Firaxis explanation on why tanks lose to killer phalanx

Originally posted by Julian I
So instead of making resources more available, they just nerfed the modern units?!?!?!?!

However, if the strat rescources are readily avilable, then there is no point to having them. You need scarcity to generate trade and wars.

The only way that this would work was if the strat rescources were readily available, but you could only work on as many projects per turn as you had strat resources. So if you only have one Iron, then only one swordsman per trurn from any of your cities.

Then you could make it pretty available and still have it drive trade and wars.
 
Perhaps Tanks are considered mounted units and thefore pikeman get a x2 bonus?

That'd explain that.


I fight all the time, and I have yet to notice any problems with the system. Most battle outcomes make sense to me statistically.

I read the chat log with Soren Johnson, and I have to say I feel reassured now that Firaxis is really working hard on that patch, and not ignoring the fans!

I bet the patch will be out around Nov 30th. That's just my guess, from seeing everything I've read. And as being a programmer, a slightly educated estimate.
 
Either that or Firaxis got lazy and decided to count any unit with a movement rate greater than one as "mounted".

When I get Civ III (eventually!), I'm going to build in my own firepower rules by doubling up the A/D scores of high end units.
 
I'm glad they took into account that you might end up with NONE of the modern resources and should be able to put up at least some defense.

In my current game(warlord,regular,american,3 opponents), I've got my own continent with a good mixture of some desert, tundra, jungle, etc. and I got all the saltpepper in the world, but I have no rubber,oil,uranium, or aluminum. Anywhere. I've managed to trade for rubber and uranium, but the AI won't trade me oil at all. If I couldn't build Ironclads Calvery and Riflemen, I'd be toast.

I keep waiting for some new resources to appear, but no dice so far.
 
For those that are curious about riflemen resource reqs, the civilopedia states that by the time riflemen are available, "saltpeter is in abundance, and therefore not needed" or something like that.
 
1 out of 4 tanks lose to pikemen? After about 40-50 hours of play, I'm still waiting for these mysterious battle outcomes everyone is crying about to occur to me. I've had the opposite experience. I recently had a band of Immortals sweep across the Zulus with surprising ease. Had no trouble disposing of Impi with 4 off. v 2 def. I can't imagine having trouble with tanks v ancient units. The odd outcome should happen every once in awhile, but I, personally, have had no problems whatsoever. Too much of the stronger unit beating the lower unit, if anything.

I don't think Soren's comments was to imply that spearmen should beat tanks, just that Civ3 tanks aren't as powerful relative to ancient units as they were in Civ2. At least give you some chance if you don't have access to a critical resource. Sounds fair to me.

As someone already mentioned, if resources were more abundant what would be the point of having them in the game at all. If everyone has everything in their borders, more or less, than what's the point? The game is made much more interesting when they're scarce. You could be dominating and suddenly find yourself w/o X resource and suddenly it's a whole new ballgame. Or another Civ is dominating and you get the resource that turns the tables. The most exciting times in the game is when I discover a new resource and scan the map to see who's got what and how it affects the balance of the game.

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THANK you eMarkm for the SANE comment to this thread (at last!).

In my latest game I'm ransacking the Babylonians using Riders- sometimes I get desperate for an outcome and can't wait for my catapults to catch up to soften them and I'll take a potshot at his fortified pikemen. More often than not, two riders can take one Pikeman out. Seems great to me! If it were any EASIER this game would suck bigtime, and that is exactly what people in here seem to be BEGGING to have happen!

If I had a tank I'd be at his capital right now rather than battling at his southern marches...

Most of the complaints are of the variety of: My TANKS won't beat his PIKEMEN... but hold on here- you think the game would be MORE fun if they automatically DID? Geez, you're already on the cusp of winning, and if any thought was being used here you'd really be complaining like this:

"WHAT is WRONG with the AI that they only HAVE pikemen- they need to get RIFLEMEN by the time I have tanks!! This is NOT FUN..."

I just don't get it. I've yet to lose ONE tank in over ten games now at regent level vs. a pikeman. I do NOT reload savegames to try again, I take what is dealt me and think HARD before I take an action. It is a STRATEGY (and tactics) game. I'm GLAD they finally got around to adding in a bit of battlefield TACTICS in civ... It's a blast!
 
If the AI didn't want to be rolled over, it should have had tanks of its own with which to put up a fight. It seems to me the AI has already lost - it is just that the the coup de grâce has yet to be administered. Cue the wacky results. The crappy battle system protects the weak and inept AI.

I can think of many scenarios where that would be very bad (While trying to compete against a more equal AI for instance - you'd be the laughing stock of the modern world!)

Dearmad, if you want it to be HARDER, crank up the difficulty level.
 
Is it just me, or are these all about how their OWN armor can't take out some pikemen or something. Why don't the enemy have armor or any modern troops? It seems that you are playing on far too easy setting if your enemies have pikemen and you armor...
Maybe turning up the difficulty would be in order. At least then you might be happier when your armor are destroyed by some more advanced troops like muskets.
 
What level is everyone playing on? Perhaps theres a system built in on the lower levels that if you've complelty out classed your oponents then thier old units perfomr better?

Been playing on Monarch myself. Havent noticed anything to much, except that the AI "MIGHT" be getting slightly better odds in combat then it should. But nothing at all so far compared to the diety games of Civ 2.

Since I've been working with my begining game strategies I havent gotten to the modern age yet, so don't know about this tank thing. But my ancient units havent had more then normal difficulty takeing over thier cities.
 
Amen to Dearmad and eMarkM. If anything, it seems like I've been having too good of results (playing on regent).

I rolled over Persia's fortified spearmen with knights, longbowmen, and catapults -- 4 attack vs. 2 defense modified to 3 or 4 for fortifying in cities. Now I'm beating the Iroquois' fortified riflemen with my cavalry and cannon: 6 attack vs. 6 def. mod to 8 or 9! What's up? If Napoleonic cavalry charged US Civil War infantry they would have been slaughtered, but I'm making respectable progress in what was historically an era of military stalemate overcome only with horrendous casualties.

But really, if it bugs you that much, just use the freakin' editor already. (Unless, like me, using the editor breaks your science advisor. Oh well, the end of the month approaches....)
 
Setsuna do you know how to read? *I* am not complainging about the AI not having appropriate units to face me with, OTHER people are and then they also complain about not being able to BEAT those poorer units with their SUPERIOR might? All I said is I haven't lost a tank to a pikemen (ever) and that I in my current game I'm wiping fortified pikemen from the map with Riders.

Again... can you READ!?

I am not defending the battle system because it gives the AI a chance, I am saying if the battle system were any MORE in favor of attackers and/or modern units than it already is these OTHER PEOPLE would have even LESS of a challenge. For myself, I am NOT much challenged by Riders going in to enemy Pikemen. Most of the complainers are on Warlord level I am playing (happily at Regent).

Again... READ before you reply.

Setsuna, I don't need to turn up the difficulty level. I'm having fun with Civ3 and not upset with the balance- I *am* upset with the prospect of Fiaxis making a patch so that when I decide to invade some poor thirdworld nation that has only Pikemen with my tanks that it will be a simple cakewalk when in the GAME that sort of UNBALANCE would take a LOT of fun out of the MINOR risk of sending a few tanks/arty/and inf. into little India to mop up, history be damned, I'm talking about the GAME!

beorthwulf: I started another thread about Regent vs. Warlord level... I'm beginning to suspect something is amiss, because I'm strolling through foreign empires with Riders and thinking "I'm NOT the uberciv player! I NEVER played Civ2 on Deity and only enjoyed the challenge at King level in Civ2, so what changed?" I can't believe everyone else is facing some horrible learning curve that I beat in one game (at Warlord where I lost) only to never face the possibility of losing at REGENT level (where I play now).

But -sigh- again even in that thread I'm facing people who can't read, and they patiently tell me (as if quoting the manual) that Warlord level is easier and Regent the parity (not a word they'd use but I use it) level, but I ALREADY KNOW THAT! ugh...

And one last thing: I am so HAPPY to hear the editor breaks your science advisor! You're only the third person I'veheard this from but oyu're not alone- it happens to me too, so maybe they'll look into it and fix it. I ALSO made a mod but it ALWAYS crashes after the first turn and all I did was turn up someunit attributes.. :(
 
Remember, Sid has said on multipule ocassions, Fun vs. Realism = Fun should win. I didn't buy this game for realism, I bought it for fun. Besides, it IS realistic. All the pikemen have to do is did a couple of pits, and wait for the tanks to fall in them or get stuck in the mud.
And if you lag only about ten years behind a rival in science, and your rival discovered riflemen, he'd supposidly win every combat and wipe out you before you could cash in on your discovery! What sort of balance is THAT!
Thumbs up to CivIII's combat!
 
Ive never lost a tank to anything less than infantry...and that means Ive never lost to pikemen, spearmen, knights, or anything...and Ive had my fair share of shots...Maybe yall need some more experienced tanks going into battle, or increase difficulty level so the enemy doesnt have pikemen defending when you're attacking with tanks...haha..whata concept...
 
They're in their own little world, Julian. If you try to bring them to their senses, they begin frothing at the mouth while trying to claw your eyes out.

Here's another good thread over at Apolyton.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=33055

I've seen some good attempts at explaination there. One of the lasts posts in the thread (Made by Sevorak) was very intriguing. Perhaps he has located the problem.
 
"Couldn't someone just make a mod that doubled the A/D of all modern units? Then phalanxes couldn't kill tanks as easy..."


I dont get it, I dont have any such problems. I haven´t lost a single tank to a phlanx or even a musketman. (I haven´t tried to kill a phlanx who has alot of def bonus, in a metropolis, or in a fortress on a mountain)

I belive that this new HP system works great. Sure a phlanx may get one shot at the tank and make the tank loose a HP. But it wouldn´t kill a veteran tank with 4 HP.

But since all of you are complaining then I guess that there are some kind of bug. Im playing on regent.
 
Combat system needs changes, HECK YES.

(see my much earlier post regarding why firaxis changed it)

But a complete overhaul NO.

First Removing FP, is okay. Most units that had high FP in Civ 2, now have bombard in Civ 3

Higher Doubling attack value is essentially the same as Doubling FP

ALL that needs to be reworked are HIT POINTS.

Really there are two problems with the current system

1. (correct me im im wrong here) but it looks like 3 HP = 3 HP, unlike in civ 2 where 1 HP really equalled 10, 2 = 20, & 3 = 30.

with only 3 instead of 10 the statisticall probability of a ridiculous outcome is much higher.

Even if they just increased this to 30,40,&50 (multiply no of hit points by 10 -for all units, no change in balance) this would Make a big difference.

2. However the other problem is elite ancient units having 5 hp when say modern armor (non vet) have 3.

This should be fixed.
My suggestion

10 HP for ancient era units (all types)
20 HP for gunpowder infantry & some sea unit
30 HP for Armor, Mech inf, and most metal ships
40 HP for Battleship Carrier

+5 HP for Veteran
another 5 HP on top of that for elite
(Total of +10 HP for elite)

Although this would not be perfect (elite ancients would be on par - Except for A/D values - with gunpowder infantry) It would be a good balance between realism and gameplay, and would smooth out most of the problems

Not sure if this can be done with the editor in the way i've described.. but i think firaxis are going to improve the edior in the patch, so if they dont fix the units maybe we can
 
Originally posted by bulletsponge
Ive never lost a tank to anything less than infantry...and that means Ive never lost to pikemen, spearmen, knights, or anything...and Ive had my fair share of shots...Maybe yall need some more experienced tanks going into battle, or increase difficulty level so the enemy doesnt have pikemen defending when you're attacking with tanks...haha..whata concept...

"...increase difficultly level so the enemy does..."

maybe you should read what they are saying. They said they are having problems with Tanks being beat by Spearmen. If they increased the difficultly level then there would be more complaining! I have noticed some problems with combat also, but I am rethinking my Civ3 strategy incase that is the real problem. I am trying to un-Civ2 myself. I'd suggest that everyone go back and look at what they are doing. Take into account what Civ3 thinks is important and leave out that Civ2 crap, it will get you killed.

My credentials? I have been owned by Diety and now Regent Civ3. :)
Chieftain Civ3, you are still my...well you know what you are!
 
That's a very interesting suggestion, jim. (****, I sound like Dr. McCoy...) ;)

I'd also love to see experience affecting the effectiveness of the units, not the hitpoints. I understand the reason behind giving an elite unit more hitpoints, but it's cuasi-ridiculous if experience doesn't make the unit perform better as well.

Experience should make offensive units attack better and defensive units defend better.

For instance, what's the difference between an infantry unit fresh out of boot camp and an elite infantry unit? The combat experience, of course. And combat experience is directly translated to how many times that unit succeeded. Because if it didn't succeed it'd be dead, not elite.

On the other side of the coin, yes, combat experience should also affect how hard to kill a unit actually is, to reflect the tactics and little things that unit learned to save its neck in countless occasions. So it should be a mixture of combat effectiveness + increase in hitpoints (*).

Example :

All units should start at Conscript level. If you have barracks where it's built, it should start as regular. And if you have the Military Academy wonder in that continent, they should start at Veteran. This is to reflect the refinement of tactics and intensity of training as time passes and your civ develops.

Conscript: 2hp - No bonuses
Regular : 3hp - No bonuses
Veteran : either (3hp - +1 att/+1 def depending if it's an offensive or defensive unit) or (4hp - no bonuses).
Elite : 4hp - +1 att/+1 def depending if it's an offensive or defensive unit.

So, this system would reflect not only that experienced units are harder to kill than newbies, but also that they learned to be more effective doing whatever they do best, something that the game doesn't contemplate as of now.

If you send both a conscript-level infantry unit and an elite-level infantry unit to take a city, the elite unit has more chances to succeed. But not because their skin is 2 inches thicker or that they learned to dodge bullets, but because they've been there, done that, got the t-shirt on many earlier occasions and they learned how to do their job better.

It's another example of the general defensive-biased mindset of the game as it is now... better units don't perform better, they're just harder to kill. IMO, it needs to be revised... that concept will get you kicked out of any military academy in the world in half an hour.

Peace...

(*): Hitpoints in Civ3 is just a metaphor representing how hard a unit is to kill. It reflects surviving tips and techniques a unit learns with time, not an increase in health or anything. If a bullet hits, it has the same chances to kill either if it hits a recruit or an elite member of a crack team. Crack teams, however, learned to minimize somewhat the chances of getting hit and that's what the game represents.

I hope...

:)

PS: Oh, and those hp amounts I gave are not set in stone at all. I'm sure they're gonna have to be increased across the board for industrial/modern units, since apparently for the game 1hp of a spearman = 1hp of a tank.
 
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