First domination attempt - Immortal

[kashchej]

Hi, so I'm doing Immortal Challenge 5 (Egypt) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=494690) and I'm going for my first ever domination-based game. On Immortal I can make a science, culture, or diplomacy victory happen usually without too much trouble, and I can usually defend myself very well, but when I try to rush early military, my science ends up completely crippled!

I'm going with a Tradition opener with 3 cities by turn 45, and by turn 60 I have enough war chariots to DoW Mongolia and totally destroy them by about turn 90-100. However, by that point, my northern neighbor Siam declares war on me. No problem, usually just spearmen, warriors, and archers, I have a significant terrain advantage at my third city, I can hold them off.

This is where the problem comes in. I have puppeted the Mongolian capital, so my happiness is fluctuating around 0 where it was sustainable (I honestly just wanted the luxes near Karakorum), which makes my population growth a little low. My science is so anemic that I have to rush Education for about turn 120-130 before going machinery for XBows to fight the new Siamese pikemen, and by that point my eastern neighbors (who have been fighting each other and not me) are so far ahead of the game that there is no way to compete with them. I think the problem may be that going for the Egyptian UU instead of composites resulted in me having these totally useless soldiers by about turn 120 that really couldn't do anything more productive than dying on the front lines.

tl;dr: I am finding domination so much harder than any other victory type and I don't understand why one would ever want to do it instead of an easy science or diplomacy victory, so I think I just don't understand it at all. It takes me so long to take a single city that it just doesn't seem worth it and the happiness hit is too much for me.

 

[dragonxxx]

tl;dr: I am finding domination so much harder than any other victory type and I don't understand why one would ever want to do it instead of an easy science or diplomacy victory, so I think I just don't understand it at all. It takes me so long to take a single city that it just doesn't seem worth it and the happiness hit is too much for me.

because domination adds more action, while just building some stuff for the other VCs becomes a bit boring at some point

 

[slowcar]

Taking cities, and especially integrating them into your empire without ruining it, is kind of a challenge in and itself. If you have never done it before it is not too surprising that you look at a new challenge.

Consolidate your empire and continue from there, no need to rush into the next war if you don't feel ready. Cav+Arti will give you a full new set of toys to play with, even if you don't have highly promoted archer units.

 

[kashchej]

That's making me feel that maybe domination lies at the balance of diplomacy and science, demanding a good grasp on those elements before success is possible. I think I got discouraged when it was t150 and I saw that I was the farthest behind in science. What I should have been doing, rather than trying to push a costly war with Siam, was simply doing what I had to do to make sure that I could afford to take a new city or two and that my science was at the point at which my units could outclass theirs enough to take a city or two without much pain.

 

[Danierokon]

Actually domination is much harder in BNW, those diplo hits from capturing cities are HUGE...
Don't expect to have any friends or even if you have one/two, the friendship won't last long..
Pre-BNW I can always piss the AI off so he/she will dow me so I don't take the diplo hit, but now...

But I absolutely love domination, it is just much more exciting/challenging than other VC which you can just sit there building everything.
Yes sometime domination can be really hard if the map is dumb, things like mountain range, rough terrain(forest/jungle on hills), or wall of city states can really slow you down..

Allying with (mercantile) CS can help with your happiness issue. Also, choose your target wisely can help too, I usually go after civs with wonders like Notre Dame/Forbidden Palace, they are really really big help.

 

[kashchej]

Oof, I don't even have BNW yet. It also seems to me that, since the AI doesn't really get a military until Immortal difficulty, trying domination on lower difficulties isn't even good preparation -- why even try if on King you can amass such a science lead that you can march into a capital with cannons and gatling guns against like composite bows?

 

[Danierokon]

Text

Well you can actually try playing civs that are good at domination first, civs like Arabia,England,China,Mongolia etc can conquer cities quite effectively.
Playing these civs should let you get away with problems like "how to conquer cities" since they are just so damn good at this. That way you can focus on learning how to manage your empire (mainly happiness) while on your way to domination.

 

[kashchej]

Just tried my first game as China on Immortal, Pangaea, Standard. Korea was my ally -- lucky, they were incredibly easy to destroy and were out of the game by turn 90. Puppeted both of their cities, since their capital was sitting on two luxes I didn't have and their other city was at an incredible chokepoint for if my eastern neighbor, Arabia, attacked.
The two threats in the game were the incredibly wide (>12 cities by turn 175) Persia and the incredibly tall (40 pop capital by turn 175) Arabia. Unfortunately, Persia attacked first. With the chu-ko-nu, it's been very easy to hold off everything with absolutely no losses, but Persia keeps building cities in very well-defended locations right on my doorstep. It's become apparent to me, with how Arabia has built nearly every available wonder so far and how Persia has an enormous science lead over the rest of the world, that I really can't win, but I can survive until one of the AIs wins, which is enough for me. The Great General bonus is amazing for China and those extra citadels have saved me from ever losing more than three or so units during this game. Trying again on Emperor difficulty to see if I can actually take out more than one or two opponents.
I think where I have trouble is mid-game combat after demolishing my first neighbor. I take a break from battle until I have machinery for Xbows (after beelining Education by about t120, which feels stupidly slow to me), and around then I expect someone to DoW me so I don't have to take such a diplomacy hit for declaring war on someone's friend. I find that the crossbows and a couple of pikemen just aren't enough to take a city down. I should probably get some trebuchets for that purpose, but I think I blow the tech off for a bit while trying to rush Scientific Theory.
I might try again as China, or I might do a scientific civ like Babylon or Korea (I might even do Inca for the terrain bonus and the mountains for a defensible capital with observatory??)

 

[Cromat]

I'm in the opposite situation. I can do a domination victory but actually being the tech leader or getting culture is very difficult for me. War is the biggest advantage you have as a human. The AI are competent at building empires but they suck at wars.
Even when I want to win peacefully I end up taking everyone's capital because that seems so much easier and quicker.

Some things I find useful:

- Take care of happiness. This is the most important thing. Get a religion that gives a bonus to happiness, get the Commerce tree finisher, ally Mercantile city states, trade all of your unique luxuries, rush Factories so you get free ideology tenets and choose ones that help with happiness, build or buy happiness buildings and wonders.

- Make it a priority to ally militaristic city states. If you have a few of them allied it should be fairly easy to replenish your army. Also keeps the AI from having these units.

- Build a lot of CBs and take out a weak neighbor if there is one.

- Artillery is the point where you can start dominating. Get it ad quickly as possible and have some older siege units you can upgrade.

- Always denounce before declaring war. Don't declare war when you have an active declaration of friendship.

- If someone is close to you, hates you and has a better army than you (check with the advisor), they will probably attack. This is a good thing. Place your units well, create choke points and destroy their army, even if it's massive. On Immortal most victories against strong empires should start with you luring them into your territory and killing them. Let them come for you, then just go in and grab their capital.