Firaxis stereotyping Orientals

[bioelectricclam]

I think that there are currently worse forms of Asian stereotyping in the industry. This is pretty mild comparatively.

The funny thing is...the article goes into how this guy is writing about the asian stereotypes in warcraft 3...and right next to it is an advertisement for warcraft 3. Gamespot may not have class, but they got hutzpah.

 

[Zhahz]

It's a game, get over it. If you don't like it, mod it, but don't start throwing unfounded 'racist this, racist that' comments about...

OMG. The truth comes out!

 

[dh_epic]

Protective, to me, is similar to Aggressive but with a key difference. Saladin, for example, is Protective, and he did a lot of conquering. But he did it under the guise of unifying territory, and holding things together afterwards. In that sense, Qin Shi Huang and Saladin make perfect sense as Protective guys.

I'm not sure why Protective seems like such a racist thing to say. Truthfully, all these traits involve stereotyping. Fortunately, they are given to the leaders, and not the people themselves.

Just imagine what would happen if we gave religions traits.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Consider Qin and Mao's "Protective" as pre-emptive defense... it enhances their UU... and its also a Trade bonus in Warlords (Castles get +1 Trade Route in Warlords)

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I think it has nothing to do with racism towards Asians and everything to do with only a passing knowledge of history on the part of the people who designed the game.

Since what little the general population knows about Asian history is in regards to the relative ease with which the western countries came to dominate it and the isolationism that has been offered as an explanation, naturally, that's going to be the tilt in the game.

Racist? No. Ignorant? Probably... no more racist than the other historical inaccuracies in the game.

 

[Koelle]

Mao did not befriend Americans does not mean he was an isolationist. It's just his friends were Russians, North Koreans and Vietnameses. He was a philosopher, and he really tried to implement communism, so why take away his philosophy and organized traits? About, Wang Kon, he wasn't even the greatest leader in Korean history. I don't know why he was picked.

You're wrong. Mao didnt have that many friends. His only close friend was North Korea and he did also befriend some other isolationists in Albania and Yugoslavia and that's all. Ask the Mongols, Tibetan, East Turkestan (in modern day Xinjiang) they will tell you one of his trait should be expansive. About Korea, Korea doesn't have any great leader that is popular outside Korea so if it were Park Chung Hee, Sejong or whatever, nobody would know their traits anyway. And Korea shouldnt have protective trait. It's true that there are still Korean states (not only 1 but 2 states) but the fact is they became vassalstate everytime anyone invaded them. Creative maybe? But Phi/Cre combo means that Wang Kon would replace the old good Freddie and that would be too powerful for such a small civ

 

[dc82]

Well China under Mao was friends with the USSR, at least for a bit. By the 50s, ideological differences did drive them apart - so much so that China then turned to the U.S. instead. Actually the love triangle between the three is a really interesting but also vital turning points of the Cold War.

It was a different world then - China allied with Vietnam and North Korea (as well as other Soviet-allied nations - such as Pakistan, Cuba, etc.) at times also because of their communist ideologies, although the "friendships" were superficial at best. However, there was a push for China to move out of isolationism and to the international scene.

The only real bulk of Chinese isolationism was right after Zheng He's voyages, when Confucian court officials urged the emperor to stop interacting with the outside world, as it was too uncivilized (opposite mentality of Europe, where they conquered those they found uncivilized). From then until the European conflicts, notably the Opium Wars, China stayed in isolationism. Japan followed a similar path, although after seeing Europeans plow through Asia, they quickly changed their stance to adapt and counteract against European influences.

 

[Armorydave]

From a gameplay perspective they all make perfect sense with the possible exception of Japan. Since this is a game, that is my only concern. I hardly consider the shopping mall to be the definitive building of american culture but it doesn't offend me that Firaxis made that choice for our UB. OMG, Firaxis is pedaling the stereotype that Americans are nothing more than reckless consumers, devoid of social concious and determined to strip the world of all its resources in order to satisfy their endless lust for trivial conveniences!!

Some people spend too much time looking for reasons to be offended.

 

[EmmEnnEff]

I think that there are currently worse forms of Asian stereotyping in the industry. This is pretty mild comparatively.

As the comments section outlined, the guy's crying Chicken Little.

 

[gettingfat]

I'm surprised when I come back from work and see this becoming such a long thread.

To clarify, I'm not a politically correct freak. As mentioned before, IMHO there are different levels of racism or stereotyping. To me the use of mild form of stereotyping is sometimes a necessary evil. Marketing strategy is often based on stereotyping. Many social policies are drafted assuming a certain target group behaving similarly and this involves stereotyping. When we put "traits" on a certain civ to reflect a perception this is also some form of stereotyping.

I also usually don't care much about the wording and terminology except in formal writing. I'm aware that I'm typing English so to a certain extent I have to compromise.

That said, I challenge some of these perceptions because I believe they are not historically correct and for some reasons they keep perpetuating. This is not a crime to me, but this is annoying. Why all four so-called East Asian leaders are tagged with the protective label?

It is not whether a trait can describe a particular leader, it's whether this trait reflects the most significant contribution or achievement of this leader and whether other traits fit better. As I said, almost every leader at some point did something to protect their country. However, Qin is known by all Chinese as a conqueror, an emperor, an aggressor, a iron-fist ruler, not a defender. Imperialistic, charismatic, aggressive, organized are traits all suit him better than protective. Mao is more known for his achievement in driving the Nationalist Party to Taiwan and taking over China, and implementing his crazy philosophy to essentially restructure the whole China, and using his personal charisma to achieve whatever he wanted. Protective may suit Tokugawa, but I'd like to know why Japan gets only 1 leader, and why there is no Wonder of Japan origin (for example, Edo Castle). As I said, I'm no expert of Korean history, so I'll hold my comments on Wang Kon.

The powerful archery of ancient Chinese has been reflected in the properties of CKN, giving them the protective trait to reinforce this feature is basically a redundancy.

As a Chinese living in N. America, in my job I never like being automatically perceived as a "reliable nice guy who holds his ground well", because the result is almost every time early in my career I was forced to be the tech guy in any group projects.

And games are one of the most powerful tools to perpetuate this kind of impression. Believe it or not.

 

[MisterBarca]

I don't think it was a conscious racial stereo-typing as much as Firaxis' appalling lack of historical knowledge when it comes to East Asia. The choice of Wang Kon to represent Korea alone is a testament to their ignorance.

 

[drkodos]

As if White males are not sterotyped in the US. Please. Watch some television or any other media and see how Western Euro White males are regularly emasculated on everything from sitcoms to commercials to radio.

Please.

Get over it. It's a game.

Are you telling me that the British in the game or the American are a true representation of what I am as well?

Guess what: It isn't. Thing is, I have more important things to concern myself with other than a computer game stereotyping me, and for those of you that do not, I suggest you get something more substantial in your lives to help build your self esteem instead of a game.

Just sayin.

 

[Warspite2]

Is it just a mere coincidence four Far East Oriental leaders (Mao, Qin, Tokugawa, Wang Kon) are given the protective trait in the Warlord expansion? I don't think so.

Firaxis gives them the protective trait most likely because they perceive these leaders, or more likely, the oriental people these leaders represent, as defenders and isolationists.

If you consider the leaders themselves, OK, Tokugawa adopted isolationist policy when he got old. However, Qin should not have got the protective trait. Qin built the Great Wall does not mean he's a defender or isolationist. In fact, he's the classic example of what an imperialist means - an empire builder. Mao did not befriend Americans does not mean he was an isolationist. It's just his friends were Russians, North Koreans and Vietnameses. He was a philosopher, and he really tried to implement communism, so why take away his philosophy and organized traits? About, Wang Kon, he wasn't even the greatest leader in Korean history. I don't know why he was picked.

In terms of the civs they represent, ancient Chinese were quite open-minded till mid-Ming. Tell me why there was a Silk Road (which I believe it should be made a Great wonder) to start with? Ancient Chinese (and even Chinese today) were about imperialism, high productivity, powerful economy (study showed that Chinese generated 1/4 to 1/3 of total world output till early 1800's), sophisticated bureacratic system. Giving both the ancient and modern time Chinese leaders protective trait is just not right. Except in the Edo period, Japanese were not isolationists. And where is the financial prowness of the Japanese? Their spirituality aspect? Their highly organized and stratified society?

Tokugawa was given the aggressive trait probably because Japanese have attacked the US before. Mongols leaders were imperialistic/aggressive because they attacked the Europeans. Everything is based on the EuroAmerican perspective.

When is Firaxis going to stop this crxp?

Insignificant

 

[gettingfat]

As if White males are not sterotyped in the US. Please. Watch some television or any other media and see how Western Euro White males are regularly emasculated on everything from sitcoms to commercials to radio.

Please.

Get over it. It's a game.

Are you telling me that the British in the game or the American are a true representation of what I am as well?

Guess what: It isn't. Thing is, I have more important things to concern myself with other than a computer game stereotyping me, and for those of you that do not, I suggest you get something more substantial in your lives to help build your self esteem instead of a game.

Just sayin.

Once again, if you think this is not "substantial in your life" and have "more important things to concern myself", why care to read thru this thread and spend a whole good chunk of your meaningful life to respond.

Only Jesus or people with no self esteem will allow people to keep stepping on their toes and walk away. I'm no Jesus.

I enjoy my life and think I have achieved enough, and I don't need to act like a jxrk to feel good about myself.

 

[xilr]

name any modern political leader, and put his name on the forums. Ask everyone to name what two traits he would be. Watch the CHAOS ensue. No one will agree on traits on modern day leaders, Its probably similiar inside Firaxis....

"Sooo fellas, what should Koreas traits be..."


18 different answers....


"Soo we got it narrowed down to these 6, pick your favorite 2!"

 

[Cereal Box]

If anything, I'd like to see more stereotyping. I don't care about political correctness.

 

[dh_epic]

You know, I'm surprised that someone can basically accuse Firaxis of being racist and calls Asian people "Oriental". If you're gonna be the PC police, at least be consistent.

 

[CF4L]

Man yall need to grab a cup of Jasmine and chill its not the end of the world.Im not sure if its the name of the trait or what comes with it you're complaining about but either way your all over reacting.

 

[Coligny]

I remember being impressed by the first Civs for making all Civs equals (that was new at the time). Your Zulu nation, put on equal footing with every other country, could beat the British, become an international powerhouse, and launch a spaceship to colonize Alpha Centauri. History rewritten.

In civ 4, unique units, buildings and traits are the only parts making the various civs somewhat different from each other. In other games, you may have elves, dwarves or space marines. In Civ, you happen to have known nations and historical leaders, put in a fantasy context.

Think about it: The Americans can start "history" in the neolithic, with Roosevelt as a ruler! Civ is about your fantasies at least as much as it is about history.

As for the "protective" trait of the asian rulers,

Why is it more shocking than the Americans being stereotyped with the shopping mall as their national building? Or France with having the salon "babbling" house? Or Germany with being typified as the home of the Ruhr military-industrial region, den of the panzer hordes?

At worst, the asian leaders traits could be considered historically inaccurate (I may agree, but I am not a specialist). Not racist.

The fun part is: even if corrected, some would find new reasons to complain (think: "you changed our non-euro/american leaders from pacifist and enlightened to aggressive and imperialistic! you damn racist pigs!").

 

[Captain2]

now I know this probably wont go over well but, if anyone wants my basic philosophy on things, check my sig

you cant expect too much out of a word, if I called someone a cracker, thats okay, if I call someone a *edited by cappy for sake of political correctness and all that is good and right in modern age spineless politicians*

they freak out, i get sued, civ fanatics gets sued, sid meyer gets sued, somehow a guy sitting in his Pj's in new york whos never even been to this forum gets sued

now I am by no means a supporter of racism, i actually spent most of last year making fun of a racist, but I am agianst political correctness for the simple reason that I feel it creates tension between people, besides, if your going to be a bastard about it, your not going to go look up the proper term for a race are you?