Firaxis stereotyping Orientals

[Shaihulud]

I wish that we can develop the kind of traits for our civilization, that would be fun i think. So as we move towards a certain direction, scientific, philosophical or aggressive etc. We will start developing the kind of traits that will most benefit our course of action.

 

[Brighteye]

I think "oriental" is suppossed to be a racist term. Think "Asian" is the accepted word. Yes, racist remarks are still used- in this case by the poster complaining about it.

It's only a racist term if I use it disparagingly. For the whole of my life I have used 'oriental' to describe anyone from the far east, often to my friends from China, Macau and Hong Kong, and no-one has objected.
Asian describes people from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

In America 'Asian' is used to describe people from the far east, and maybe 'oriental' is regarded as a racist term, but it's not racist everywhere. Maybe you need to consider where someone's from before you call him racist.

 

[Captain2]

I find it funny, white people are the only people who havent changed what they like to be called every little while, yet I'm not white, i'm sorta pinkish,

from this day forward we want to be called the pinkish

 

[erikg88]

Considering the moddability of Civ 4, this feels as if Firaxis has put the OP into a dark room and handed him a candle, and now he is shouting, "Egads, it's dark in here!"

Okay, so the purpose of the thread is to attack Firaxis - personally, I think the decision was made from a gameplay perspective.

Also, people always like to decry the evils of PC, but if anything, people who are carefully PC are just trying too hard to be respectful of each people and their culture... and there are worse things to be, y'know?

 

[dh_epic]

To tell you the truth, I wish they'd spend more time making big differences between civs and nations and improved the decision you made in the actual game. I want what I do IN THE GAME to have the biggest impact, not something I decide before the game has started.

 

[Genghis Khan II]

Uhhhh... Its just a game, the makers of the game are just game making people, and about the game making racist comments, i havent exactly looked at the civilopedia and thought "hmmm... I wonder if there are any racist comments in here? I Know! I'll post on civ fanatics forum and acuse friaxis of being racist!"

It makes sence. While europe was getting destroyed by barbarian, small kingdoms were always fighting, and Europe was tearing itself down time and time again, you have all of the aisian countries remaining intact for long periods of time. At least thats how a lot history books portray it. Thats probably how they got the idea. They are game designers, not historians!

 

[bonafide11]

Man, this is ridiculous.

First off, other than Mao who I am not sure deserves the Protective trait (and I believe should have remained philosophical), the other leaders were very defensive so the protective trait fits them.

Second off, the most politically incorrect point you make in your post is your own words. "Oriental" does not describe people, it describes furniture: i.e. Oriental rugs. The people are called "Asians," not "Orientals."

Third off, Tokugawa had nothing to do with Japan when they attacked the U.S. But if you understand Japanese history prior to the nineteenth century, they were very isolationist. They did not trade with other civilizations, etc. This is why Tokugawa is almost impossible to convince to trade anything, and rarely gives open borders. Also, this is why his favorite civic is Mercantalism, which allows no foreign trade routes. These "stereotypes" are historically based...

Is it just a mere coincidence four Far East Oriental leaders (Mao, Qin, Tokugawa, Wang Kon) are given the protective trait in the Warlord expansion? I don't think so.

Firaxis gives them the protective trait most likely because they perceive these leaders, or more likely, the oriental people these leaders represent, as defenders and isolationists.

If you consider the leaders themselves, OK, Tokugawa adopted isolationist policy when he got old. However, Qin should not have got the protective trait. Qin built the Great Wall does not mean he's a defender or isolationist. In fact, he's the classic example of what an imperialist means - an empire builder. Mao did not befriend Americans does not mean he was an isolationist. It's just his friends were Russians, North Koreans and Vietnameses. He was a philosopher, and he really tried to implement communism, so why take away his philosophy and organized traits? About, Wang Kon, he wasn't even the greatest leader in Korean history. I don't know why he was picked.

In terms of the civs they represent, ancient Chinese were quite open-minded till mid-Ming. Tell me why there was a Silk Road (which I believe it should be made a Great wonder) to start with? Ancient Chinese (and even Chinese today) were about imperialism, high productivity, powerful economy (study showed that Chinese generated 1/4 to 1/3 of total world output till early 1800's), sophisticated bureacratic system. Giving both the ancient and modern time Chinese leaders protective trait is just not right. Except in the Edo period, Japanese were not isolationists. And where is the financial prowness of the Japanese? Their spirituality aspect? Their highly organized and stratified society?

Tokugawa was given the aggressive trait probably because Japanese have attacked the US before. Mongols leaders were imperialistic/aggressive because they attacked the Europeans. Everything is based on the EuroAmerican perspective.

When is Firaxis going to stop this crxp?

 

[gettingfat]

It's so funny to see people keep putting words into my mouth. I wasn't even the first person to say Firaxis is racist to start with. I said Firaxis stereotypes East Asians, OK, strictly speaking this is some form of racism, so I followed the flow. I'm annoyed by this act, not mad, not angry, because I believed Firaxis, after making a game that is related to history for FOUR editions with tons of expansions, should by now be a bit more knowledgeable of the history of the civs they chose. Still once they discover this protective trait they can't wait to switch both Chinese leaders and the Japanese leader to it, and disregard the other choices that may fit these leaders and the civs they represent better. I don't know why they do it, racism, ignorance, or commercial decision.. I don't know and I don't care. I find the act annoying and voiced my displeasure, just like Star War fans seeing Jar-Jar Bing in Ep 1.

About the term Oriental, I was borned in Hong Kong. Nobody cares much about political correctness of terminology there. For your information there is a 5-star hotel named Mandarin Oriental Hotel there for almost a century. Now I live in Toronto and there is a restaurant named Oriental Food Delight right in the Chinese community. Some people living around me call themselves Orientals and don't consider this term that bad. You guys make me sound like I try to put myself and my fellows down because I like it. However, once people complaint about its racist implication I stopped using this term, although I can't change the topic title. But I want to ask, can Firaxis do the same?

 

[vra379971]

I'm gonna jump in here and explain for poor Wan.

He united the country (I beleive his dynasty gave the country it's name) all under the hope of protecting his people. Korea has always been protective, because Japan and China have repeatedly wished to use it as the schoolyard to settle disputes.

I have no problem with this decision, infact, I'm happy to have it.

 

[Cereal Box]

It's so funny to see people keep putting words into my mouth. I wasn't even the first person to say Firaxis is racist to start with. I said Firaxis stereotypes East Asians, OK, strictly speaking this is some form of racism, so I followed the flow. I'm annoyed by this act, not mad, not angry, because I believed Firaxis, after making a game that is related to history for FOUR editions with tons of expansions, should by now be a bit more knowledgeable of the history of the civs they chose. Still once they discover this protective trait they can't wait to switch both Chinese leaders and the Japanese leader to it, and disregard the other choices that may fit these leaders and the civs they represent better. I don't know why they do it, racism, ignorance, or commercial decision.. I don't know and I don't care. I find the act annoying and voiced my displeasure, just like Star War fans seeing Jar-Jar Bing in Ep 1.

About the term Oriental, I was borned in Hong Kong. Nobody cares much about political correctness of terminology there. For your information there is a 5-star hotel named Mandarin Oriental Hotel there for almost a century. Now I live in Toronto and there is a restaurant named Oriental Food Delight right in the Chinese community. Some people living around me call themselves Orientals and don't consider this term that bad. You guys make me sound like I try to put myself and my fellows down because I like it. However, once people complaint about its racist implication I stopped using this term, although I can't change the topic title. But I want to ask, can Firaxis do the same?

I think it seems to be asian-americans who are offended by the term oriental to refer to race (scratch that... white people). Anyway, I dunno why it seems confusing to you but oriental refers to things; oriental tea, oriental rugs, food, hotels, whatever. That's why it can be construed as offensive to refer to people that way. It's kinda like calling Asian people "it" instead of "he" or "she."

BUT, it's really not a big deal. More ironic than anything.

Anyway, they stereotype everyone. Like what was said before, the American's unique building is the mall, not exactly a flattering stereotype.

 

[gettingfat]

For those people who kept saying "the game has such a high moddability, so what is the fuss?" The official game is a part of the product they sell to me, right? Imagine if a restaurant sells you some food without adding salt, you voice your displeasure, and the waiter tells you you've got a bottle of salt on your table so shut up, how would you feel? I played NeverWinter Night, one of the most moddable rpg. People were blasting the Black Isle Studio because their original game story was so bleak, particularly when compared to the Baldur's gate series. I want to see a more desirable game before I need to spend time to fix it, is it such a ridiculous request?

 

[Cereal Box]

For those people who kept saying "the game has such a high moddability, so what is the fuss?" The official game is a part of the product they sell to me, right? Imagine if a restaurant sells you some food without adding salt, you voice your displeasure, and the waiter tells you you've got a bottle of salt on your table so shut up, how would you feel? I played NeverWinter Night, one of the most moddable rpg. People were blasting the Black Isle Studio because their original game story was so bleak, particularly when compared to the Baldur's gate series. I want to see a more desirable game before I need to spend time to fix it, is it such a ridiculous request?

I would side with the waiter. If there's salt on the table you're kind of an ******* to complain about it. Though I don't think that's a good analogy.

 

[meatwad4289]

Is it just a mere coincidence four Far East Oriental leaders (Mao, Qin, Tokugawa, Wang Kon) are given the protective trait in the Warlord expansion? I don't think so.

Firaxis gives them the protective trait most likely because they perceive these leaders, or more likely, the oriental people these leaders represent, as defenders and isolationists.

Don't see what your saying but I'll keep an open mind.

If you consider the leaders themselves, OK, Tokugawa adopted isolationist policy when he got old. However, Qin should not have got the protective trait. Qin built the Great Wall does not mean he's a defender or isolationist. In fact, he's the classic example of what an imperialist means - an empire builder.

The Great Wall was ment to defend against the invading Monguls, to isolate them from the rest of China. IE thsi is why he was given the trait.

[/QUOTE]Mao did not befriend Americans does not mean he was an isolationist. It's just his friends were Russians, North Koreans and Vietnameses. He was a philosopher, and he really tried to implement communism, so why take away his philosophy and organized traits?[/QUOTE]
The chinese and Russians DESPISED EACHOTHER, The were better friends to America than Vietnam durign that time, as they no longer supported them after Nixons visit. now I don't know why he was given protective trait, could be that he held the entire nation together but idk..

About, Wang Kon, he wasn't even the greatest leader in Korean history. I don't know why he was picked.

Idk much about Korean History, but.. I beleive he probably did soemthing to make him a great leader,m which is why hes on here.

Tokugawa was given the aggressive trait probably because Japanese have attacked the US before. Mongols leaders were imperialistic/aggressive because they attacked the Europeans. Everything is based on the EuroAmerican perspective.

Actually, Mongols Attacked China and Russia, and Korea, and EVERYTHING. This is the common view of the World, and the common view of fact.
why would Tokugawa be given aggressive just because Japan attacked the US at a diffrent time???

Thats discrimination right there buddy, Saying that just because we're American everything is put in our view.. I'm very offended by this.

When is Firaxis going to stop this crxp?

When you learn the real fact and stop listening to the hypocrits saying Americans or Firaxis is racists....lol

 

[dc82]

For your information there is a 5-star hotel named Mandarin Oriental Hotel there for almost a century. Now I live in Toronto and there is a restaurant named Oriental Food Delight right in the Chinese community.

Again, it comes back to the point, for many today, Oriental is a word used to describe objects and thigns - hotels, foods, rugs, etc. while Asian is the prefered word for people.

The reason why many are pointing over to your choice of words is that, for someone who's bring up racial sensitivies and stereotypes, you should thus be more aware of the words you use - just as you're asking Firaxis to be. While you personally may be fine calling yourself "Oriental," the fact is, there is a good number of people who do find it racially offensive or at least archaic.

And as for the traits - again, it's not like Firaxis has singled out Asians anymore than any other race - all the civs are modeled after brief moments of their history, where their traits may only reflect a single point of their history. I think any person can make the same claims about other races being "reduced" to one or two defining "traits" by Firaxis - but is it malicious? I highly doubt it. It was the decision by Firaxis to not give all civs a blank slate, but to at least give them certain propensities or leanings towards a characteristic that was reflected at one point in their history. That's it. If anything, I find it nice that Firaxis went as far as to give each civ their own language (when you select on their units). Wasn't necessary but was a nice attempt to somewhat diversify the different civs.

 

[Armorydave]

That said, I challenge some of these perceptions because I believe they are not historically correct and for some reasons they keep perpetuating. This is not a crime to me, but this is annoying. Why all four so-called East Asian leaders are tagged with the protective label?

Because with three of the leaders it directly interacts with their UU in a very positive way (ie game play elements) and in at least 2 if not 3 leaders it is an accurate characterization of their role in history (ie historical elements). So the answer to your question is, "A combination of gameplay and historical elements". I can assure you that every national, racial or cultural group could find offense with some characterization in Civ if they were thin skinned or looking for reasons to gripe.

Following up the prior post, the Chinese absolutely built, expanded and reinforced the Great Wall with the specific intention of holding out the steepe dwellers and nomads. The idea that it was built for cultural, ceremonial or decorative reasons is absurd. Just because it didn't work particularly well and has become a cultural monument doesn't change the fact that it was built for purely defensive (protective) reasons.

 

[Koelle]

It's obvious that nobody knows anything about Korea and its leaders, why it's in is beyond me

 

[holyjohn]

It's obvious that nobody knows anything about Korea and its leaders, why it's in is beyond me

You should be aware that they included Koreans not because they were famous in leaders, but because Korean gamers population is quite big.

I myself am Korean and I would play Korea sometimes if I buy the expansion pack...
Maybe Firaxis aimed for gamers like me.


Btw, Wang Kon was included in the game as a symbolizing leader.
He united Korean peninsula and named his country "Koryeo", from which "Korea" came.

However, I believe that the Korean unique unit should have been archer (Hwa-Rang).
Koreans are famous for "accurate" hitting archers, and they still top the
archery in olympics these days.

And about Wang Kon given "protective" attribute, I don't mind it.
Koreans declared large-scale war over very few times in 5000-year history,
but they often were in cases where Chinese (and later on Japanese) declared
war on them and had to defend their homeland.




I am only speaking as my own perspective, but remember that I am NOT
representing the whole Koreans' opinions.

 

[dc82]

Not only is Korea (the DMZ) the most heavily fortified place in the world, but Korea is prob. among the top for most important/influential in world politics - it's gone from an important distributor of Chinese/Indian thought, religion, philosphy, culture to Japan, shaped and affected Cold War politics (and the Korean War), became to an economic power (South Korea) and in the forefront for several research in several fields to being a nuclear and military threat (North Korea).

 

[Alraun]

You can't buy things until you give women the right to vote! I can only assume this is some sort of "shopping" mentality!

Religion becomes obsolete with the discovery of Scientific Method.

Free Speech and Free Religion become available with Liberalism, showing that Conservatives are obviously against these things.

Only Fascists would build Mt. Rushmore.

Do I need to go on? It's easy to find sterotyping and bigotry in anything if you're trying to, whether it's there or not.

 

[Brighteye]

Again, it comes back to the point, for many today, Oriental is a word used to describe objects and thigns - hotels, foods, rugs, etc. while Asian is the prefered word for people.

The reason why many are pointing over to your choice of words is that, for someone who's bring up racial sensitivies and stereotypes, you should thus be more aware of the words you use - just as you're asking Firaxis to be. While you personally may be fine calling yourself "Oriental," the fact is, there is a good number of people who do find it racially offensive or at least archaic.

I agree with you about the traits being a nice addition. I'm not one of those extreme players who wants everything to be random and not customisable.

However, I don't agree with what you say about the words specifically. The OP wasn't complaining about the use of specific words, he was complaining about the stereotyping he perceived.
'English' refers to objects, but I don't become upset when someone describes me as English. I have never come across the term oriental being used only for inanimate objects. Asian is used to refer to people in the far east only in America (although their usage is spreading, like it always does).

The OED, which would note if the term was offensive or archaic, makes no such suggestion about 'oriental'. What is more, it's not my problem if people choose to find particular words offensive if they're a normal part of the language. What would you say if I told you that I find the word 'sensitivity' offensive and that I was disgusted by you using it in your post?
You'd laugh at me and tell me to take my medication. That's how I feel about anyone PC enough to find a word offensive when it's not intended to be.