[NFP] Fixing secret societies

[TigerBulkRate]

I'd be against any nerfs at all. To me, the mode is supposed to be a little over-the-top, nerfing everything kinda defeats the purpose. The only changes I'd make are fixing up the AI to better be able to use the various societies, and more buffs for HO.

 

[acluewithout]

Secret Societies are pretty good since they reduced Governor Titles.

As others have said, I think the only remaining issue is that the societies don’t have more of a negative. The negatives to relations just isn’t enough. @Nerevatar ’s mod looks interesting. Personally, I’d like to see something more connecting with how your Society relates to other Societies or Civs without Societies. Even just something as simple as having WC Resolutions that can target particular Societies or limit what Governments etc you can use.

I also think the mechanism for discovering societies could be a bit better. It’s quite repetitive as is, and doesn’t really feel like it creates much intrigue etc. I feel like you can basically always get the SS you want without much effort, which is pretty bland.

 

[Nerevatar]

Follow-up questions to the people who did not vote for "Less fantasy". Would you like the mode less if it was more grounded in history then fantasy?

I personally didn't vote for that, since it doesn't bother me much, but I definitely wouldn't mind it.

I feel like you can basically always get the SS you want without much effort, which is pretty bland.

I experimented with much lower chances to discover to try restrict the choice, but to my surprise it was actually not very fun.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Follow-up questions to the people who did not vote for "Less fantasy". Would you like the mode less if it was more grounded in history then fantasy?

That would probably depend on how exactly the fanatasy elements would get replaced with more historical ones. Despite loving Lovecraft, something different lovely could be crafted for sure Pun aside, I don't feel strong either way here. I don't need fantasy elements and Vampires are already close to my personal limit, but it is not my real issue with this mode. AI Cultists don't annoy me thematically; they annoy me physically als map obstacle and something weakening their owners by draining their faith.

 

[Leah and Rachael]

As a (generally) anti-nerf person, I'd rather buff the secret societies. Personally, I think nerfing a particularly strong Secret Society would result in all of them having 'meh' bonuses and make the entire Game Mode not worth even utilizing. Here's some ideas on how I'd do it:

Voidsingers: The most contentious. I think they're what the devs were going for, so I'd leave them as they were at release, which means leaving the prior ability to take cities with positive loyalty.
Edit: upon revision, the Voidsingers do need one minor nerf though - to make the great work slots in monuments hold only Relics of the Void. Relics of the Void grant double faith and -50% tourism compared to normal relics.

Sanguine Pact: Just one change here. Increase the movement of all vampires by 1 for each promotion of the Secret Society (for a total of +3). Vampires ignore terrain restrictions (third promotion unlocked in the Industrial Era).

Owls of Minerva: the first bonus would be as usual, except add "Wildcard policies can be slotted into the Economic policy slot" and "commercial hub districts gain a major adjacency bonus for adjacent districts and harbor districts gain major adjacency bonus for adjacent resources". And then remove the envoy bonuses.
- changes to the Guilded Vault
[1]. Unlocked with the Guilds Civic (Medieval Era) instead of the Banking Technology (Renaissance Era). +1 trade route for harbor district in the city.
[2]. Gives culture equal to the adjacency bonus of the district and production equal to 50% of the adjacency bonus of the district.
[3]. The normal gold and great people bonus. +1 great work slot which can hold anything

Hermetic Order: unlocks the builder ability to construct the Ley Line resource. Ley Lines grant a major adjacency bonus to adjacent districts (bonus is doubled for campus district). Only one can be built per city.
- remove the gold bonus to the Alchemical Society and add the following changes
[1]. This building costs half as much production, gold, and faith as the University
[2]. Grants +2 Great Scientist, Great Engineer and Great Merchant points (was +1).
[3]. Mines in cities with the Alchemical Society provide +2 science and +1 gold

 

[goatdeer]

The SS mode is a little bit over the top. As a stand alone game mode, I like it a lot. But I also like my games versatile.

SS tends to overshadow other game mechanics. What use are some policy slots when you have so much yields from your SS? Wat use are some of your heroes, if you have vampires? What use are the extra policy slots from certain civ abilities, when you have owls? These extras don't add up linearly. You don't really need more yields when victory is already inevitable. Except for when you are really into winning as fast as possible, but that's not really what I go for. I prefer long fun and challenging games to speed.

Therefore I think the SS mode should get some balance tweaks, a little bit, and maybe a little bit more conditional. Don't just throw yields at me, but make me put some effort in it. Let it come with a price.

On the other hand, the mode would also be a lot more interesting with a better AI. Why does a science-focused civ go for voidsingers when they don't need tourism and they also don't use their voidsingers to get cities? I feel like I am using the SS to my advantage way more than the AI does, which makes me as a player OP and therefore the games really boring. The same is to say for the Monopoly Game Mode.

So it's either balance or AI for me, preferably balance so that it syncs better with other game mechanics.

 

[Kotofei]

Owls need to be reworked so they're not so passive.

Cultists are cool but the spam problem needs addressing. Maybe make them way more expensive but give them more loyalty-draining power.

All of the tier 4 promotions come too late in the game to matter and are dull anyway. Either spice them up or eliminate them entirely.

They should be easier to join. Like, the first barb camp you clear should ALWAYS unlock vampires, etc. WTH is the point of SS mode if I can't get the right SS for my civ?

Everything else is fine.

 

[Margaret I of Denmark]

I have actually been working on something like this for a while now, and I just released it: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2406253078. I guess you searched before I posted it

It might not be a 100% match, but given what is doable from a modding perspective I think you will like it. Copy-pasta from the mod page:
Rebalances the Secret Society mode, to make it viable as an "always-on" mode. The goal is to bring the power of each society closer, to reduce power creep, and to enhance the unique flavor of each society, making them more distinct. This is done by adding one or more malus to each society and some further nerfs to some effects. Furthermore, Voidsingers received some major changes, since the AI is incapable of using Cultists.

Talk about 2 ships passing in the night. This mod looks really interesting and as a great match. I will try it out in my next game for sure. Guessing you have been following the discussion around here too with the kind of changes in your mod. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Leah and Rachael]

The SS mode is a little bit over the top. As a stand alone game mode, I like it a lot. But I also like my games versatile.

SS tends to overshadow other game mechanics. What use are some policy slots when you have so much yields from your SS? Wat use are some of your heroes, if you have vampires? What use are the extra policy slots from certain civ abilities, when you have owls? These extras don't add up linearly. You don't really need more yields when victory is already inevitable. Except for when you are really into winning as fast as possible, but that's not really what I go for. I prefer long fun and challenging games to speed.

Therefore I think the SS mode should get some balance tweaks, a little bit, and maybe a little bit more conditional. Don't just throw yields at me, but make me put some effort in it. Let it come with a price.

On the other hand, the mode would also be a lot more interesting with a better AI. Why does a science-focused civ go for voidsingers when they don't need tourism and they also don't use their voidsingers to get cities? I feel like I am using the SS to my advantage way more than the AI does, which makes me as a player OP and therefore the games really boring. The same is to say for the Monopoly Game Mode.

So it's either balance or AI for me, preferably balance so that it syncs better with other game mechanics.

Interesting point. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Maybe if SS was a lot more 'unique', like with the Ley Lines

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Every time I read about a fast win I am impressed till I see they played with SS Mode on.
I'd be fine with the mode if it was very subtle and had no Over Powering effect on the game.
Of course Hero Mode is even worse.
I can't watch when people combine them on LPs.
I'm messing with Monopoly Mode because I find the Tourism funny but that should wear off soon.
Game Modes have ruined the game for me and I would like a refund.

 

[GinandTonic]

Game Modes have ruined the game for me and I would like a refund.

They are optional modes, how can they ruin the game?

Each mode has given hours of playing with how it interacts with individual civs and hours more playing with how modes interact with each other. It's not just value for money but, frankly, a sanity saver in this year of lockdown.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

They are optional modes, how can they ruin the game?

Each mode has given hours of playing with how it interacts with individual civs and hours more playing with how modes interact with each other. It's not just value for money but, frankly, a sanity saver in this year of lockdown.

A few reasons.
They have ruined the strategy discussion because everyone is playing a different mode.
They ruined the LPs because nobody is playing LPs with just the base game now.
They ruined the game for me because I paid them money and all I got was options that I will never use instead of fixing the AI/game.
I guess I did get some new Civs out of the deal so there is that.
Other reasons I could list but maybe you are right and I am wrong.
I'm just a grumpy old man.
Happens to most of us once you, well, get old.

 

[Nerevatar]

I'd be fine with the mode if it was very subtle and had no Over Powering effect on the game.

Not to self plug too much, but have you tried my take on SS(see the mod link above or in my signature)? It might be to your liking. And if not I'm very open to feedback.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Not to self plug too much, but have you tried my take on SS(see the mod link above or in my signature)? It might be to your liking. And if not I'm very open to feedback.

Thanks.
I'll try it out on a couple games.

 

[goatdeer]

I have actually been working on something like this for a while now, and I just released it: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2406253078. I guess you searched before I posted it

It might not be a 100% match, but given what is doable from a modding perspective I think you will like it. Copy-pasta from the mod page:
Rebalances the Secret Society mode, to make it viable as an "always-on" mode. The goal is to bring the power of each society closer, to reduce power creep, and to enhance the unique flavor of each society, making them more distinct. This is done by adding one or more malus to each society and some further nerfs to some effects. Furthermore, Voidsingers received some major changes, since the AI is incapable of using Cultists.

This looks really interesting. Let's see if they have done any chances towards the SS Mode with the update coming today. If not, I will definitely try this out.

Follow-up questions to the people who did not vote for "Less fantasy". Would you like the mode less if it was more grounded in history then fantasy?

I personally didn't vote for that, since it doesn't bother me much, but I definitely wouldn't mind it.
.

I am very indifferent towards it. To me it's all about the mechanics, not so much about the skin, as long as it suits the overall theme.