First OCC 20K... and questions

[capnvonbaron]

So I just did my first 20K OCC and won, but I found it a fairly painful experience. Now, I did read the article about it in the war academy, but it doesn't answer all my questions and catered largely to C3C. I was wondering if there are any forum members that have some experience with it, particularly vanilla (I really need to upgrade to C3C )

Conditions: Regent, standard map with all default conditions, 7 random civs (drew Babs, Persians, Zulu, Iroquois [all on my continent]; French, Germans, Japanese [on the other continent], I was America. Victory came in 1936AD, about the time Joan completed the Manhatten Project. Washington ended up producing 86 culture per turn. Thankfully global tech progress was a bit slower with me back in the early IA; in normal games on regent I get Space Flight around 1750AD or so.

1) Was Lincoln of the Americans a really a smart pick? It looked good on paper, anyways...

2) I moved my settler one square off of a BG and onto a non-BG coastal tile (no river anywhere; but a big freshwater inland lake/sea). Was it smart to move him? Or is that a costly move even blowing that one turn on a 20K?

3) I grabbed very few useful huts with my two scouts. Got two fairly useless techs (wheel and mysticism), five conscript warriors, a lot of maps, and some gold. I actually started the game just intending a 20K, I didn't plan on doing an OCC until I failed to pop a settler from any of the huts... then just kinda went with it The question: Does anyone depend on goodyhut-help?

4) I obviously managed to grab a bunch of wonders.. Colossus, Pyramids, GLib, GWall, Gardens, Sistine, and Shake's; so I had a really happy city (24 !) at least. However, I had to use a GL produced in a war with the Babs to rush the Gardens (how ironic, huh ) or lose it. He was the last GL I saw in the game. I also partly did it to try and break the Gardens -> GWall -> Lighthouse -> Sun's cascade that I (prolly) would've seen. Was I better to create an army, load it with pathetic veteren AA units, build a heroic epic, and hope for more GLs??

5) Speaking of wars, EVERYONE wanted a peice of me! I doubt I went 10 turns that whole game without someone demanding SOMETHING from me, whether it be a hard-earned tech, 20 gold, or a measly territory map. Is this normal? I had a decent standing army... thank GAWD I had iron nearby or I'da been a gonner the first time I told someone to bugger off with their threats. I mitigated it some by trying to keep a negative income whenever I could to prevent GPT demands, and I found that by staying as broke as I could the AI would/could only take me for a pittance...

6) The Persians went NUTS and wiped out everyone on the continent by the(ir) late IA (except me and the french portion of old Babylon, and then only barely; I once told them to get their 20 stack of cavs and 12hp cav army to get off my lawn. Big mistake I killed the army, at least... the first army, anyways). The Babs were first to go, which was an utter surprise, as they were my main competition for wonders. The French also went berzerk and took out the Japs... I later bribed them to take out the Germans (neither was very strong tho, they'd been fighting eachother for millennia. Hannover and Izumo must have changed hands back and forth from German to Jap control and back a dozen times each) Good thing? Bad thing?

7) I was doing great tech-wise since I had the GLib... until Education. Then things got bad... I barely managed to grab Shake's, then the AI left me in their technological dust, so to speak. I staggered out of the MA and got the first tier in the IA researched (plus sanitation) before my victory. The AI was somewhere around space flight, I think. Even then, the polite French wouldn't sell me steam power for 600 gold. WTH? How do you get out of the IA on an OCC? Even at 100% science I was getting quoted at 20 turns for steam. The AI, on the other hand, seemed like it was getting new techs every 6 turns or better! At 0%, my income never topped 70 gpt. and the AI wouldn't give me the time of day.

8) One thing I never sorted out... whats the best gov't for a OCC in vanilla? I went republic -> democracy, but monarchy was oh-so-tempting...

9) I didn't go offensive with military until late in the game, just once to knock out a German city close to my borders when I told Bizzy to suck schnitzel for his demand of 28 gold and maps. Maybe I should've tried to attack some of the AI cities that were building wonders?? I don't see how it would have been feasible... I never had a good offensive military (no horses, no saltpeter until one miraculously appeared on a hill in my boundaries in the late 1700s; had to trade for everything but 'phants and iron) and barely staved off attacks with what I had even within my own borders.

SO anyways, as long as I kept appeasing/capitulating to every AI request, I survived, but not very well. My end title of "history will remember you as... Lincoln the Foolish" felt very apropos. At least Bizzy offered me a big plate of hero cookies at the victory screen... though truthfully I would've prefered one from Joan Help is welcomed! Thanks, fellow Civvers!

PS sorry for the long thread. I do that a lot

 

[TheOverseer714]

The power of Vanilla Industrious tribes was demonstrated. In every Vanilla or PTW game I have played, Industrious rules. America is not the best for 20k, they pay full price for everything. Another expansionist, Russia has cheap libraries and unis. Another Industrious, Egypt has cheap temples and caths. With no UU, America is wholly dependent on a wonder GA. Almost any Religious or Scientific tribe is better for 20k.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I think on a vanilla 20K, I'd build a lot of military and beat holy hell out of people, try to get lots of leaders. I might actually not spend many shields on wonders, just rush them.

A 1CC 20K game is rife for demands. AI demands from you when you are weak, and you will be weak.

Moving coastal is almost always smart in a 20K game. Collosus is really good.

You clearly had some bad luck - 5 civs on your continent and 2 other expansionist ones. That said, I would probably have made a settler my 3rd build if I wasn't planning on a 1CC.

 

[Spoonwood]

Regent, standard map with all default conditions

To make things as easy as possible, play archipelago.

Was Lincoln of the Americans a really a smart pick?

For an OCC, not the best for sure. I guess you didn't start out that way. In Vanilla (since Seafaring isn't around), if you want to not put out a settler (I like to do that in my empire 20k games), expnasionist works fine and America doesn't make a bad pick. Still, probably Russia makes a better pick for a 20k game with more than one city, if you don't want to put out that settler. Scientific gives you a free tech in every age, as well as cheap buildings, and you can hardly beat that. Cheap bulidings can help and all, but the free tech helps more than anything else.

I moved my settler one square off of a BG and onto a non-BG coastal tile (no river anywhere; but a big freshwater inland lake/sea). Was it smart to move him?

I'd have to see the start to see. Moving a few turns in general doesn't hurt too much.

Does anyone depend on goodyhut-help?

I don't know if I would say "depend", but it can work out quite useful. If you want to maximize goody huts say for a regular empire wide 20k (this just means non-OCC 20k), 1. if playing at a high level play archipelago so the AIs can't pop anything early on, at Regent it doesn't matter so much though 2. play expansionist, 3. consider minimum opponents... meaning 4 on a standard sized map 4. if you want the early settler pop a hut sure, but otherwise unless you really want an early tech say Bronze Working and you have your research on Writing to pick up the tech pace, pop as few huts as possible until the late ancient age. Hopefully you can pop Currency, Construction, and/or some of the later available tecs.

Was I better to create an army, load it with pathetic veteren AA units, build a heroic epic, and hope for more GLs??

I think you need 5 ciites for an army, so in a strict OCC no heroic epic. In a regular 20k game, the Heroic Epic doesn't just help produce more MGLs, it produces 4 culture per turn for a measley 200 sheilds... you can't beat the culture for the cost here... especially if the Heroic Epic gets old. So, if you have 5 cities I'd suggest building it as soon as you can.

I went 10 turns that whole game without someone demanding SOMETHING from me, whether it be a hard-earned tech, 20 gold, or a measly territory map. Is this normal?

It can be. If you ever start playing Conquests you can make things easier by turning down the aggression level. Rights of passage can make the AIs have a happier attitude towards you, which can result in greater friendliness. Then again, in an OCC they cost a lot, so that might not help much here.

I was doing great tech-wise since I had the GLib... until Education. Then things got bad... I barely managed to grab Shake's, then the AI left me in their technological dust, so to speak. I staggered out of the MA and got the first tier in the IA researched (plus sanitation) before my victory.

So, you managed the victory and congratultions! Anyways, I don't know how many OCC games where I had this exact sort of problem until I finally figured this out. Besides perfecting your trading skills, you'll usually want to research until you get to The Republic (this works out easier in Conquests), maybe shut off then if you haven't finished The Great Library yet, and then turn on research after you get the first techs from it. Then go Monotheism-Theology-Education. Yes, that will expire The Great Library and it picks up the tech pace. However, with Education you have your university in or coming soon to pick up your research rate. After Education comes Astronomy. In an OCC game, really of any sort, you want The Colossus, Cope's, and Newton's University. With skillful trading and at least these three wonders keeping up in tech becomes possible. Also, the more ancient age wonders, the better, because they provide tourist commerce since they get built so early. So, don't slow down research in the middle ages. Go straight to Astronomy first and lock up Cope's. In a 20k, after that maybe dally around for Shake's and Bach's, before Newton's, but don't slow down research. Playing as scientific and drawing monotheism can help with this. Using the "what's the big picture" trick with other scientific tribes using The Republic as trade bait and getting Theology as your free tech can help even more.

One thing I never sorted out... whats the best gov't for a OCC in vanilla? I went republic -> democracy, but monarchy was oh-so-tempting

The revolutions kill your commerce as well as halving your culture (AFAIK). With an OCC your capital has no corruption, so other than unit support I don't see how a second revolution to democracy helps. Monarchy provides less commerce than Republic. So, except for maybe a conquest OCC game, Republic, Republic, Republic. At least, it works that way in Conquests. I don't see how Vanilla would work differently.

Maybe I should've tried to attack some of the AI cities that were building wonders??

That seems worth a thought, but in an OCC either you probably have the level low enough where they won't lauch, or you have the level high enough where attacking the AI won't work, because they will crush you. I don't see a middle there, so I would say no to voluntary war in an OCC (unless going for conquest).

Your game reminds me of a game here I read about here http://www.warpcore.org/~sirian/civ3/game7.html. I wouldn't read that for good suggestions, but it's an interesting read nonetheless. In the Stories and Tales I've posted some notes on some of my OCC games. Mathias might have some good OCC notes. Microbe and Aggie had some OCC games, as well as an OCC succession game a while back.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Ha... yeah I read the article, that sounds ghastly familiar. Arty (well... cannons) kinda saved my ass, too... and one tough pikeman who took out about 8 of the cav army's 12 hp. I was down to 3 units before I could talk Xerxes into sparing my stupid, wonder-filled city. I guess maybe he respected me after that, because he didn't demand a whole lot of stuff out of me after. Or maybe they had all they needed anyways, seeing as how they owned close to 50% of the world's land.

Oh yeah -- didn't consider the 5-city army rule. Question answered

Thanks for all the pointers. Yeah I think missing out on Copernicus/Newton hurt my science big time. I think I might try it again, hopefully with better results. About the best thing I can say is it was a very quick game; about 6 hours total play time... lots of pressing spacebar

 

[Padma]

5-city Army Rule???

I think you're talking about the fact that you can have one Army per four cities. Which means that until you have 5 cities, you can only have one Army. At 5 you can have 2, at 9 you can have 3, etc.

 

[vmxa]

You won't be able to have a second army, until you have 8 towns.

 

[capnvonbaron]

oops, four... yeah still trying to remember, but its at minimum four cities per army, no? To me, one thru three cities = no armies. Pretty sure I confirmed that in my latest game when I ended up with a leader (from a warrior, no less!) and only two cities... it had the "rush construction" option when I moved him to a city, but no "create army" option. Something I never considered or have forgotton... is there a tech that one needs to create an army?

 

[Spoonwood]

Thanks Padma. My mistake. Thanks VMXA, Padma's mistake.

In order to train an army (instead of spawning an MGL and using the MGL to create an army), I think you have to have a victorious army (in existence) and you have to have completed the Military Academy (via MGL/SGL rush or hand-building it). You can only train armies from the city with the Military Academy. In order to have the potential for the Military Academy you need Military Tradition. Interesting that the AIs seem to become much more aggressive at about this stage.

 

[Padma]

You won't be able to have a second army, until you have 8 towns.

I'll take your word for it. I could easily have gotten that detail wrong. It's been a while since I actually played Civ3....

 

[capnvonbaron]

Thanks Padma. My mistake. Thanks VMXA, Padma's mistake.

In order to train an army (instead of spawning an MGL and using the MGL to create an army), I think you have to have a victorious army (in existence) and you have to have completed the Military Academy (via MGL/SGL rush or hand-building it). You can only train armies from the city with the Military Academy. In order to have the potential for the Military Academy you need Military Tradition. Interesting that the AIs seem to become much more aggressive at about this stage.

Right, I'm not talking "train" an army, I'm talking about turning a GL into an army. I figured the AI would be a lot less likely to bug you if you had a fat infantry army sitting on your capital, but there is a minimum amount of cities needed, making an OCC army an impossibility, no?

 

[capnvonbaron]

Sorry to dig this one up, but I felt like following up...

I just completed a 20K OCC and had a completely different experience. This time, I was monarch, Egypt, standard archipelago, wet/warm, 4bil. with random rivals. France, China, and Rome shared one long skinny landmass with me; Greece and Zululand had their own islands, and Iroquois and America shared an island.

In short, I managed 6 wonders, ended up producing 82 culture per turn, and achieved victory in 1926AD this time No GLs this time, so I lost out on a couple of great wonders (Bach's; Shake's) in cascades

The biggest difference: only 6 threats the entire time, and I only caved to 2. 3 ended up in war, and one actually respected my fortitude. None got more than a few dozens of gold and a map. I even took my knights on a little foray outside city bounds and destroyed two Iroquois and one Greek city that were putting pressure on my borders. The only damage done to me was by early barbs and a whole crapload of naval bombardment, although none of it was to useful city tiles (all damage was done to forted and forested roads in the 'outlands' ) I think maybe I did a little better because iron, horses, AND saltpeter all appeared in my city radius, so I could build lots of useful units up through cavalry, at least.

So, even at the higher difficulty, the experience came out to be highly positive this time. Only the Iroquois were eventually (and appropriately) destroyed by the Americans; France worked over Rome and China, but allowed them both to continue a 2-city existence through the end. Joan was the undisputed juggernaut, although she was gracious or polite with me for 90% of the game, and never threatened me for anything! She even helped me more than she knew; she destroyed Lugdunum for me, which had tried to flip to my control 6 times (each time I faithfully rebuffed, by the OCC rules), and unlocked the sweet sweet incense laying beneath the city (yay happy faces!). I still bottomed out on research in the early IA, but since there was a lack of sciency civs, the last wonder I saw built was ThEvo, and the most advanced unit was Infantry. Not even the threat of an AI space-race win. Funny, huh?

 

[Spoonwood]

I wonder if that you don't gift the AIs techs, can they usually launch before 2050 on Monarch even?

 

[capnvonbaron]

Hard to say.. I've never tried to be a tech horder, because that will usually hurt my progress as the AI trade techs among themselves. But my guess is that with sciency civs on a pangea map, yes, they'd get to launch before the manditory retire date. I might run that scenario just to see