Firaxis, please fix the "steal-worker-exploit"!

[goodolarchie]

I agree with the same-turn peace being a broken mechanic in need of fixing. I didn't realize so many people actually did this though. In BTS, the worker steal was a necessary evil because of how difficult Deity was. The exploit (and that level of min/maxing in general) isn't by any means necessary to win at Immortal/Deity in Civ V, in any expansion, for any victory type, so I'm not sure why people incorporate it as a standard practice in their strategy... except perhaps ego boost in MP games..? Still, a fix would be ideal.

 

[Kwami]

I'm failing to see how this is an exploit. You get a benefit, but there are consequences to your action.

Not enough consequences. Not even close.

 

[Chris Hill]

Once you realize how incredibly hard it is to actually win a (mostly) peaceful game without the early-game speed boon that you get by stealing a CS worker on higher difficulties, you'll see that the ability to do so NEEDS to be in the game.

Playing at Prince, and occasionally King, I have NEVER stolen a worker from a CS, and always send barb acquired workers back to their owner. Doesn't seem to stop me winning, but I will have to wait for BNW of here to see if that changes.

 

[Luckystrike77]

The biggest problem is that the CS agrees on peace the same turn, so you can easely steal it with a weak unit like a scout, even with a wounded scout. The CS is totally defenseless Should at least go 5-10 turns before a CS agrees on peace again.

Other then that I think the diplomatic panalties are so strong after stealing one, that stealing more atleast seldom is a good idea.

We should also talk abot the strong demanding tribute of CS-mechanism early game. Way to easy money for a "rush building player" early game, especially when playing quick speed multiplayer. You can demand a worker too, but mostly the Money are used for upgrading Your wast Archer army after Construction, then go kill nearest neighbour easely.

 

[EEE_BOY]

Stealing a worker guarantees no dof early, would you rather go for a free worker or the chance of having 1-2 early friendly civs to trade cash? the trade-off is big decision to make.

most of the needy AIs (who want friendship quickly) are the ones care about CS.

 

[Deggial]

I didn't realize so many people actually did this though. ... I'm not sure why people incorporate it as a standard practice in their strategy... except perhaps ego boost in MP games..?

Not everybody who don't think it is an exploit uses this practice in his game. I don't, for example...

Mostly because of the mentioned effects. Even as a warmonger, I try to keep my fellow rulers quiet for as long as possible. One DoW more without trading denial suits my play better than the "free" worker. (But maybe, I simply don't play optimal; However, I usually go 'Liberty' and get my worker anyway and early enough.)

Sometimes, I think that some people don't evaluate an effect strongly enough, just because the effect isn't visible right away. It is like radiation: you can't see it, you can't smell it... but it is still there and will harm you - even if it takes a while until you feel bad!

Anyway, as mentioned above, I am all for an prolonged war with the CS after the kidnapping!

 

[RealHuhn]

The biggest problem is that the CS agrees on peace the same turn, so you can easely steal it with a weak unit like a scout, even with a wounded scout. The CS is totally defenseless Should at least go 5-10 turns before a CS agrees on peace again.

Other then that I think the diplomatic panalties are so strong after stealing one, that stealing more atleast seldom is a good idea.

We should also talk abot the strong demanding tribute of CS-mechanism early game. Way to easy money for a "rush building player" early game, especially when playing quick speed multiplayer.

That wouldn't fix it though. Stealing from 2nd ring would still be possible without harm. Still better than nothing, of course.

I like the idea that CSs always protect their workers. That plus 5-10 turn war should be easy to implement.

 

[Luckystrike77]

That wouldn't change much though. Remember, you don't get pushed out of their borders when you declare. So in many cases, your wounded unit can escape without harm anyway, especially scouts.

Yeah, but it would definatly make it less easy and not free of risk, especially on higher difficulties. It would also make it potentially devastating to depend on a worker stealing "strategy". Those building their workers themselves gets a great lead in improving the land.

It would also take longer time before the relations started to get better again, if you had some turns of war.

So it would slightly help, but perhaps not enough.

I always play multiplayer. In singleplayer you of course have the relation points to the AI nations to worry about too, but especially early game multiplayer, worker stealing feels very exploitive, same goes for demanding tribute.

 

[Delodax]

Some good suggestions in this thread. Would love a removal of ability to instantly get a peace treaty and also the idea that city states always has a military unit guarding the worker is brilliant and seemingly simple to implement.

 

[Inhalaattori]

I think the problem is clearly that you can make peace right away. It doesnt even make any sense.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Once you realize how incredibly hard it is to actually win a (mostly) peaceful game without the early-game speed boon that you get by stealing a CS worker on higher difficulties,

That's why it's called "higher difficulties." IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE HARD or maybe even impossible to pull off. Frankly, my opinion is that if you (or I) have to lean on crutches like the worker stealing to win on "higher difficulties" you should just take the ego hit and knock the difficulty down a notch or two.

Strategy is one thing, but if every single plan starts with "steal a worker" or such, then something is wrong. This is the same thing as when every opening started with "Sell useless lux get 240 gold."

I know personally I feel better about winning or losing on the merits of my own plan instead of relying on a trick or scheme I saw somewhere. To each their own, I guess (maybe I'm getting too wound up about this).

 

[TheHanzou]

In Multiplayer the advantage of stealing 1-2 workers is so huge that i doubt anyone would stop doing it even if it meant permanent War with ALL City states FOREVER.

That should tell you how OP it is. They did in fact increase the penalty for stealing quite a bit during G&K patches, to the point where at least doing it numerous times had permanent consequences, but not nearly enough still.

what people like to abuse as well is war+peace each turn while attacking the city with their Archer Units, spawning free great generals and Experience.

Fact of the matter is, if you go to war with a city state it should take 10 Turns before peace could be possible again, that would fix some of the problems. Maybe city states are actually worth trading with now that we have trade routes and a revamped game, but i dont have the game yet so i cant comment on that.

 

[Flaxton]

It's slavery! You should have a permanent negative reaction with that CS or CIV but if you ever choose the Freedom path - all your 'Slaves' should go free. If you choose another policy unhappiness should increase unless you release the worker.

 

[brindle]

Yeah, but it would definatly make it less easy and not free of risk, especially on higher difficulties. It would also make it potentially devastating to depend on a worker stealing "strategy". Those building their workers themselves gets a great lead in improving the land.

It would also take longer time before the relations started to get better again, if you had some turns of war.

So it would slightly help, but perhaps not enough.

I always play multiplayer. In singleplayer you of course have the relation points to the AI nations to worry about too, but especially early game multiplayer, worker stealing feels very exploitive, same goes for demanding tribute.

Yea, I find it can be very gamey in MP games where there is no disadvantage at all. Nothing like starting next to a group of 3 Citystates who crank out 3 workers and 700 gold of tribute in the first 30 turns of the game for the lucky civ. Hello neighbor, meet my fully upgraded army while you are sitting at +3 gold/turn. Basically as it is, you MUST steal workers/demand tribute in MP games to stay competitive.

I really wish they would make stealing / tribute have severe penalties, even in MP games.

 

[Sake]

It should be that when you Dow CS, they don't accept peace for 5 turns. This wouldn't really solve the problem, since you can still sneak it if it's on "your side of CS", but it will make your unit take some damage. If worker is behind CS it would be harder to get back alive.

 

[ProfessorPhobos]

The city-state should refuse to make peace with you until you give the worker back.

 

[headcase]

Playing at Prince, and occasionally King, I have NEVER stolen a worker from a CS, and always send barb acquired workers back to their owner. Doesn't seem to stop me winning, but I will have to wait for BNW of here to see if that changes.

Same here, but those aren't higher difficulties. If the higher difficulties were impossible without the exploit (doubtful), they should make those difficulties slightly easier and remove the exploit all the same.

Still, the equivalent thing happened all the time in history, so it's not necessarily an exploit, though perhaps it could have bigger disadvantages.

 

[DeutschDachs]

I agree with the same-turn peace being a broken mechanic in need of fixing. I didn't realize so many people actually did this though. In BTS, the worker steal was a necessary evil because of how difficult Deity was. The exploit (and that level of min/maxing in general) isn't by any means necessary to win at Immortal/Deity in Civ V, in any expansion, for any victory type, so I'm not sure why people incorporate it as a standard practice in their strategy... except perhaps ego boost in MP games..? Still, a fix would be ideal.

I think it's a bit more than an ego boost when it saves you 10+ turns of production and allows you to get an early jump on creating food, production, gold, and happiness. Honestly if all skill is remotely even, you'll never beat a player that worker steals. Too big an advantage to ignore

 

[CornPlanter]

Sure it will be good if the bad effects is more severe, but personally don't exploit, I don't and if there are people out there who cannot play the game without exploit everything, let them.

You mean people who play the game as is without their own made up rules, and who like making good decisions leading to victory.

 

[Hawawaa]

I agree with waiting 6-10 turns for signing peace with CSs and CSs guard their workers a little better.