marioflag
History Addict
What about new entries in Civilopedia of Fire version?
Are there new good stories to read?
Are there new good stories to read?
"Fire" Developer Diary
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
BlazeRedSXT
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2003
- Messages
- 294
Jopa.. true, it is sort of an exploit.. but a really nice one I would hate to loose in a lot of ways. I like to alternate religions through the ages, mostly because the bonuses the various temples give far outweigh the negatives of having multiple religions in a a city... I like to think of myself, as a leader, to be a benevolent agnostic.
Perhaps a new set of religions, or perhaps civics could resolve this, especially with the polorized elements of Fire.
Civics might be the better way to go, since that would give "Atheist" leaders a little bonus(and they do need a small one, in my opinion). hhmm.. just brainstorming here off the top of my head...
something like an Alignment Empathy Civic tree, say, Good, Neutral, and Evil options, the default being based on the Civs starting alignment leaning. The options would give you a benefit or negative with other civs diplomatically, but cancel that annoying -2 for being Neutral(leaving no bias positive or negative to those in the Neutral Civic). Good sympathizers would have access to priests from Leaves, Order, or Runes religion; Evil to Overlord, AV, and Leaves; Neutral to Leaves, Overlord, and Runes. They would only be able to develope the Heroes for the religion if it is thier state religion, but could build temples and priests of any of those they sypathize with.
Maybe that would be too much for Athiest Civs, but certainly they can sypathize with an aligned philosophy and still remain religiously neutral overall, and it would restrict some of that "exploiting" by limiting they preists that Civs "allow" in thier lands, but letting those of us who prefer a more broad philosophy some access...
Another thought occured to me, perhaps restricting which religions you can convert to would make sense.. I mean, the population wouldn't just one day decide to go from Runes to AV for kicks.. there would be mad outrage and control of the empire would suffer, so maybe making the unrest period scale as you move across the alignment board, or simply requier a Civ to move one "alignment" shift per convert... maybe I am just making things overly complicated
its going to be a rough 10 day wait...
::EDIT:: I like the Idea of religious Heroes to move to the Civ with the highest amount of faith that they share if you abandon a religion.. Brilliant!
Cheers!
Perhaps a new set of religions, or perhaps civics could resolve this, especially with the polorized elements of Fire.
Civics might be the better way to go, since that would give "Atheist" leaders a little bonus(and they do need a small one, in my opinion). hhmm.. just brainstorming here off the top of my head...
something like an Alignment Empathy Civic tree, say, Good, Neutral, and Evil options, the default being based on the Civs starting alignment leaning. The options would give you a benefit or negative with other civs diplomatically, but cancel that annoying -2 for being Neutral(leaving no bias positive or negative to those in the Neutral Civic). Good sympathizers would have access to priests from Leaves, Order, or Runes religion; Evil to Overlord, AV, and Leaves; Neutral to Leaves, Overlord, and Runes. They would only be able to develope the Heroes for the religion if it is thier state religion, but could build temples and priests of any of those they sypathize with.
Maybe that would be too much for Athiest Civs, but certainly they can sypathize with an aligned philosophy and still remain religiously neutral overall, and it would restrict some of that "exploiting" by limiting they preists that Civs "allow" in thier lands, but letting those of us who prefer a more broad philosophy some access...
Another thought occured to me, perhaps restricting which religions you can convert to would make sense.. I mean, the population wouldn't just one day decide to go from Runes to AV for kicks.. there would be mad outrage and control of the empire would suffer, so maybe making the unrest period scale as you move across the alignment board, or simply requier a Civ to move one "alignment" shift per convert... maybe I am just making things overly complicated
its going to be a rough 10 day wait...
::EDIT:: I like the Idea of religious Heroes to move to the Civ with the highest amount of faith that they share if you abandon a religion.. Brilliant!
Cheers!
Kael
Deity
Not really. We will be strentching to just get the new features documented, let alone polish peices like you are talking about. Plenty of good design space for it though with the new barbarian heroes, wonders, etc.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
I like this idea. Though I think that greater periods of anarchy for switching religion in general would be a good thing to have in FfH.
R0GERSHRUBBER
Shrubber
I've never been a fan of the abusive religion changes in FFH; would it be possible to at least limit the number of priests a Civ can have from non-state religions? (Disbanding those with the least xp if necessary.)
You also might allow the Agnostic leaders to have a small number of priests this way should you find that they need a boost.
(Although I doubt the Grigori need any help at the moment, I've never understood why "adventurers" only fight on their behalf. It's a nice mechanic, but it doesn't seem appropriate to limit it to them. I wouldn't mind allowing every Civ to use the adventurer mechanic-toned down of course-and giving the Grigori a different unique feature that is better in line with Cassiel's character.)
Also, a question: As I understand, every Civ is going to make use of the Doviello/Mercenary weapon material upgrades. Is this only for melee units? How will this effect unit balance?
You also might allow the Agnostic leaders to have a small number of priests this way should you find that they need a boost.
(Although I doubt the Grigori need any help at the moment, I've never understood why "adventurers" only fight on their behalf. It's a nice mechanic, but it doesn't seem appropriate to limit it to them. I wouldn't mind allowing every Civ to use the adventurer mechanic-toned down of course-and giving the Grigori a different unique feature that is better in line with Cassiel's character.)
Also, a question: As I understand, every Civ is going to make use of the Doviello/Mercenary weapon material upgrades. Is this only for melee units? How will this effect unit balance?
Kael
Deity
Their strengths have been dropped to compensate. So an axeman used to be 4 strength but is now 3 strength (he would be 4 if you had access to copper, 5 if you had access to iron and 7 if you had access to mithril).
Im dont have a realy good feeling for how it effects unit balance. Thats what I will be interested to hear from you folks, you guys are better at that than us.
It is possible we will expand the ore model beyond melee units (I think Maniac also applies it to non-archer mounted units, which is a cool idea).
Spoiler :
Edit: nevermind in the above
(i suppose mithril is high priority for immortals, but spartiatoi aren't that great-unless you make them not require mithril, and give them a much lower than normal base strength, removing the national promotion, making them in essence, macemen+2 str +25% city attack,+1 extra combat point from mithril vs other units normal bonus. making them only slightly more expensive, hint hint)
QES
Court Jester
I think that Perpentach should perhaps get some sort of new unit in Fire - maybe "Mariachi Band?"
It will require habanero peppers to produce, and will be double strength in fire squares. They'll force other units to "dance" moving them out of their current square and moving in one random direction one tile. In this, the Mariachi band will never attack, but instead force the partying of other units.
The attack sound will be "El Son de la Negra" on trumpet.
It will be glorious,
-Qes
It will require habanero peppers to produce, and will be double strength in fire squares. They'll force other units to "dance" moving them out of their current square and moving in one random direction one tile. In this, the Mariachi band will never attack, but instead force the partying of other units.
The attack sound will be "El Son de la Negra" on trumpet.
It will be glorious,
-Qes
vyapti
Prince
Isn't that going to devalue everything else in the tech tree.
As it is, you don't need bombard units. And Offensive units have a distinct advantage because Defensive units generally don't gain much experience.
A City Garrison II Longbowman is exceptional (str 6 +70% CG II +50% City Def = Str 13.2).
It's not hard at all to get an offensive unit with 4-5 promotions. A maceman with City Attack 3 (+120%) & Cover (+40%) is common in my games. If a maceman with Iron (which is already a requirement) has a Str 8 + 160%, its effective Str 20.8 (maceman) vs str 13.2 Longbowman.
It will become a viable strategy for every civ to beeline to Iron Working (5 inexpensive techs) and dominate.
This is OK with Dovellio because it's the Civ's distinctive advantage. It's OK with Mercenaries because they're so expensive and because recruited mercenaries have no experience. I have a real fear, though, that's this is going to devalue every other strategy in the game.
Kael
Deity
A maceman has a base strength of 5 with the change. He used to be 7. So he gets 2 points taken off because its assumed he has iron (which would return him to his balanced strength of 7). Or 6 if the civ only had copper (but they could still build macemen), or 9 if they had mithril.
I don't think it plays with balance that much. If they had the required materials from the "Light" version" they will be exactly as they were before. But they do have other options now.
I don't think it plays with balance that much. If they had the required materials from the "Light" version" they will be exactly as they were before. But they do have other options now.
QES
Court Jester
I dont agree with the premise that offensive units are naturally more experianced. While it might follow strictly theoretical truths - I for one am typically a builder. And for me, my defensive units are often some of the most experianced in the game, as they've been attacked by barbarians since their inception into my ranks.
Offensive units are typically only built right before, or during a massive build up to conquer territory, and they're built for numbers more than excellance. A hero will always be highly experianced, but that's cause they're heros. They lead attacks, so this is a natural conclusion - but for standar units, and a non-agressive style of play, defensive units will be some of the most experianced.
-Qes
vyapti
Prince
Do units need to be in a city with a Weaponsmith in order to upgrade to mithril weapons? It would be nice if you needed some sort of infrastructure in order to take advantage of the weapons upgrades.
QES
Court Jester
I think this is all brilliant, but I'm curious... WHat have you given the Doviello (sp?) since this was one of the major "fun points" of playing them? They're still advantaged in not having to build buildings - but is there other "fun factors" that will replace the exclusive fun of this mechanic?
-Qes
vyapti
Prince
I never wait for them to get to my cities or to pillage. I keep a limited core 'just in case' defensive units, but my garrisoned offensive units are the ones to get experience, even in defensive mode. And an offensive unit that wins even one or two close battles has the experience to level into a city attacker.
I can only draw from my own experience, though.
Kael
Deity
QES
Court Jester
Well, lest I detract from Loki's noodling, I shall anxiously anticipate further incarnations of the Doviello.
What about something in relation to army size and city size? I mean, if most of the population (or a goodly percentage) is military in fare - perhaps the "hearty" warrior populace can produce units faster, but buildings slower. Also perhaps they should have higher healthiness, but lower food production?
I like the idea that perhaps the Doviello can ALWAYS draft units - and at smaller unhappiness and population costs, or perhaps "none" with certain civics.
-Qes
Nikis-Knight
Deity
It's not sexy, but a higher unit support per city would be effective.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
You've probably considered making the weapons upgrades require neither forge nor weaponsmith? If they can make macemen "in the field," then why not be able to get their weapon promos in the field...
Hey!!!
Just occured to me now: what if they were able to get whatever weapon promos that their foes had if they were in their land? So, if they were invading the Elohim, and the Elohim had iron, then their units would get iron weapons just for travelling there. This would also be cool.
Ah, this might also be a good idea. Not very flashy at all, but it could be a big advantage.
Perhaps when a unit defeats a foe with a higher weapon promo than they get that weapon promo. So you are stripping the enemy dead for their stuff rather than 'finding' it by walking into their borders.
Here's a crazy idea for the Doviello which might be a little too complex, but anyway: since they're supposed to be Barbarians, it makes sense to make their pillaging more meaningful. So how about if they pillage a mine on some resource, they have access to that resource for x rounds? Meaning a doviello player with enough money in the bank can raid enemy territory, pillage an iron mine, and quickly upgrade a bunch of units.
[edit] two more crazy ideas, but these may apply to the Doviello as well as the Clan of Embers (not sure what THEIR special thing is; they're not the only civ to have a leader with barb and cheaper warriors alone can't be their thing).
(1) WAR PARTY. New unit, should be about axemen str at greater cost. The purpose of the war party is not fighting other units but to win a war by attrition. The war party has one main function: UNLEASH. When you press that button, the unit DISBANDS, but while doing so it pillages EVERY improvement in a 3x3 radius (maybe giving you only xx% of the normal money?); if a unit is within this radius, it is damaged (maybe even collateral damage to a stack), and if a city is within the unleash radius, random things happen: either the city defense is lowered, or a unit within the city is hurt, or maybe some food is lost (leading to starvation if they push the city under 0 food). The idea is that you tell your men to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war, to speak with the bard. They will spread out and steal what they can't eat, eat what they can't burn, and burn what they can't pee at.
(2) Create Barbarian city. Optional usage of the settler unit: instead of creating a new city for the player, it founds a barb city which proceeds to pump out units. Of course if you have a barb leader, and while you're still at peace with the hairy men from the north, this is a Good Thing. Lateron, not so much.
Finally, one idea I haven't quite thought through yet: how about making the Doviello (and maybe the Clan as well) another negative cultural warrior? (next to the Balseraphs, of course) The idea is this: whenever the HORDE razes a city (and at least the Clan guys are both ScoEar), this sends a cultural shock through the country the city belonged to. Depending on the size of the razed city, this could shrink the borders around the former location of the city considerably. After all, this is how Rome fell.
[edit] two more crazy ideas, but these may apply to the Doviello as well as the Clan of Embers (not sure what THEIR special thing is; they're not the only civ to have a leader with barb and cheaper warriors alone can't be their thing).
(1) WAR PARTY. New unit, should be about axemen str at greater cost. The purpose of the war party is not fighting other units but to win a war by attrition. The war party has one main function: UNLEASH. When you press that button, the unit DISBANDS, but while doing so it pillages EVERY improvement in a 3x3 radius (maybe giving you only xx% of the normal money?); if a unit is within this radius, it is damaged (maybe even collateral damage to a stack), and if a city is within the unleash radius, random things happen: either the city defense is lowered, or a unit within the city is hurt, or maybe some food is lost (leading to starvation if they push the city under 0 food). The idea is that you tell your men to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war, to speak with the bard. They will spread out and steal what they can't eat, eat what they can't burn, and burn what they can't pee at.
(2) Create Barbarian city. Optional usage of the settler unit: instead of creating a new city for the player, it founds a barb city which proceeds to pump out units. Of course if you have a barb leader, and while you're still at peace with the hairy men from the north, this is a Good Thing. Lateron, not so much.
Finally, one idea I haven't quite thought through yet: how about making the Doviello (and maybe the Clan as well) another negative cultural warrior? (next to the Balseraphs, of course) The idea is this: whenever the HORDE razes a city (and at least the Clan guys are both ScoEar), this sends a cultural shock through the country the city belonged to. Depending on the size of the razed city, this could shrink the borders around the former location of the city considerably. After all, this is how Rome fell.
