first diety-start, comment/help getting better plz

[Streiter]

Hello,
I started my first try as deity a few hours ago, and kept on logging it, in order to post it here, be critisized, and, of course, to get better

Please excuse the imho horrible english in the logfile

Files in the zip:
->helb4000.sav
--> starting file

->he_b25
--> the point I stopped till now

->log.txt
-->obvious

(And yes, I am capable of a "Your whole tactic is bulls*** )

So long, Streiter

 

[la fayette]

streiter

1) Your city sites are OK, but 3 cities is not satisfying at all. You MUST build 3 more cities IMMEDIATELY.

2) Look at the improvements you built in Trondheim:
- Barracks = no use: you are not at war and you haven't built a single unit with help of barracks (only unit in Trondheim is non vet, and you spent 40 shields = 1 settler for nothing)
- Market Place = no use: you have tax = 3, which means that your Market Place brings you 1, and the maintenance cost is also 1, which means that your Market Place brings nothing ( and you spent 80 shields = 2 settlers for nothing)
- Temple = no use: Trondheim is size 2 and there is a phalanx inside, which is enough for martial law (you spent 40 shields for nothing)
- Library = almost no use: you have science = 7 beakers, which means that your Library brings 2 beakers with a maintenance cost of 1 = not a very good bargain (don't forget that you spent 80 shields = 2 settlers to achieve that)

STOP BUILDING THAT BANK (it will cost you 120 shields, bring you 1 gold/turn and cost 3 gold/turn as maintenance cost).

3) Conclusion
You have spent 240 shields for nothing, building useless improvements in Trondheim.
Build settlers instead of improvements, and build new cities ASAP with those settlers. At deity level, when your government is Monarchy, you can have 6 cities without any happiness problem (first citizen content = blue face when pressing F4). If you build only 3 cities, your civ is half size of what it could (should) be.

4) Other problems
- Nobody is scouting: this means no hut and no chance to meet the other civs early (make peace, swap techs, trade? ...). You should have at least one unit scouting.
- One caravan staying idle in Trondheim = 50 shields for nothing; either you try to build 4 caravans in order to build an ancient wonder or you build commodity caravans and deliver them (but I wouldn't advise that just now, because there are no roads between your 3 cities and you haven't discovered Map Making which would let you try foreign trade).

 

[Smash]

Excellent critique.

Basically,in early game you should be building nothing but units.Mainly settlers.

 

[Athospd]

is it bad build a lot of cities at the start? in each city that i build, i make a settler and i make more cities, and when the capital complete your 3º settler i put a wonder to build (a pyramids or a hanging garden) and at the nearest city i make some units for desban at the capital for help to finish the wonder.... but i do not stop to make cities....

 

[funxus]

LaFayette's advice seems good (as expected).

Athospd, I usually continue to build cities until there's no more place close by to expand to. HG usually takes care of the unhappiness for a while. The SSC gets to build the wonders immediately (or after 1 defender and 1 settler if capital).

 

[geofelt]

I started the game to see what I could do. My b25.sav is attached.
I research horseback riding first for barb defense. An attacking horse is usually all you need.
After monarchy, I go for pottery to build hanging gardens. This lets you expand faster, and gives you extra trade early because of "we-love". In the sav, I will get extra trade when the temple is completed.
I built 4 cities asap.
I build a warrior first to control unrest in the city until size 2 when I can complete a settler. The settler either builds a road or founds a new city while I build a horse. The horse stays in the city for barb defense, and the warrior goes exploring. Not very fast, but fast enough.
After founding the first city, I do not tip any huts until they are within a city radius and I am guaranteed a good result(no barbs).

 

[la fayette]

geofelt

Your main mistake: you have built Marco, but it looks as if you haven't made contact with the other civs.

YOU MUST DO THAT AT ONCE

1) Swap techs with one of those who have discovered Map Making
2) Give and swap techs in order to make all the others worshipful (or at least enthousiastic) and SWAP MAPS.

With some training you will manage to get maps from anyone (don't forget it will become much more difficult later on , because you are playing MGE and the AI civs will very easily become hostile).

3) Trade!
Even if you get only a few maps, you should see a few cities overseas that you can trade with. Build at least one trireme and 2 caravans (preferably goods demanded by the city you have spotted) and send them there: early foreign trade (before navigation and invention) is very profitable, especially if you rehome your caravans in celebrating Trondheim (with some training, you will find out that, during that period, it is much better to do your research with overseas trade - and delivery bonuses - than with libraries).

Other remarks:

1) No need to wait for the temple: Trondheim would be celebrating NOW if you removed one worker (Elvis instead).

2) Build a horsie and tip those 4 huts: the danger is small if you tip on first turn, and the earlier you tip the more rewarding the result.

 

[la fayette]

streiter

Please write 'deity' 12 times in a row, like that:

deity deity deity ...

and never write diety after that

 

[Streiter]

lol, ok
deity deity deity deity deity diary deity deity deity deity deity deity deity

ok, but now a bit more serious:

I think, I'm getting the stuff with trade now... (I only played on chieftain till now ^^)

A marketplace is only useful, if I already get 4 gold, since it will add 2 gold, "consuming" one, and making 1 gold profit, am i right?

equal with the bank, added to a marketplace:
"consumes" 4 gold, doubles the gold you get, so only useful at 5 gold income?

and, as a last step:
stockmarket / bank / marketplace, consumes 8 Gold, but multiplies gold with 1.5, so my income has to be greater than 6 to make profit..

Is this right?

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Streiter
equal with the bank, added to a marketplace:
"consumes" 4 gold, doubles the gold you get, so only useful at 5 gold income?

and, as a last step:
stockmarket / bank / marketplace, consumes 8 Gold, but multiplies gold with 1.5, so my income has to be greater than 6 to make profit..

Is this right?

Yes and no. Your BASE gold income has to be that much, but remember, you will already have built the earlier improvement when considering the bank and stock exchange. If you look and see a city producing 6g and have the option to build a bank, it is not yet worthwhile* on an ongoing basis because it's really a 4g city with an added 50% for the marketplace. You will only add 2 more gold with the bank and end up losing one gold per turn.

Also keep in mind that you may be chaning your tax rate as conditions change, so what is profitable one turn may not be the next and vice-versa.

* one exception is that markets and banks also multiply your luxuries, so if they provide a strategic advantage on the luxury side (e.g., enough to start celebrations and boost productive population), then they may be worth it, even if the city is still at a lower gold levels.

 

[geofelt]

La fayette
With Marco-polo I can see what the other civs are up to now. There is no urgency to make contact. The great wall makes such contacts much easier, particularly if you are doing relatively well. The GW will be done soon.
As to the temple, an elvis will let me celebrate, but the temple will take a turn longer.
In time, the whole island will have cities. Why take the chance tipping huts and getting get a bunch of barbs? Perhaps I am unlucky, but I get barbs about half the time and it's a pain to interrupt exploring. Am I missing something where you say the earlier you tip the better the results? Before the first city, everything is good, but after?
With a good start like this on an island, a spaceship win should be a snap; conquest is always harder.

 

[la fayette]

Originally posted by geofelt
La fayette
With Marco-polo I can see what the other civs are up to now. There is no urgency to make contact.
The great wall makes such contacts much easier
As to the temple, an elvis will let me celebrate, but the temple will take a turn longer.
In time, the whole island will have cities. Why take the chance tipping huts and getting get a bunch of barbs? Perhaps I am unlucky, but I get barbs about half the time and it's a pain to interrupt exploring. Am I missing something where you say the earlier you tip the better the results
With a good start like this on an island, a spaceship win should be a snap; conquest is always harder.

Sorry, I disagree on all points:

1) There is an urgency to make contact: the sooner you start overseas trading, the better.

2) The GW doesn't make contacts easier (only helps getting peace when you are at war and losing).

3) If a hut gives you 100g when you own 15g in the early game, it's great. If a hut gives you 100g when you own 20000g in the endgame, you just don't care.

4) Conquest is often easier. Many players play conquest because they don't know how to handle peaceful growth and launching.

 

[Streiter]

Originally posted by la fayette



4) Conquest is often easier. Many players play conquest because they don't know how to handle peaceful growth and launching.

I can only agree...

My usual chieftain strategy was Fundy(0 tax, 8 science, 2 Lux. till tanks, after them ~0/6/4 till future techy, and after that 2/0/8) while conquering all

but that's impossible on deity (at least for me ), so I had to try republic/democracy, an noticed beeing this in peace way more powerful

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Why did you have luxuries in fundy? Were you celebrating your cities to get the extra trade arrows? 20% doesn't seem like it would be enough to do that.

 

[funxus]

IIRC, there's no point in having more than 50% sci in fundy, because the extra percents are wasted.

Now that you've changed your tactic, that doesn't really matter that much though.

 

[Old n Slow]

Hmmm -- Jumping from Chieftan to Deity... interesting about not stopping off at Prince or King...

I read the log, but have yet to look at either of the games -- it might be interesting to see what the first few turns would look like...

 

[Ren]

One thing: It's been a long time since I built a Phalanx; Warriors are cheaper and get upgraded by Leonardo's Workshop... Though I see that wonder as a higher priority than others might.

BTW I'm only a King player at the moment

Edit 1: Make that two things... I usually build roads before irrigation simply because it's quicker - hence you get the advantage for longer. Of course, one must vary to fit with the specific situation.

 

[Old n Slow]

I played a few turns & then looked at the other two saves. It looks like my game is in about the same stage as geofelts -- similar plan, similar layout of cities, he has a wonder ahead of me, but I cashed in the huts (for a few techs.)

Streiter -- Attached is a log of what & when I did "major" stuff. It turns out we all built Trondheim on the exact same spot -- not immediately obvious, but a very good site I think.

3700 Found Trondheim start a warrior out to search
3600 Found Kaupang on a nice river, grid to nestle in with Trondheim
3500 Discover CB
(First two cities will build a warrior each to search; then a second warrior for guard duty, then a settler each)

3250 hut = WC (off tech, hold off on huts for a bit)
3050 Discover Code -- opt for Monarchy (now continue hut hunt)
3000 Hut = 25g
2800 Trondheim creates a settler, starts Colossus
2650 hut = Nomads (better players would have this guy make a city ASAP; I used him to develop the SSC (Trondheim))
2400 Discover Monarchy; found Uppsala
2350 Hut = Feudalism (oh well, a nice tech… at a later stage.)
2300 <Revolt>
2250 Recover in Monarchy; Found Hladir
2150 Rush a settler in Kaupang
2100 Hut = HBR (Hmmm would have preferred to pick this up with trades via MPE…another oh well.)
2000 Barb Archers appear next to Uppsala (Pikeman will be finished next turn -- will he be in time?…No Uppsala razed, Kaupang rushes a horse.)
1750 Discover Trade; Trondheim reaches size three & goes into disorder; The Horse nails the wounded Archer & becomes a vet. (Other Archer & leader soon vanish)
1400 Horse is now in Trondheim, allowing the citizens to get back to work.
1250 Hladir pikeman arrives in Trondheim for guard duty, freeing up the horse.
1200 Hut = Archer (Hladir)
1050 Kaupang makes another settler, Discover Writing
975 Hladir blows up; Hut = Iron Working (that’s three free militaty techs -- can I take a hint? No, we’d rather do this the SLOW way.) Aarhus founded on Uppsala ruins.
875 Nomad finishes mining the hidden special (pheasant) with Trondheim -- starts to irrigate this to buffalo.
850 Trondheim builds Colossus & starts temple.
825 Hut = Barb Horse (who slays the wandering warrior) Found Viborg.
750 Trondheim pheasant is now a buffalo.
725 Found Roskilde
650 Discover Myst Viborg blows up (sign of playing a little to fast & careless, I suppose) (Have six cities, start some camel building action)
500 (Thebes builds pyramids; next turn, Cardiff builds the lighthouse)
425 Discover Literacy; Hmmm my first research choice is unavailable at this time, so we’ll take the gamble & start looking at Pottery (since I don’t build granaries, this is ONLY for the chance at Hanging Gardens) buy a market for Tondheim
400 Entire Rock has been searched. But with the camel building program, settlers & city growth will be a little slower.
275 Found The Udal
225 Ros blows up (we’ll need a temple here someday) Discover Pottery, start Philosophy
175 Trondheim is size 5 (making 10 shields/turn), Pop = 300K
125 Aarhus makes a silk camel, then blows up.
100 (Sioux nearly complete HG…we, however, cash in four food camels…)
75 Tronheim completes the Hanging Gardens.(Sioux abandon -- the only thing better than completing a wonder is to do so with that tag line lol)
25 Discover Philosophy, get a free tech of Wheel (a very limited selection). save attached. Opt for Republic (expect we’ll get Map, Masonry after we build Marco’s, coming soon on the horizon. Also deliver Silk top Tronheim for afew coins & beakers, our first trade route.

Geofelt, it looks like our two games have gone along similar lines so far. Any desire to continue?