Firaxis stereotyping Orientals

[Alraun]

I think "oriental" is suppossed to be a racist term. Think "Asian" is the accepted word. Yes, racist remarks are still used- in this case by the poster complaining about it.

The reason Asians prefer "Asian" has nothing to do with racism. It's because Orient means "East" implying that Europe is the center of the world. Of course, by this same reasoning we should find a new name for China.

 

[Koelle]

The chinese and Russians DESPISED EACHOTHER, The were better friends to America than Vietnam durign that time, as they no longer supported them after Nixons visit. now I don't know why he was given protective trait, could be that he held the entire nation together but idk..

China and America have never been friends. China didn't support Vietnam not because it was America's friend but just because that no one supports his non-friend.

Idk much about Korean History, but.. I beleive he probably did soemthing to make him a great leader,m which is why hes on here.

Another guy who knows about neither Korean nor its leaders. I'm wondering if Firaxis doesnt know anything about Korea as well and Korea was just picked as default

Actually, Mongols Attacked China and Russia, and Korea, and EVERYTHING. This is the common view of the World, and the common view of fact.

Unfortunately, they were not always successful when facing real warlords. One of them, located not too far away, was Vietnam. They, the Vietnamese, defeated Mongols troops total 3 times. And here is the Warlord:

Trần Hưng Đạo (陳興&#36947 (1228-1300) was a Vietnamese Grand Commander-in-Chief during the Trần Dynasty. Born as Trần Quốc Tuấn (陳國&#23803, he commanded the Đại Việt (Dai Viet) armies that repelled two major Mongol invasions in the 13th century. His multiple victories over the mighty Mongol Yuan Dynasty under Kublai Khan are considered among the greatest military feats in world history. General Trần Hưng Đạo's military brilliance and prowess is reflected in his many treatises on warfare and is a one of the most accomplished generals in history. He is also one of a very few generals in history to have never lost a single battle or war under his command.

In 1984, a forum of historians from around the world, held in London, England, nominated Trần Hưng Đạo as one of the top 10 generals in world history. In Vietnam, he- along with the Trung sisters is worshiped as a folk god in Vietnamese folklore and considered as the best general ever in Vietnamese history, even greater than the better-known (to Westerners) General Võ Nguyên Giáp, Commander-in-Chief of North Vietnamese army during the Vietnam War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tran_Hung_Dao

Another Warlord Vo Nguyen Giap, who doesnt know him and the Siege of Dien Bien Phu that practically ended the Colonial Era - one important feature of the next expansion?

And everyone knows Ho Chi Minh and his traits:
- Protective: Vietnam has been almost continiuosly at war for more than thousand year and still survives. its Longbowmen and Crossbowmen made life difficult for the mighty Chinese and Mongols for periods and you American know than anyone else about the Uncle Ho's gunpowder units aka Vietcong, don't you?
- Philisophical: Alphabet was already in use in Vietnam around the 3rd century BC when Korea and Japan were still being barbarians. Vietnamese own alphabet - Chu Nom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Nom - was founded later in the 10 century AD but still 500 years earlier than the equivalent korean version. Modern day Japan is still using a modified Chinese alphabet. More about see http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=chinese_letters or my attachment. Vietnamese Van Mieu aka Temple of Literature was founded in 1070 in Hanoi and the first ever national university was established within it in 1076 - one of the oldest universities in the world if i'm not competely wrong. The university functioned for more than 700 years, from 1076 to 1779. During that time, 2,313(!) doctors graduated. Crazy number! It's a kind of Oxford University and the likes and Korean Sewon is a joke compared to ithttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Literature

 

[dc82]

However, I don't agree with what you say about the words specifically. The OP wasn't complaining about the use of specific words, he was complaining about the stereotyping he perceived.
'English' refers to objects, but I don't become upset when someone describes me as English. I have never come across the term oriental being used only for inanimate objects. Asian is used to refer to people in the far east only in America (although their usage is spreading, like it always does).

The OED, which would note if the term was offensive or archaic, makes no such suggestion about 'oriental'. What is more, it's not my problem if people choose to find particular words offensive if they're a normal part of the language. What would you say if I told you that I find the word 'sensitivity' offensive and that I was disgusted by you using it in your post?
You'd laugh at me and tell me to take my medication. That's how I feel about anyone PC enough to find a word offensive when it's not intended to be.

Again, you're missing my point - you can look at how the OED defines things, but there's also a big difference on how words are used on the streets, whether it be in England, the U.S., Hong Kong or wherever. The fact of the matter is, at least in a good portion of the United States, a good number of people will find the word choice of "Oriental" to be at least questionable. Whether you agree with it or not is your choice, and at the end, it's a matter of your wisdom on whether or not you find it appropriate enough to use the word or not. There are plenty of similiar cases in English - there's a good number of slang that can be appropriate in one English speaking country that can be offensive to another - whether that be "bloody," or a slang to cigarettes.

Now the problem especially comes since this whole topic is about racial sensitivies to begin with - that Firaxis supposedly was stereotyping, or reducing certain civ's into certain traits that one found racial or insensitive. Given this whole topic, it seems as if some who have responded in this thread find it funny that the person who has brought up this issue stepped on a similar shoe by using a word that others can find insensitive, just as this person found the stereotyping of civs by Firaxis insensitive in the first place.

 

[dc82]

The reason Asians prefer "Asian" has nothing to do with racism. It's because Orient means "East" implying that Europe is the center of the world. Of course, by this same reasoning we should find a new name for China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental

There is racial considerations for why Asian is prefered over Oriental, at least in the United States. Again, whether or not you agree with it, use it, etc. is your own perogative. The fact is that there are people who do agree with the thoughts listed in the link. But hey, it's a free world, you can choose to use whatever language/choice of worsd you want - just accept whatever consequences (if there even is any) that may arise.

 

[Koelle]

Not only is Korea (the DMZ) the most heavily fortified place in the world, but Korea is prob. among the top for most important/influential in world politics

If that's your logic, I would say tiny Palestine is more important than Da lol: )Han Min Guo

shaped and affected Cold War politics (and the Korean War)

correct me if i'm wrong, but has Korean war always been mentioned as the forgotten conflict http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/koreaforgottenconflict/index.html
And Cold War politics shaped and affected the Korean peninsula, not the other way around

and in the forefront for several research in several fields

like this guy?
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=Korean+scientist+Hwang+Woo-suk+cheats&meta=
I found 711 artikels about him

to being a nuclear and military threat (North Korea).

Pardon me, what? After Irad down, Korea is the only root of all evils today

 

[dc82]

If that's your logic, I would say tiny Palestine is more important than Da lol: )Han Min Guo

That's your opinion, which I'm not discounting. But I think again, it does back that Korea is at least worthy of consideration.

correct me if i'm wrong, but has Korean war always been mentioned as the forgotten conflict http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/koreaforgottenconflict/index.html
And Cold War politics shaped and affected the Korean peninsula, not the other way around

I don't disagree that Cold War politics affected the Korean situation - but at the end, it still took place in Korea and because of Korea and the outcome, it did heavily influence world politics - whether or not it is acknowledged is another question.

like this guy?
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=Korean+scientist+Hwang+Woo-suk+cheats&meta=
I found 711 artikels about him

Okay... your point being? One bad egg doesn't spoil the bunch. Does Floyd's doping charge mean all American athletes are cheaters? Does Castro mean that all Cubans are evil? Either way, Korea is still definitely one of the leaders in research, not just in biochemistry, genetics, but also in semiconductors, electronics, etc. It is also prob. one if not the most wired countries in the world.

Pardon me, what? After Irad down, Korea is the only root of all evils today

I don't even understand what your point is. But either way, what goes on in the Korean peninsula today - the relationship mess between N. and S. Korea, China, the U.S., Japan, etc. is rather important in today's politics.

 

[Koelle]

I don't like war but if you think war could change the importance of a country Vietnam war is much much more important than Korean war. it actually changed the new world order while Korea is still a unsolved problem

 

[Aarvaead]

Get over yourself. 1) It is a game. 2.) My wife is Chinese and I have spent years teaching ESL to Chinese students; most of which are still friends. If you take a close look at Mao's financial policies and certain incidents (which have been confirmed) of tanks with students or newspaper writers being "silenced", I think you have to concede that he IS protective. Furthermore, if you wish to continue holding a political discussion or making slanderous remarks, please do your homework and/or go to a political website to debate it.

 

[Alraun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental

There is racial considerations for why Asian is prefered over Oriental, at least in the United States. Again, whether or not you agree with it, use it, etc. is your own perogative. The fact is that there are people who do agree with the thoughts listed in the link. But hey, it's a free world, you can choose to use whatever language/choice of worsd you want - just accept whatever consequences (if there even is any) that may arise.

"The neutrality of this article is disputed."

When a Wikipedia article has that label, it's there for a damned good reason.

 

[Pantastic]

However, I don't agree with what you say about the words specifically. The OP wasn't complaining about the use of specific words, he was complaining about the stereotyping he perceived.

Except that the only stereotyping he mentioned was from what he interpreted the word 'protective' to mean when describing a leader trait. I'd say that's a complaint about the word; his whole 'isolationist' bit wouldn't have anything to hang on if they called the trait "engineering and super archers" instead.

 

[darkedone02]

The people at Firaxis have some of the most screwed up stereotypes and perceptions of history that anybody could possibly have. You'd think they would have bothered to have talked to atleast a few historians or something before programming some of this garbage in. Also, although I'm far-and-hell away from being much of a fan of political correctness, some of the racist stuff in civilopedia descriptions is pretty appalling.

But nobody seems here seems to mind it. I've modded a lot of it out of my games. My cookie cutter mod is mostly done, but I want to get Warlords going and see what I have to do to get that working there as well.

@gettingfat, I suggest you look into modding the game. You'd be amazed at what you can change with relative ease. I like the Silk Road GW idea. You won't find much sympathy here.

If firaxis is making false historic things, then how about someone make a little add-on to the game that replaces every false thing into a true thing? like fix all the civilopedia and put in real historical info

 

[dc82]

"The neutrality of this article is disputed."

When a Wikipedia article has that label, it's there for a damned good reason.

Whether or not the article is slanted, it still does show that the situation exists. And at the end, that's the point.

 

[.Shane.]

I think "oriental" is suppossed to be a racist term. Think "Asian" is the accepted word. Yes, racist remarks are still used- in this case by the poster complaining about it.

Yes, this set off my irony e-meter as well.

 

[Rule Brittania]

I'm going to back to something said a while ago,the japanese were protective and at one point banned all foriegn ships from coming into japanese harbours for fear of other ideas taking over thier unique culture, in the end that stoped at look at japan now. if you went to a japanese city it would be indistinguishable from a city in america. japan was protective

 

[Uiler]

Because with three of the leaders it directly interacts with their UU in a very positive way (ie game play elements) and in at least 2 if not 3 leaders it is an accurate characterization of their role in history (ie historical elements). So the answer to your question is, "A combination of gameplay and historical elements". I can assure you that every national, racial or cultural group could find offense with some characterization in Civ if they were thin skinned or looking for reasons to gripe.

Following up the prior post, the Chinese absolutely built, expanded and reinforced the Great Wall with the specific intention of holding out the steepe dwellers and nomads. The idea that it was built for cultural, ceremonial or decorative reasons is absurd. Just because it didn't work particularly well and has become a cultural monument doesn't change the fact that it was built for purely defensive (protective) reasons.

I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out. While Qin did build the wall for defensive reasons it is hardly the thing he is best remembered for, at least amongst Chinese. Qin was one of the least protective and most imperialistic and expansionist of all Chinese leaders. Qin was the most militaristic and one of the most aggressive societies to ever exist in Chinese history.

There are definitey protective military conquerors in Chinese history but Qin is not one of them. Take for example a true Chinese protective conqueror, Yue Fei. He is most famous for the fact that by the age of 30 he had practically driven the Jin out of N. China. However he was betrayed by his own country, the S. Song and died a tragic young death. According to legend his mother branded a saying about being patriotic on his back and he made a vow not to drink alcohol until he had driven the Jin out of N. China. He wrote a famous poem talking about getting back the homeland from the Chinese invaders. "The shame of Jin Hong has not yet been washed away. The officials and people still hate the embarrassment. Let us ride our chariots to Ho Lan pass to drive away the invaders." His lonely and tragically unsuccessful fight against the Jin invaders is what defines his historical memory. Qin is best remembered for conquering the other 6 countries, invading what is now known as S. China and centralising power. Oh and the burning of the books and burying alive of the scholars. If he never built the Great Wall he would be equally as famous as he is today. Actually whenever I heard about Qin and the Great Wall as a kid it was most often in connection to stories related to his tyranny e.g. the one about the wife crying until Heaven showed mercy on her and collapsing the part of the Wall where her husband's body was buried or about the sheer number of people who died building the Wall. The protective aspect of the Wall, in relation to Qin himself, was hardly ever mentioned. However the suffering of the people in building the Wall was mentioned a lot. The point is, even with his most "Protective" thing he did, the Great Wall, his personal relationship with it is more remembered, in the popular imagination at least, in connection to tyranny than defense.

I don't particularly mind Mao or Tokugawa or the Korean leader being given the Protective trait though. But Qin as Protective...For one thing it completely screws with the mental image I gained of him growing up, reading Chinese history, listening to Chinese stories from my grandparents and watching Chinese historical TV shows and movies etc. as this great Imperialistic conquereor that caused other countries to quake in their boots in fear. This guy didn't have opponents, he had victims. It's like giving Napoleon or Alexander protective. It's just...wrong. Who is this Protective First Emperor who was mostly focused on defense? I don't know this guy. He's not the Qin Shi Huang-di I grew up with. Where the hell did the Greatest Conqueror in Chinese History go?

 

[meatwad4289]

You can't buy things until you give women the right to vote! I can only assume this is some sort of "shopping" mentality!

Religion becomes obsolete with the discovery of Scientific Method.

Free Speech and Free Religion become available with Liberalism, showing that Conservatives are obviously against these things.

Only Fascists would build Mt. Rushmore.

Do I need to go on? It's easy to find sterotyping and bigotry in anything if you're trying to, whether it's there or not.

I never thoguht about it like that lol..
Best government for an Empire is Communist.

 

[MqsTout]

For you discussers I have the following reasons why the East Asian and the English (at least with Churchill) got protective:

"Archery and Gunpowder units receive Drill I and City Garrison I automatically
Double production speed of Walls and Castle"

First protective does mean obviously the defense of their cities. No doubt the Asian peoples are remarkeable in those terms as well as Churchhill is. Second this trait is not purely defensive. Above all it strengthens archers, rifles, infantrists as well. Meaning: The longbow, cho-ko-nu, the red-coat etc. pp., they all have drill I with their leaders, with a barracks drill II and soon drill III, maybe IV against some barbs.

Which means that protective also makes strong attacking (and defending) archery and gunpowder units. And who does not know the power of the English Longbow or skill of the Chinese bowmen (movies )? Whereas you cannot say for other civs/cultures that they are world-wide know for there superior archery, rather for their imperialistic behaviour or their sophisticated bureaucracy or their traders...

I think it is just that easy and has few to do with "hey they're all protective" because they're all the same great isolationists. Though that MIGHT be one aspect among others playing into this.

This is the quote to end the thread.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One Tiny Side Note: Churchill is not the only Western Leader to be Protective, Saladin is too (although he is an Asian just like Mao and Toku, but then so are the Turks, the Indians, and the Persians)

 

[SmartLittleman]

i do agree that all 4 asian civs are protective is weird and maybe stereotyped but for instance Japan, tokugawa was a great miltary leader and conquere but JAPAN itself was ISOLATED until WWII becasue of Cristian revolts in Japan from Europeans spreading Christianinty in Japan ( i dont know th excact date but at least a couple hundreds of years before WWII) so these traits can be based from the country as whole rather than just the leader

 

[AriochIV]

Folks seem to be slinging terms about in this thread with very little idea of what they actually mean.

racism : noun:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.​

prejudice : noun:

1. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
2. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.​

oriental: adjective:

1. Of or relating to the countries of the East or their peoples or cultures; Eastern.
2. Of or designating the biogeographic region that includes Asia south of the Himalaya Mountains and the islands of the Malay Archipelago.
3. Lustrous and valuable: oriental pearls.
Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental meaning “eastern” is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.​

Referring to Asians as "Orientals," that is, as "Eastern", is currently out of fashion and arguably reflects one's Western-oriented point of view, but that can hardly be accurately called racism. To have a localized point of view is not to be equated with irrational suspicion or hatred, or causing detriment or injury to a person. Anyone here who claims that they do not have a localized point of view based on their own origins is a liar.

To suggest that the assignation of the "Protective" trait -- which is a very powerful and respectable game trait -- to all the Asian civilizations in the Warlords expansion represents hatred of and injury to the Asian cultures is utter freaking lunacy.