
 
Originally posted by Bamspeedy


They should be asking you that. People who want a more challenging AI have obviously played this game ALOT.

So the people who want a challenging AI can play at "beyond Sid" level with max AI aggressiveness and leave the vast majority who play on Monarch or below to enjoy the game mechanics as they were originally, which included a FP that actually worked like a second palace.

I didn't agree with what the original poster said, since he was free to return the game, but your reponse gives a very strong impression of "elitism" which you may or may not have meant.

In any event, I got C3C for $9.99 at Amazon and even though that was $10 more than I should have paid, since it was $10 more than the people who only bought this expansion paid instead of getting both like I did, I think it was worth the cash.
 
Ok, am I the only one that things that a supposed 'public' beta 'patch' has *NO* official mention by Firaxis, Atari, CivFanatics, or Apolyton. We're supposed to go to the web site of some party I've never heard of, and run an executable out of a zip file that has NO shred of any Firaxis/Breakaway support from it, and with a unprofessional .bmp file the only thing I can see without launching the exe?

Even if you early adopters have good virus protection, that won't stop a trojan horse. Maybe someone who has installed it can post the offical Firaxis readme, but that list of "Beta 1.13 changes" that is floating around doesn't look anything like a Firaxis Release Notes textfile. And it's four days early?? :confused:

Legit patch? Spyware/trojan/hoax? Dunno, but I'm not touching that file with a ten foot pole until Tavis or the Firaxis web site announces it. :cringe:

:hammer:
Charis
 
Originally posted by Charis
Ok, am I the only one that things that a supposed 'public' beta 'patch' has *NO* official mention by Firaxis, Atari, CivFanatics, or Apolyton. We're supposed to go to the web site of some party I've never heard of, and run an executable out of a zip file that has NO shred of any Firaxis/Breakaway support from it, and with a unprofessional .bmp file the only thing I can see without launching the exe?

Even if you early adopters have good virus protection, that won't stop a trojan horse. Maybe someone who has installed it can post the offical Firaxis readme, but that list of "Beta 1.13 changes" that is floating around doesn't look anything like a Firaxis Release Notes textfile. And it's four days early?? :confused:

Legit patch? Spyware/trojan/hoax? Dunno, but I'm not touching that file with a ten foot pole until Tavis or the Firaxis web site announces it. :cringe:

:hammer:
Charis


Well, unitl it appears at www.atarisupport.com , like 1.12, I'll consider this as an unofficial beta patch.
 
Originally posted by Charis
Ok, am I the only one that things that a supposed 'public' beta 'patch' has *NO* official mention by Firaxis, Atari, CivFanatics, or Apolyton.
Does seem strange - if v1.12 Beta is on the Atari site, why not v1.13?
 
Charis,

I installed last night and did not have any difficult continuing a 1.12 game, but I agree the method is NOT GOOD. Even if it is a alpha beta patch, it should not have been released on a new site. Links from poly or civfan to this new site do not lend credibility. Moreover we are missing an annoucement from Tavis or any official spokesman on:
-- patch QA level: alpha, pre-beta, beta, etc
-- readme: changes, known problems
-- since not FCS, what is the feedback mechanism for bug reports
-- a good explanation as to why patch is not available on either poly or civfan, both can't be having disk space problems.

I figure my risk level is acceptable with a firewall, antivirus, little confidential info on computer and regularly running spyware discovery programs. I am actually looking for a good excuse to rebuild the OS as I don't like the way it is performing now. But, even with all that, this risk level should not have to be accepted by any player. As soon as I start putting confidential info on computer, then using any unclarified patches will be unacceptable. We definitely need a better process of patch distribution from Fireaxis. Just because it is somewhere around Beta quality doesn't mean we need to accept unnecessary OS corruption risks.

== PF
 
... but your reponse gives a very strong impression of "elitism"

How ironic that you of all people would say something like that, considering past statements you have said about the site you participate in vs. the CFC GOTM.

I already explained my statement (9 days ago), you didn't need to bring it back up again.
 
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