First Opinions - Science is still the king. How to beat deity easily, no cheese.

[Nials]

Never mind, Piobmhor beat me to it

 

[Hpuk]

For example, you could implement a perma-Scholars in Residence, which would reduce tech X's cost by, say, 2% for each civ that has discovered tech X, plus another 1% for each tech researched that tech X is a prerequisite for. Scale it for map size. Also trade route beakers could be kicked up.

Techs are cheaper the more players/AI have researched them, this has been the case ever since vanilla.

 

[wetroofwoof]

I think the reformation belief tries to give people a good science victory through religion.

surely if you start next to a faith natural wonder, you can then found a religion on deity no problem. you could take piety instead of tradition (not sure how painful this is). 1 thing is for sure you need less gold so focus elsewhere. university cost 160 faith before renaissance.

 

[Cymsdale]

I think the science from trade routes could stand to be much higher than it is.

 

[Matthew.]

Rushing science techs doesn't make that much of a difference other than shaving off a few turns for record finishes. The real culprit is decent science base + RA's.

RA's are roughly the equivalent of 5 turns with no policy or porcelain. If you get 3 sets of full RA's across the map, that is 100 turns off your finish time.

I wouldn't mind further tweaks, but the system has improved greatly since vanilla release. And really, why shouldn't science be king?

 

[Dai]

I think the science from trade routes could stand to be much higher than it is.

I agree, to some extent. It feels like unless you're getting completely stomped in the tech game (or have beelined in a super focus manner and are missing a ton of techs that everyone else has because of that) and are able to link many trade routes to an advanced neighbor, the tech from trade is kind of a drop in the bucket.

It's good for there to be limits on how good the catch-up mechanisms for science are (so that investing in science feels like it's actually worth it), but I think we're really, really far away from the game being ever remotely close to that.

I feel like I'm still kind of sussing out what goes into getting the AI to want to choose you as a trading partner, since that potentially increases your science from trade considerably. (And your income, of course.)

 

[Lyoncet]

Rushing science techs doesn't make that much of a difference other than shaving off a few turns for record finishes. The real culprit is decent science base + RA's.

RA's are roughly the equivalent of 5 turns with no policy or porcelain. If you get 3 sets of full RA's across the map, that is 100 turns off your finish time.

I've actually found in my experience (n=2) that RAs aren't as much of a force now. The AI haven't been sitting on as much gold, and between that and my own slightly drier coffers, it's hard to find/trade them enough money to reliably generate RAs. anyone else have some experience on that?

I think the science from trade routes could stand to be much higher than it is.

I think what it could really use is era-dependent scaling. In about 30 turns on Immortal I managed to get a trade route with 3 GPT and 2 BPT out of Persia. (Plus the bonuses from playing as Morocco.) That's a really big bump in my early-game research. But by Modern era, you'd need to be a couple full eras behind before you even started noticing the effect of 1 beaker per tech deficit.

 

[Kwami]

Indeed, IRL science flows faster between nations, than in CIV.

I actually try to for science in every single stategy game, and it never failed me.
I like science.

The BnW going in a good direction with Science caravans.
But it is not enough.

The following should be still nerfed imho:

1. Late game mass bulb with 12 GS. Your GS either found an academy, or die in old age in 10 turns.
2. Mass RA. Reasearch agreements should be part of the game, and the base rate seems to be ok, but PT+Rat bonus makes them too strong.

Yeah, the lack of changes with regard to Great Scientists was the biggest disappointment of BNW. It's so easy to fix, too! All they'd have to do is use the Great Musician mechanic so that the research value is 10x your beakers when the GS is born and never changes. That way, you can't save up a bunch of GS.

RAs are probably OK, but the AI should be smarter about them.

 

[Dai]

I've actually found in my experience (n=2) that RAs aren't as much of a force now. The AI haven't been sitting on as much gold, and between that and my own slightly drier coffers, it's hard to find/trade them enough money to reliably generate RAs. anyone else have some experience on that?

Same. On top of that, you can't necessarily maintain a DoF with everyone else in the game; even with the lovey-lovey BNW AI, not everyone wants a DoF all the time. This is somewhat true in G&K as well, but trying to make RAs feels like a process of constantly scanning the AI's gold reserves to try to grab an RA before they blow their money on something else.

 

[Zednaught]

That's true, but Globalisation still helps a lot.

For most people it's, what, 5 delegates? That's 2 and a half city states. The gold cost can vary, but if you've gone commerce, you can more than make up the difference with extra gold. Plus, your spies might be put to better use causing a coup in city states, generating 2 votes per spy.

 

[budweiser]

I've actually found in my experience (n=2) that RAs aren't as much of a force now. The AI haven't been sitting on as much gold, and between that and my own slightly drier coffers, it's hard to find/trade them enough money to reliably generate RAs. anyone else have some experience on that?

No, but I have only been playing Venice. I've had as many as 3 people ask me for RA's in one turn.

If I have a trade route to their cap for +25 and they get +20 it practically pays for the continuous RA.

I dont know how well they have been doing in terms of beakers. So much else is going on, I tend to fly through that.

 

[MadHaxxor]

yes science is good... when playing against the ai. 1v1 me and see if your precious science can stop me

 

[Rhaegar7]

yes science is good... when playing against the ai. 1v1 me and see if your precious science can stop me

+1

The game is actually really good balanced for multi (at least for G&K) in that regard.

All those talk about Science being OP is for beating the stupid AI that doesn't know how to punish you in any way.

 

[Muskie]

That's true, but Globalisation still helps a lot.

I used religion and many missionaries to convert people getting 2 free votes for founding World Religion. Also Freedom has a tenet that gives you extra votes for exch diplomat so I turn all my spies into diplomats.

But I think moving up through the eras is more important than before. The number of techs you research is less important than which era your biggest branch goes to. Getting extra trade routes, getting the UN vote, getting more spies, getting to Archeology, all of this helps win non-Science victories.

Without science you're at a disadvantage. I still like Patronage and trade routes with major powers to gain science. Piety doesn't give you much science so despite the Reformation bonus I think some combination of Liberty and/or Tradition is the best opener. Then I like to go Patronage.

Now in BNW it isn't necessary to finish of a social policy before moving on as the Cultural Victory condition has changed. I like Tradition more now because buying Engineers with Faith to rush build wonders is full of win.

I like Patronage as it helps with just about everything. Then later in the game I can specialize even more or as the case has been for the first week of BNW just try stuff out.

There are still many strategies, civs and wonders I've never built. Lots of unique units and unique buildings too.

Not enough time and energy to play every permutation possible.

 

[Martinus]

I played around with this strategy a bit, and I think going into Piety instead of Tradition, is a useful refinement. For your religion pick up the tenets that give buildings (e.g. a Pagoda and a Cathedral, or a Monastery if you have a lot of wine and/or incense - to quickly buff up your new cities without the benefits you'd get from Tradition) and - most importantly - choose Jesuit Education as your Reformation belief - being able to use tons of faith you will have to buy Universities, Public Schools and Research Labs is HUGE.

I just won my first game with a diplomacy victory (although was on a good way to win culturally) on King using this tactics as Byzantium (and focusing only on faith-giving wonders until the Industrial era).

 

[MoloMowChow]

Tried this strategy, but probably wasn't a good idea for someone fresh to the Civ franchise even on Prince.

When I established the 3rd city I lacked happiness from insufficient luxury resources as well as a fast growing population.

It seems I couldn't make nearly enough gold to rush buy universities for 3 cities. My income was too low to even try supporting 6 or so archers. Not to mention the Shaka was nearby which meant quick war soon.

I could have avoided these problems if I knew better about city placement and warmongering civilizations nearby.

I should probably just play normally to familiarize myself with the game more before attempting elaborate strategies meant for high difficulty play.