First 20 K Deity win?

True, but I think a direct expansion with at least two cities pumping workers into the 'main' city would be highly beneficial and far more feasible with an Agr. civ. Religious isn't that great on Deity for reasons I've outlined and you can probably get a four-turn anarchy often enough. I'll look into it, though. Certainly Colossus and SoZ you can probably build by hand with the right map, and you should still grab others. I'm curious about your 'no barb's' option, as it prevents huts which could be of great value to you. At Deity, if you can grab Myst. from a hut Poly. could produce a SGL, as well as Monarchy. Assuming Ivory as a preq for continuing, you'll have MAth. and be able to have good chances at begin first to both Const. and Curr. Good civ choice, it's handy that the Mongols and Zulus have the same traits. You could consider choosing Rome and Greece/India, though or go back to Hittites and pair them with Arabs or Russians. Even France and Egypt/Persia would be considerable, as Alph. and Masonry are the most expensive first tier techs and you would have a good chance to be first to Myst or IW, depending on whether you have a Rel. or Sci. civ against you. Seeing as you won't be likely to take a Com/Sea/Ind civ for yourself, you're probably not gonna be first to Math. or Writing anyway, so you may as well try to trade for it. Byzanines would be interesting civ to play too, with its coastal bonus and cheap harbour, plus starting with Alph. for Writing and Curraghs. Just some food for thought ;)
 
Spain. For a 'regular' Deity 20k game, superior choice.
With regular I mean standard map, 7 random AIs, no early SGL as must-have. Good start, given.

Why? Because it is pretty hard sometimes to get hold of CB if you're not REL, and that hurts more than the Anarchy period. While you will always able to trade for BW.
So, extremely early Temple+Colossus+MoM+GLib+Sistine are sufficient to win, but also those wonders are strong enough (compared to Oracle, ToA, HGs) to also ensure your survival...
The really interesting thing for those games is to not loose to a launch or an AI reaching Dom; requires some diplomacy skills. And, smart resource management - make sure no AI has Alu+Uranium, or Rubber+Oil.

Oh, and you forgot the Heroic Epic as another cheap 4cpt wonder.
 
Ah I see your point punkbass.
At first I thought you mean, play the game as usual, expanding and all, and then when you have achieved dominance, switch to 20K.
As I said I think this will give a later date.
What you are suggesting is a small tweak to improve performace.

I have thought about it and the thing is, in with my map settings (which I think is best for high difficulty), you get very crappy terrain, and often not even a good 2nd city spot, let alone a third one.
OF course you could always restart even more often...
And even if friendlier settings, the effects would have to be explored...

Now about barbs, I dont know if you remember our discussion about this on the other thread, but having huts greatly distrub even the chance of the Masonry SGL.
Remember it took me almost a 1000 start just to get him.
If you want the AI not to get Masonry thats maybe *1.5, if you want to get a tech from a hut, and another SGL straight away were talking what *20 at least?
You nearing the 50 K starts ranges...

I dont understand why you think I wont be first to Writing.
In my deity game, I was first to all Ancient Age techs, except Pottery, Warrior Code, Horseback Riding, The Wheel, Iron Working, Mathematics and Map Making
(Well I cant be sure of that, but almost certain)
Thats the whole point of using my crappy map settings.
On Deity, I actually dominated the AIs on research from the Start.
If you check, by the time they got out of Ancient Age (one of them actually never got out), I was halfway in the Middle Age.
So I dont need to shoot for just a couple quick techs for early SGLs, I actually rush republic, and then am counting on the number of techs to get me SGLs.
Now, as I said, I have never played SID, so I dont know how large the difference is, but I think with a LITTLE more luck, something similar could be achieved.


Now Doc, I will take your word for it, because I agree my games are far from regular Deity 20K games, so I dont know what would be best in that case.
Now, what do you mean I forgot Heroic Epic?
I did not built it in my game, because I never got a leader, because I didnt even have a military until near the end of Middle Ages, and fought under 10 battles total.
I would of course had built it if I could :)

I am starting to try some starts on SID, so depending on luck I will be posting back with some news within a couple of weeks :)

(Btw I'm a bit lazy, but could someone summarize the important differences between Deity and Sid?, Ill see if I can find them in the meantime)
 
What I could find : even more units (not that great a difference for me, hopefully).
One extra settler, so faster expansion, and earlier start on first wonder, probably biggest difference for me.
1-turn anarchy, not that big a difference from 2-turn I think
Cost from 6 to 4, that's basically a 50% production bonus (does this apply on food and commerce also?), huge difference, they might beat me to Oracle if Im not lucky.
Thats only a difference for the start I think though.

Although the crazy number of units is starting to make me think that maybe in fact it IS a good thing if both AIs are on the same island for this, although in the long-term its a small problem, it helps incredibly for the start.
 
Well, there is already a big difference between Sid and Deity.
the tech pace is awful at Sid.
While at Deity, I could time masonry almost exactly with my settler (right after my temple), now this is impossible, so I will have to rethink my opening moves, wheter I rush Colossus first or what not...

right now Im thinking Temple, Settler, Warrior, Warrior, Colossus, while doing a min run on Masonry.
I should be getting Masonry pretty close to Colossus, my 2nd city will have pumped a lot of workers, and I will have some gold accumulated...

all in all, its looking a lot harder than I thought :)
 
Now Doc, I will take your word for it, because I agree my games are far from regular Deity 20K games, so I dont know what would be best in that case.
Now, what do you mean I forgot Heroic Epic?
Click to expand...
No, I recognized that; I meant in the discussion about best Civs/ Wonders for 20k Deity.
 
My usual technique is having trouble... so I tried using a different approach, something like punkbass suggested, but then I learned you can not get tech from a hut at Sid :) So thats not a solution either :)
 
LulThyme, saw your HoF records on 20K - quite impressive :goodjob:
I'd say in Sid, you'll have another problem - noone lets you near a wonder -
If they know a tech, then the wonder would have been planned yesterday, and built at around noon, if not earlier.. :crazyeye:

I do suggest trying an educated go-for-it for some ancient wonder, but even for this, it looks to me like the AIs should be on small.. tiny islands full of marsh :/

I'm as interested as you are in building Sid wonders, but haven't got there yet :P
 
Well, I do play on archipelago with 80%, with arid cold for an extra serving of tundra.
It sometimes work, sometimes even their capital cant go higher than 4 pop... :)
Although thats usually enough to beat my Capital lol.
Im starting to think maybe having a small island is not helping me on the short term, since they finish their expansion quicker, so that encourages them to start wonder -building.
Im a newbie at Sid so I dont know.
But suppose they had space for 7-8 cities on their island, would they wait a bit more to start on Colossus say than if they are maxed at 4 cities (might as well say maxed at start :) )
 
Ok.
I have been trying a few things on Sid 20 K.
Since my strategy is still changing a lot, I don't want to explain everything, but I have got a few questions maybe some ppl can help me with.

Right now, a big part of my strategy relies on the AIs having the latest possible date for the Colossus.
With my current settings, this is usually 2390-2190, and just a little improvement on that would help me a lot.
I am using arid, cold, 3 millions years, archi, 80% water.
And Mongols and Zulus.

I want to know what you think I could change to make them build the Colossus even 2-3 turns later on average.
For example do you think arid hot would be a worse short term environment?
Or maybe even wet (there are no rivers on 80% tiny archipelago, so this increases jungles and marsh I guess, reduces desert and tundra or whatever)
What about the fact that they start with Pottery.
Im not exactly sure how the bonuses work on Sid, but Ive noticed their cities grow very fast sometimes on the F11 scree, and I wasnt sure if they were joining workers or whatever, or had granaries, in which cases taking civs that dont start with Pottery might slow granary building by a few turns, and slow their wonder building in turn....


What do YOU think?
 
Stacking the AI deck is definitely one way to go. The most effective hammer you can have on the early AI tech pace would be to have all the AI start with the same techs so they can't trade. I'd personally aim towards the lower half of the tech tree, which would not only avoid Pottery but keep them a little further from Philosophy.

As far as traits go, if there's no rivers, Ag civ's probably wouldn't matter, as only river/lake cities get the extra food in the city square in Despotism. You probably want to avoid Seafaring civs though. That should (if only slightly) decrease the chances of an AI starting near a coast. It might mean a few more turns before they can start Colossus.

On a side note, there seems to be a lot of demand in the Mapfinder thread for Ivory to be added to the report in the next version. If it happens, it should make 20k maps quicker to find for those that use SoZ as part of their strategy.
 
Well I dont understand german but ill see if I can follow along...
Nope not enough screenies.
On the other hand, my first try as a new civ, the bizantines will probably give me victory
Im in 1430 or something with about 10K culture, expect to win before 1900 I guess.
I was able to get Colossus, Great Library, MoM, SoZ, Great Wall, Sistine, Js Bach, Copernicus, Shakespeare up to now... iwth just one SGL near the middle of middle ages
and a crap starting location (17 shield until ind age...)
We are just starting Industrial Age, and the only 2 coals on are big AI islands, so Im pondering what to do at this point


SO its not as hard as I thought.
A few tries with the Bizantines could yield a 1850 win at least I think, with an early SGL and a good starting position (Ivory seems to be necessary for a good date).
 
Small summary of dark_prophet's game:
Carthage, small (!) 80% water 'pelago, OCC, random opponents.
The start: River, 2 grassland wines, 2 cows, 1 ivory just outside the borders, lots of BGs.
The crucial thing was that no AI started at the coast, so he could get the Colossus; then SoZ, Lighthouse (remember, no other coastal capital), MoM (first for Philo), HGs, GLib, Sisitine, Bach's. That was it for wonders.
Bought his neighbor (India) to protect him; worked well, except that India was in sight of winning by domination or Space...
 
If you go for Colossus first, you should be able to beat the AIs to it most of the time.
Well in my types of maps at least.

In my game, the Ais are China and Japan.
China is stronger, but will not reach domination as I have a pretty good hold on many islands.
This is my first real Sid game, so I dont know how it will go with regards to a Diplo or Space Victory, but if I stop or almost research in the IA, the game should end before it gets too much of a problem.

Im thinking of just shelfing this game, and start anew with a good start, now that I have a better idea what to do.
I lost the race to many wonders, having only an abysmall 17 shields in capital.
A good average for this type of map is more like 21-22 (after repu) which makes a huge difference.
 
Well, sorry for the lack of update, but I was busy playing Sid.
I finally submitted a game.
Final date 1796, which could be improved, but I still think its great and wont try Sid again for some time.
Sadly I took almost no notes during game, as I had to restart dozens of time (I mean I restarted litteraly thousands of time, but I had to play till end of AA start of middle ages at least 10-12 times) because sometimes an early good game turned into disaster (make that often :) )

Anyway I used the byzantines, and my first game ever with them went very well, just a notch under my final submission but I didnt have coal and decided to restart since it seemed easy with my new strategy.
It turned out that was luck since I was only able to get 4-5 starts as good as that first one out of maybe 800...

So what was my strategy?
Tiny archipelago against zulus and mongols, with warm, arid, most water, most mountaints, no barbs.
Start on Colossus right away, and even then sometimes I would get beat to it, but Id say 85-90% of the time I can get it first.
Min run on writing.
Then send 2-3 Curraghs to meet the AIs, trade for pottery, ceremonial burial at some time.
Build Settler, Temple, Granary and some warrior in capital in some order.
2nd city is worker factory of course.

(I explain this quick, but I had to do this part at least 30 times I would say, to get a hold of the situation, if I had ivory, how were the AIs doing etc... and it involved a lot of MM, which is why it took me weeks)

By that time usually its start to rush on philo which gets litterature for free, build library, MOM and Great Library. and then go for Code of Laws and Republic.

From there it depends.It turned out that being able to build Soz was almost a requirement for these games.

Anyway in my final game, the main thing that was different was that the AIS took the longest I have ever seen to get out of their islands, on which they had about 5 cities each, which slowed them a lot in every way possible.
I still dont understand why, as the map configuration was similar to many others, but thats what happened.
That allowed me to colonize a big island with 3 luxuries (I had just ivory on home island), which eventually turned out to contain the only other coal besides my main, but that didnt matter that much.

The main thing was that the AI wasnt that fast as researching, and I was ahead most of the time starting from the MA, which allowed me to complete my wonders without trouble.

So I was able to build : Colossus, SoZ, MoM, Great Library, Hanging Gardens
In the middle ages they got Sun Tzu, Leo, and Crusades, I got everything else after that (I got one great leader, which gave me JS Bach I think).

When I entered industrial ages, I was about 5 techs in front of them, even though they had about as many cities as I had...

I stopped researching in the middle of IA after Corporation and Rep Parts, because I didnt have time reach MA anyway.

Here are my scores up to now for the record :
Chieftain 1355
Warlord 1415
Regent 1340
Monarchy 1350
Emperor 1480
Demigod 1575
Deity 1545
Sid 1796

I think I will try improve a few more of my other scores( thinking mainly of warlord and demigod), then its on to small maps :)

Anyway heres the save 4000 and 1796, Ill of course answer any questions...
 

Attachments

Ill take that as a great compliment :)
specially since I dont use Mapfinder anymore :)
Yes I have lots of time on my hand...
The thing is, since I had to actually play a lot of these games, instead of just restarting before even founding a city, in a way it was less boring (although way longer). And it got me so used to the process, that I got very good at knowing where the AIs would be in techs at certain dates, and which way they researched and all, which helped for the final game.
 
I just checked the submissions database. First 20k on Sid confirmed.

Congratulations, LulThyme! :band:
 
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