Shaitan
der Besucher
I wonder...are there any utilities out there that can change the difficulty level of a save game?
"Fix" the demogame - difficulty level, etc.
- Thread starter Shaitan
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Shaitan
der Besucher
Not familiar with it but if it works then we should seriously consider using it. It seems to be a pretty strong concensus that one of the major problems we have with the participation and fun level of the demogame is the emperor difficulty level.
FortyJ
Deity
What's this? Octavian... you and I have to talk. Now I understand why you said this cartographic job would be easy....
On a more serious note, though. I think Eyrei's dead on target with his assessment of the problems we're facing. However, even if the difficulty is so intimidating that new players are reluctant to speak up, we often compound this problem by reacting with impatience and hostility to such "newbie posts".
I don't normally attempt emperor level games, but the demogame offers an excellent opportunity to learn tactics from more skilled players and to be a part of something more than just a regular Civ3 game. The depth and involvement that is the demogame is rare and something that even Firaxis could not have anticipated. Any true fan of Civilization can find themselves a "role" to play in our demogame whether it's in leadership or simply as a vocal citizen.
Oh, and another strong contributor to the demogame's problems, in my opinion, is the release of PTW...
Shaitan
der Besucher
Good point on PTW. I've put off buying it myself because I know it would suck me into a black hole from whence I might never return.
Shaitan
der Besucher
Please do, CT. Not on our save but on a regular game to get familiar with it and see how well it works.
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
We should not be keeping up with the Jones. Who cares if "Poly" is playing an Emperor game. It does not mean that we have to follow them. We should be comfortable playing in a Monarch game 
.
.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Hmmm... so much to reply to and so little time. Yes, PTW can take alot of your Civ time.
It is not a good idea to compare the roleplay in DG1 with the RPG. there was very, very little role play in Phoenatica until after the Civ 3 game was well in hand (i.e., we were assured of victory). The role play then filled the demogame void - there wasn't much for us to do in the way of decision making since we were coasting to victory.
I cannot speak for everyone but so far the RPG has been more fun than DG2. The demogame has not been fun (for me) because for the most part we have leaders who neither lead nor actively work at divining citizens opinions on great decisions. It's been more a matter of a leader deciding what we should do and then pushing that agenda through despite opposition from citizens. I'm not accussing all leaders and I think anyone who has been paying attention knows the examples I have in mind. What is becoming more and more frustrating is the same leaders are re-elected over and over again. That may well be how democracy works but it's not fun.
I for one would not mind doing away with the RPG entirely and getting back to just the demo game. I would not even think about trying to change the difficulty level we are playing on. We've come this far, let's play it out win or lose.
That said, I would like to play an RPG game where the demogame is subservient to the RPG game. disorganizer and I came up with some ideas for that type of game but no one else seemed interested. Taking our RPG framework (with some tweaking) and playing a Civ3 game on a tiny map, easy difficulty and few opponents - a game where the RPG aspect could rule the Civ3 game could be alot of fun.
It is not a good idea to compare the roleplay in DG1 with the RPG. there was very, very little role play in Phoenatica until after the Civ 3 game was well in hand (i.e., we were assured of victory). The role play then filled the demogame void - there wasn't much for us to do in the way of decision making since we were coasting to victory.
I cannot speak for everyone but so far the RPG has been more fun than DG2. The demogame has not been fun (for me) because for the most part we have leaders who neither lead nor actively work at divining citizens opinions on great decisions. It's been more a matter of a leader deciding what we should do and then pushing that agenda through despite opposition from citizens. I'm not accussing all leaders and I think anyone who has been paying attention knows the examples I have in mind. What is becoming more and more frustrating is the same leaders are re-elected over and over again. That may well be how democracy works but it's not fun.
I for one would not mind doing away with the RPG entirely and getting back to just the demo game. I would not even think about trying to change the difficulty level we are playing on. We've come this far, let's play it out win or lose.
That said, I would like to play an RPG game where the demogame is subservient to the RPG game. disorganizer and I came up with some ideas for that type of game but no one else seemed interested. Taking our RPG framework (with some tweaking) and playing a Civ3 game on a tiny map, easy difficulty and few opponents - a game where the RPG aspect could rule the Civ3 game could be alot of fun.
The one cavaet I've found with C3MT is that, while it DOES lower the AI's production, the higher-level happiness/unhappiness seems to stay the same.. (i.e., 1 unhappy at size 2 on deity, 1 unhappy at size 2 on modified chieftain). I used the extremes to see any noticable differences. Barbs are also just as hard before as after the change. Modified chieftain barbs are just as strong as the deity ones. Tech research seems to improve though.
Shaitan
der Besucher
Production and research would be the biggies in any case. That would give us the leeway to get off of 0 science and would make absolute decisions much less critical (and bad decisions recoverable).
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
Hmm. I beleve a new thread is in order. One to preserve the discussion about the RPG and one to discuss the use of the C3MT Savegame Utility.
Shaitan
der Besucher
The previous posts have been split from the Split the RPG & demogame thread.
Shaitan
der Besucher
Currently in our game we are in a fairly good position but one that is very tenuous. We're climbing the mountain but can easily be shoved off due to the high difficulty level. With our large map size and number of opponents our chances of winning are actually relatively low. To win we need a comprehensive strategy right now and we have to follow it religiously. To stay alive we will also need a comprehensive strategy right now and stray from it only at our own peril. This makes the demogame less fun and is (general concensus) a goodly portion of why DG1 is performing so much more poorly than DG2 in terms of participation and general enjoyment.
We have the opportunity to adjust the difficulty level downward. Or at least the critical aspects of the difficulty level. Should we take this opportunity to correct what is generally seen as a poor decision to play at Emperor level?
Questions that need to be resolved:
Are there any problems with save games when the C3MT utility is used? Back when I was modding the British Isles, I used some utilities and there were frequent problems where games would crash or have aberrant actions later in the game.
Will making the difficulty easier help to fix what's wrong with the demogame?
Should we just tough it out anyway and live (or die) with our choices?
We have the opportunity to adjust the difficulty level downward. Or at least the critical aspects of the difficulty level. Should we take this opportunity to correct what is generally seen as a poor decision to play at Emperor level?
Questions that need to be resolved:
Are there any problems with save games when the C3MT utility is used? Back when I was modding the British Isles, I used some utilities and there were frequent problems where games would crash or have aberrant actions later in the game.
Will making the difficulty easier help to fix what's wrong with the demogame?
Should we just tough it out anyway and live (or die) with our choices?
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
I can try to experiment on the C3MT Utility on my own game saves and report the results. I can also post questions regaring what Shai has said in the C3MT thread in the utilites section.
Veera Anlai
Southern Belle
I say that if we lose, we lose, and we learn a lesson. I'm staunchly opposed to using a trainer to lower to level of difficulty; our victory would definitely be cheapened if it were achieved by such underhanded methods. Fail with honor rather than succeed by fraud.
"We must maintain a parity with our rivals!" 
Personally, I kind of view using a trainer as cheating. "oh, this level is too hard, let's make it easier". I think we should finish what we started, and stick with regent/monarch games (maybe a large map at the most), since too many civs tend to turn the game into a Game of Diplomacy. (and there's already a Diplomacy forum. 
sort of).
Personally, I kind of view using a trainer as cheating. "oh, this level is too hard, let's make it easier". I think we should finish what we started, and stick with regent/monarch games (maybe a large map at the most), since too many civs tend to turn the game into a Game of Diplomacy.
(and there's already a Diplomacy forum. sort of).
Shaitan
der Besucher
Generally I would agree with you. I play a game until I win or lose. Except on huge maps. Then I stop playing when the game is decided. You know, when you turn that last corner and you've got the game won. Or when your final effort fails and all that's left is watching the AI knock you back to 3rd world status and try to hang on for some sort of histograph rating.
On a huge map the cruise to victory and the slide to defeat are just too boring to hold any interest for me.
That's not the whole point though. Win or lose, this game suffers in comparison to DG1 for fun and play. Our entire goal here is to have fun, not to win or lose. I can win a game by myself. A handful of elite players and I could get together and ram through "proper" tactics so that we'll almost definitely win this game. That's not fun.
On a huge map the cruise to victory and the slide to defeat are just too boring to hold any interest for me.
That's not the whole point though. Win or lose, this game suffers in comparison to DG1 for fun and play. Our entire goal here is to have fun, not to win or lose. I can win a game by myself. A handful of elite players and I could get together and ram through "proper" tactics so that we'll almost definitely win this game. That's not fun.
Shaitan
der Besucher
Please do.
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