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Firaxis stereotyping Orientals

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by gettingfat, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. Alraun

    Alraun Warlord

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    The reason Asians prefer "Asian" has nothing to do with racism. It's because Orient means "East" implying that Europe is the center of the world. Of course, by this same reasoning we should find a new name for China. ;)
     
  2. Koelle

    Koelle King of Kings

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    China and America have never been friends. China didn't support Vietnam not because it was America's friend but just because that no one supports his non-friend.

    Another guy who knows about neither Korean nor its leaders. I'm wondering if Firaxis doesnt know anything about Korea as well and Korea was just picked as default

    Unfortunately, they were not always successful when facing real warlords. One of them, located not too far away, was Vietnam. They, the Vietnamese, defeated Mongols troops total 3 times. And here is the Warlord:

    Another Warlord Vo Nguyen Giap, who doesnt know him and the Siege of Dien Bien Phu that practically ended the Colonial Era - one important feature of the next expansion?

    And everyone knows Ho Chi Minh and his traits:
    - Protective: Vietnam has been almost continiuosly at war for more than thousand year and still survives. its Longbowmen and Crossbowmen made life difficult for the mighty Chinese and Mongols for periods and you American know than anyone else about the Uncle Ho's gunpowder units aka Vietcong, don't you? :crazyeye:
    - Philisophical: Alphabet was already in use in Vietnam around the 3rd century BC when Korea and Japan were still being barbarians. Vietnamese own alphabet - Chu Nom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Nom - was founded later in the 10 century AD but still 500 years earlier than the equivalent korean version. Modern day Japan is still using a modified Chinese alphabet. More about see http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=chinese_letters or my attachment. Vietnamese Van Mieu aka Temple of Literature was founded in 1070 in Hanoi and the first ever national university was established within it in 1076 - one of the oldest universities in the world if i'm not competely wrong. The university functioned for more than 700 years, from 1076 to 1779. During that time, 2,313(!) doctors graduated. Crazy number! It's a kind of Oxford University and the likes and Korean Sewon is a joke compared to ithttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Literature
     

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  3. dc82

    dc82 Prince

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    Again, you're missing my point - you can look at how the OED defines things, but there's also a big difference on how words are used on the streets, whether it be in England, the U.S., Hong Kong or wherever. The fact of the matter is, at least in a good portion of the United States, a good number of people will find the word choice of "Oriental" to be at least questionable. Whether you agree with it or not is your choice, and at the end, it's a matter of your wisdom on whether or not you find it appropriate enough to use the word or not. There are plenty of similiar cases in English - there's a good number of slang that can be appropriate in one English speaking country that can be offensive to another - whether that be "bloody," or a slang to cigarettes.

    Now the problem especially comes since this whole topic is about racial sensitivies to begin with - that Firaxis supposedly was stereotyping, or reducing certain civ's into certain traits that one found racial or insensitive. Given this whole topic, it seems as if some who have responded in this thread find it funny that the person who has brought up this issue stepped on a similar shoe by using a word that others can find insensitive, just as this person found the stereotyping of civs by Firaxis insensitive in the first place.
     
  4. dc82

    dc82 Prince

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental

    There is racial considerations for why Asian is prefered over Oriental, at least in the United States. Again, whether or not you agree with it, use it, etc. is your own perogative. The fact is that there are people who do agree with the thoughts listed in the link. But hey, it's a free world, you can choose to use whatever language/choice of worsd you want - just accept whatever consequences (if there even is any) that may arise.
     
  5. Koelle

    Koelle King of Kings

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    If that's your logic, I would say tiny Palestine is more important than Da :)lol: )Han Min Guo
    correct me if i'm wrong, but has Korean war always been mentioned as the forgotten conflict http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/koreaforgottenconflict/index.html
    And Cold War politics shaped and affected the Korean peninsula, not the other way around

    like this guy?
    http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=Korean+scientist+Hwang+Woo-suk+cheats&meta=
    I found 711 artikels about him :goodjob:
    Pardon me, what? After Irad down, Korea is the only root of all evils today
     
  6. dc82

    dc82 Prince

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    That's your opinion, which I'm not discounting. But I think again, it does back that Korea is at least worthy of consideration.

    I don't disagree that Cold War politics affected the Korean situation - but at the end, it still took place in Korea and because of Korea and the outcome, it did heavily influence world politics - whether or not it is acknowledged is another question.

    Okay... your point being? One bad egg doesn't spoil the bunch. Does Floyd's doping charge mean all American athletes are cheaters? Does Castro mean that all Cubans are evil? Either way, Korea is still definitely one of the leaders in research, not just in biochemistry, genetics, but also in semiconductors, electronics, etc. It is also prob. one if not the most wired countries in the world.


    I don't even understand what your point is. But either way, what goes on in the Korean peninsula today - the relationship mess between N. and S. Korea, China, the U.S., Japan, etc. is rather important in today's politics.
     
  7. Koelle

    Koelle King of Kings

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    I don't like war but if you think war could change the importance of a country Vietnam war is much much more important than Korean war. it actually changed the new world order while Korea is still a unsolved problem
     
  8. Aarvaead

    Aarvaead Chieftain

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    Get over yourself. 1) It is a game. 2.) My wife is Chinese and I have spent years teaching ESL to Chinese students; most of which are still friends. If you take a close look at Mao's financial policies and certain incidents (which have been confirmed) of tanks with students or newspaper writers being "silenced", I think you have to concede that he IS protective. Furthermore, if you wish to continue holding a political discussion or making slanderous remarks, please do your homework and/or go to a political website to debate it.
     
  9. Alraun

    Alraun Warlord

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    "The neutrality of this article is disputed."

    When a Wikipedia article has that label, it's there for a damned good reason.
     
  10. Pantastic

    Pantastic King

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    Except that the only stereotyping he mentioned was from what he interpreted the word 'protective' to mean when describing a leader trait. I'd say that's a complaint about the word; his whole 'isolationist' bit wouldn't have anything to hang on if they called the trait "engineering and super archers" instead.
     
  11. darkedone02

    darkedone02 The Suggestor

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    If firaxis is making false historic things, then how about someone make a little add-on to the game that replaces every false thing into a true thing? like fix all the civilopedia and put in real historical info
     
  12. dc82

    dc82 Prince

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    Whether or not the article is slanted, it still does show that the situation exists. And at the end, that's the point.
     
  13. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    Yes, this set off my irony e-meter as well. :)
     
  14. Rule Brittania

    Rule Brittania SAFC Supporter

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    I'm going to back to something said a while ago,the japanese were protective and at one point banned all foriegn ships from coming into japanese harbours for fear of other ideas taking over thier unique culture, in the end that stoped at look at japan now. if you went to a japanese city it would be indistinguishable from a city in america. japan was protective
     
  15. Uiler

    Uiler Emperor

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    I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out. While Qin did build the wall for defensive reasons it is hardly the thing he is best remembered for, at least amongst Chinese. Qin was one of the least protective and most imperialistic and expansionist of all Chinese leaders. Qin was the most militaristic and one of the most aggressive societies to ever exist in Chinese history.

    There are definitey protective military conquerors in Chinese history but Qin is not one of them. Take for example a true Chinese protective conqueror, Yue Fei. He is most famous for the fact that by the age of 30 he had practically driven the Jin out of N. China. However he was betrayed by his own country, the S. Song and died a tragic young death. According to legend his mother branded a saying about being patriotic on his back and he made a vow not to drink alcohol until he had driven the Jin out of N. China. He wrote a famous poem talking about getting back the homeland from the Chinese invaders. "The shame of Jin Hong has not yet been washed away. The officials and people still hate the embarrassment. Let us ride our chariots to Ho Lan pass to drive away the invaders." His lonely and tragically unsuccessful fight against the Jin invaders is what defines his historical memory. Qin is best remembered for conquering the other 6 countries, invading what is now known as S. China and centralising power. Oh and the burning of the books and burying alive of the scholars. If he never built the Great Wall he would be equally as famous as he is today. Actually whenever I heard about Qin and the Great Wall as a kid it was most often in connection to stories related to his tyranny e.g. the one about the wife crying until Heaven showed mercy on her and collapsing the part of the Wall where her husband's body was buried or about the sheer number of people who died building the Wall. The protective aspect of the Wall, in relation to Qin himself, was hardly ever mentioned. However the suffering of the people in building the Wall was mentioned a lot. The point is, even with his most "Protective" thing he did, the Great Wall, his personal relationship with it is more remembered, in the popular imagination at least, in connection to tyranny than defense.

    I don't particularly mind Mao or Tokugawa or the Korean leader being given the Protective trait though. But Qin as Protective...For one thing it completely screws with the mental image I gained of him growing up, reading Chinese history, listening to Chinese stories from my grandparents and watching Chinese historical TV shows and movies etc. as this great Imperialistic conquereor that caused other countries to quake in their boots in fear. This guy didn't have opponents, he had victims. It's like giving Napoleon or Alexander protective. It's just...wrong. Who is this Protective First Emperor who was mostly focused on defense? I don't know this guy. He's not the Qin Shi Huang-di I grew up with. Where the hell did the Greatest Conqueror in Chinese History go?
     
  16. meatwad4289

    meatwad4289 Prince

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    I never thoguht about it like that lol..
    Best government for an Empire is Communist.
     
  17. MqsTout

    MqsTout Warlord

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    This is the quote to end the thread.
     
  18. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    One Tiny Side Note: Churchill is not the only Western Leader to be Protective, Saladin is too (although he is an Asian just like Mao and Toku, but then so are the Turks, the Indians, and the Persians)
     
  19. SmartLittleman

    SmartLittleman Chieftain

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    i do agree that all 4 asian civs are protective is weird and maybe stereotyped but for instance Japan, tokugawa was a great miltary leader and conquere but JAPAN itself was ISOLATED until WWII becasue of Cristian revolts in Japan from Europeans spreading Christianinty in Japan ( i dont know th excact date but at least a couple hundreds of years before WWII) so these traits can be based from the country as whole rather than just the leader
     
  20. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    Folks seem to be slinging terms about in this thread with very little idea of what they actually mean.

    racism : noun:
    1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
    2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.​

    prejudice : noun:
    1. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
    2. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.​

    oriental: adjective:
    1. Of or relating to the countries of the East or their peoples or cultures; Eastern.
    2. Of or designating the biogeographic region that includes Asia south of the Himalaya Mountains and the islands of the Malay Archipelago.
    3. Lustrous and valuable: oriental pearls.
    Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental meaning “eastern” is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.​

    Referring to Asians as "Orientals," that is, as "Eastern", is currently out of fashion and arguably reflects one's Western-oriented point of view, but that can hardly be accurately called racism. To have a localized point of view is not to be equated with irrational suspicion or hatred, or causing detriment or injury to a person. Anyone here who claims that they do not have a localized point of view based on their own origins is a liar.

    To suggest that the assignation of the "Protective" trait -- which is a very powerful and respectable game trait -- to all the Asian civilizations in the Warlords expansion represents hatred of and injury to the Asian cultures is utter freaking lunacy.
     

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