[C3C] Flavor Units - Yay or Nay?

[SayHayKid]

I am putting the finishing touches on yet another "game balancing" mod and also working on a larger mod with more significant changes. As I finish up the Civiliopedia and the new graphics for improvements, units, etc. I was wondering how much people enjoy flavor units? It is a lot of work copying and pasting the units into the units_32 file and adding to the game. I think they do "modernize" the feel of the epic game, but it is a PITA. I was also thinking I could do a full version with flavor units and a "lite" version without. Granted there are only a handful of active C3C players left and I imagine I'd be lucky if one person gives my mod a go, but I thought I'd ask anyways.

 

[Arexander]

It kinda depends on the context of the mod for me, with something like a fantasy or sci-fi setting it makes sense to have flavour units if there are multiple different species or races, but if it's all humans it doesn't really matter that much, unless you want to emphasize the cultural differences or if it's in a historical setting.

All this to say, I have no idea which option to pick in the poll.

 

[tjs282]

It does bug me a little that almost all the basic units in unmodded Civ3 seem to have been modelled with a generically (north) European appearance, even though all the Culture-groups are 'forced' to use them.

Would it really have been so difficult for Firaxis to give the MidEast civs (and India?) a "Mesopotamian Infantry" unit with Feudalism -- instead of the Mace-wielding "(European) Medieval Infantry"? Even just recycling the Persian Immortal assets would have been an improvement there.

Similarly, the East-Asian Civs could have been given the Stone Crossbow / Samurai Bowman / Samurai Arquebusier (from the PtW/ Sengoku Japanese unit-set) instead of the Archer/ Longbow / Musketman -- and maybe the Mounted Samurai graphics instead of the "(European) Knight".

(Or the Japanese could have been given the Sengoku Samurai as their UU, making the base-game "Samurai-UU" assets available to use as a generic "Asian Swordsman" for China, Japan, Mongolia and Korea)

So ... yes?

 

[SayHayKid]

I agree. Civ is very Eurocentric. Even as fas as having Crusaders, but no other religious counterparts. Having units based off culture groups by default would have been great. It didn't need to be like CCM with individual flavor units for each Civ, but just general European, African, Middle Eastern, etc. I really like all the unique units artists have created for the game and wanted to include some. I just wasn't sure how deep down the rabbit hole to go.

On the one hand I like the simplicity of Warrior, Swordsman, Medieval Infantry, etc. But I also like (especially after so many years) having some variety in game play when playing different games with different Civs. And it is a little more immersive with flavor units. Maybe having cultural flavor units instead of civ flavor units is a good balance?

 

[tjs282]

That's what I started doing in my likely-never-to-be-completed-or-released-or-even-played epic-game mod.

 

[SayHayKid]

That's what I started doing in my likely-never-to-be-completed-or-released-or-even-played epic-game mod.

I am with you on this. I started a "simple" game balancing mod about a year ago after returning to Civ 3 after many years. Just some basic tweaks to units and UUs to balance things a bit. Then I started playing other "epic" mods and my "simple" game balancing mod started to get much, much bigger. New wonders, new improvements, new units, change the tech tree, change the space race, etc. I went down the rabbit hole. Then stuff came up and put the mod on the back burner when it came to editing the civilopedia and adding all the graphics.

Now I decided to first finish my originally intended "simple" game balancing mod. That way I have completed something instead of never ending tweaking. It has the all foundational game play tweaks I plan to use in the bigger mod. I figure the simplified, and completed version, will allow me to test out the basic tweaks and mechanics easier before worrying about all the other bells and whistle. Plus, just having something finished and released is its own motivation to finish the big mod. "If I can finish X mod, I can finish Y mod."

 

[Theov]

There are 31 civs.
Having 31 different warriors, is indeed a PITA.

I never liked seeing a bazillion different units in a game. Makes it hard to figure out what I am looking at.
You could name them the same ... [culture/civname] Warrior. Then at least the player knows its a warrior and what his stats are.
IMO if a unit has a complete different name, it should have different stats.

In my mod I added Culture Unique units, this already adds flavor to the different cultures and makes them play differently.

It just depends on what you want your mod to be.

 

[Ozymandias]

I'm seriously pro-UUs, as long as they're interesting, balanced, and useful. Example: the F-15 is worthless; and the Ancient Hoplite & the Medieval Pikeman have the same stats is ...

Insofar as handling, e.g., a bazillion Units goes, I highly recommend Civinator's CCM "Advanced Auto-production.

 

[Predator145]

That's what I started doing in my likely-never-to-be-completed-or-released-or-even-played epic-game mod.

That's why you create minimalist (no flavor units) test mods that you can play.

 

[Sakharov]

Probably Nay than Yay. Units represent some abstract generic militaries. If Babylon or Byzantium existed nowadays they would of course have some unique military uniforms that we cannot predict. And maybe some legendary historical battles might have place. For example, some Maya aviation regiment defeated Mongols in battle for Australia in 1600 AD and there might be some unique Mayan fighter unit. Civ is all about alternative history. But I agree that fictional "modern Babylonian infantry" would look different that European one.

 

[Quintillus]

A little bit late for the poll, but I largely agree with Theov. When I'm playing, I'm largely looking at the big picture, strategic level. Being able to identify, oh, there are some Knights invading my lands, maybe they're about to attack me, is useful. Being able to see that Riders are invading is also useful, my response is likely to be somewhat different if they can reach the next city back but the Knights couldn't. The more each civ has unique graphics, without a different effect in game play, the more that ability to see things at a glance is diminished (including when the AI is playing and I'm looking at their moves for brief periods of time until the next unit moves).

Civ IV BTS has variations of skin color based on culture grouping, but the animations are the same. So it's still easy to see a Crossbowman is a Crossbowman, but the Chinese unique unit, the Chu-Ko-Nu, has a different appearance and a different set of attributes and thus a different counter-strategy.

So in general, I'd lean towards, "if the stats are different in at least one way, why not, but otherwise, I'd prefer to have one unit" given the limitations of the Civ III engine. So some civs not having a Medieval Infantry but a different, more culturally-appropriate unit that behaves slightly differently? Sign me up! A "Babylonian Medieval Infantry", "French Medieval Infantry", "Korean Medieval Infantry" with all the same stats but perhaps different appearances? It doesn't add much for me, particularly in the epic game. Maybe a little bit in a period setting, but even then, I'm likely looking at the big picture (I'm not someone who tends to buy Paradox unit pack DLCs just for the visual variety).

Tl;dr: If the flavour shows up in gameplay mechanics, great! If it's only visual, meh.

 

[Civinator]

In my eyes this poll makes no real sense, as flavour units exist even as a part of C3C itself, at least when looking at the C3C king units and in the wider sense all "unique units" in Civ 3 are flavour units (with different stats). So to say "Nay" would mean to say "Nay" to Civ 3.

It is a lot of work copying and pasting the units into the units_32 file and adding to the game. I think they do "modernize" the feel of the epic game, but it is a PITA.

Yes, in my eyes this is the real problem. To add thousands of units to a mod or a scenario needs an incredible amount of time that must be invested to do this. Even for, per example CCM, this was only possible, as that mod was created along more than two decades of life time. To cut this problem short for other civers, I set up CCM 2.5 as an expansion of the C3C main game in the C3C main folder, with the intention to make modders able to use thousands of play tested working Civ 3 units in their own mods and scenarios as if they were normal parts of C3C. As among the tons of replies on CCM 2.5 there was not even one about that feature, this was one of the reasons why this present to all Civ 3 modders will be lost with the next version of CCM (other reasons are the use of the default settings of the Flintlock mod in the C3C main folder and the problem that CCM texts in the mainfolder fill out gaps in other scenarios and mods). Of course even with an installation of CCM 3 in the content folder relative search paths are possible, but they cause much more problems than it was by the old installation in the C3C main folder.

Granted there are only a handful of active C3C players left

When looking at the download figures of CCM 2.5 at CFC, I can see that there were about 1,000 downloads of that mod only in the last year. This is much more than "a handful of C3C players".

 

[SayHayKid]

In my eyes this poll makes no real sense, as flavour units exist even as a part of C3C itself, at least when looking at the C3C king units and in the wider sense all "unique units" in Civ 3 are flavour units (with different stats). So to say "Nay" would mean to say "Nay" to Civ 3.

I meant the widely used meaning of "flavor units" on the forum which tends to refer to the same unit, just different name, like mention by Quintillus: "A "Babylonian Medieval Infantry", "French Medieval Infantry", "Korean Medieval Infantry" with all the same stats but perhaps different appearances?" Unique Units and such are completely different. UUs are one of my favorite features of Civ 3.

When looking at the download figures of CCM 2.5 at CFC, I can see that there were about 1,000 downloads of that mod only in the last year. This is much more than "a handful of C3C players".

This great! I didn't know there were so many active players. Lots of people with good taste.

 

[Predator145]

Flavor units have no impact whatsoever to gameplay. Unless not being familiar with them confuses the player in that case it would be negative. They exist purely for fun and immersion. Civ3 is unique in the insane amount of variety of unit graphics existing thanks to our artists. It's truly a modder's game.