force content citizens?

[tinstaafl]

So. Civ5 came out, but my graphic card died a couple days ago so i am reduced to play civ on my notebook. can't handle civ5, and even civ4 isn't alot of fun so i thought to myself, why not go back to civ3.

I have played civ3 (and civ2 and civ1 and smac/x) but back then i was less interested in details than i have grown to be since civ4. I now notice that i am not quite clear on how happy/content/unhappy citizens work, happy cancel out unhappy, that much i always knew. Luxuries make content citizens happy, others make unhappy citizens content (military police, temple, JS. bach). This the pedia explains.

I especially wonder about the workings of whip anger with content faces. In civ4, if you whip enough, you can accumulate amounts of whip anger that basically make every single citizen unhappy. Am i right, that, in civ3, if you have 5 sources of content citizens (3 military police, +oracle+temple), you have 5 content citizens no matter the amount of accumulated whip anger? That seems quite useful since for a small city food to hammers seems to be 1 for 2 (much as civ4), only that, if i am right, there is virtually no downtime (20 turns whip anger don't matter at all in the implied scenario)

Also, the pedia says that happy faces can also be used to make unhappy citizens content when there are no content citizens to be made happy, but with "reduced efficiency". How much reduced exactly?

I'm on c3c 1.22.

Also, scientific great people can spawn when you are first to a tech, right? What's the chance to get them? I got one on invention, and another at gunpowder just now.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Welcome back to CivIII!

You're right, there's no whip anger like there is in CivIV. Your population decreases is all. There's no "downtime" or anything like that except you're working fewer tiles.

I don't know about "reduced efficiency." As long as your city doesn't go into revolt, there's no penalty. There's added efficiency for the "We love the king day" but that only happens if your city is very happy. As long as the unhappy citizens don't outnumber the happy ones you're OK. I admit I never paid attention to if MP or luxuries made unhappy citizens content or content citizens unhappy. It works the same way.

If you're the first to discover a technology, you have a 3% chance to generate a Scientific Great Leader. 5% if you're a Scientific civilization. He can be used to rush a wonder.

Minor point: If you're in Democracy or Republic, MP have no effect and, unlike CivIV, you don't incur unhappiness by having no military units in the city. I usually run Republic and don't have any military in my interior cities. Warning - if you do this, don't give Right of Passage to anybody. Unlike CivIV, there's very little benefit to RoP and military units don't jump out of your land when war is declared.

 

[tinstaafl]

Thanks for the notes on RoP.
I used to run +1commerce systems like republic (or free market in alpha centauri) whenever i could since civ1, usually beelining to them early. But while i was a cottage spammer for a long time in civ4 i have in the last year begun to focus more on production, so i am planning to fiddle around with the whip systems feudalism/fascism...

As for "reduced efficiency". The passage i meant is in the pedia entry for happy faces. I took it to mean something like the following:
Say you have a fresh city with no temple, no military police, no sources of content faces whatsoever. But it does have access to 4 luxuries.
This city has 4 citizens, and for some reason, they would all be unhappy (maybe you whipped a lot). Luxuries make content citizens happy. There are no content citizens. In this situation, the 4 luxuries instead make unhappy citizens content. But they do not make 4 content citizens but only 1?, 2?, 3? (efficiency reduced to 1/4, 1/2, 3/4).
Haven't tested it, just thought someone might know off the top off their head.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Thanks for the notes on RoP.
I used to run +1commerce systems like republic (or free market in alpha centauri) whenever i could since civ1, usually beelining to them early. But while i was a cottage spammer for a long time in civ4 i have in the last year begun to focus more on production, so i am planning to fiddle around with the whip systems feudalism/fascism...

As for "reduced efficiency". The passage i meant is in the pedia entry for happy faces. I took it to mean something like the following:
Say you have a fresh city with no temple, no military police, no sources of content faces whatsoever. But it does have access to 4 luxuries.
This city has 4 citizens, and for some reason, they would all be unhappy (maybe you whipped a lot). Luxuries make content citizens happy. There are no content citizens. In this situation, the 4 luxuries instead make unhappy citizens content. But they do not make 4 content citizens but only 1?, 2?, 3? (efficiency reduced to 1/4, 1/2, 3/4).
Haven't tested it, just thought someone might know off the top off their head.

That's odd. The 4 luxuries should make 4 unhappy citizens content. At various levels you start with a few content citizens (# declines at higher difficulties). So if the difficulty level allows for 3 content citizens, the 4 luxuries would allow your city to grow to 7 without going into disorder. There's no drop in efficiency of the worked tiles if the citizens are content instead of happy. However, unlike CivIV, if you have more unhappy than happy, the whole **** city shuts down, not just one citizen refusing to do anything.

With a lot of luxuries, markets become very powerful in CivIII. With just 1 or 2 luxuries, I generally don't build a market.

By "efficiency", you might be talking about corruption and waste. That's independent of content citizens. Various cities will lose shields and commerce due to corruption and waste. But that's a function of how many cities you have and how close to your capital the cities are.

As far as various governments, there's a recent poll/thead about the favorite/best form of government. Almost every form of government is favored by somebody, but Republic dominates the poll.

 

[tinstaafl]

Are you sure? I have a city with a composition of content/unhappy citizens that i struggle to understand. screenshot:

Spoiler :

The city has 2 MP and a temple for 3 content citizens, + 3 luxuries. This is on king level, which i believe has a base contentness of 2 (verified it via a city not connected to the trade network).

This city has some whip unhappiness (numbers on the popup say whip accounts for 27% of unhappiness, rest is overpopulation). I think i whipped the courthouse a while ago.
But if luxuries force content citizens, i thought i would be at 8 content, 2 unhappy
,(which as you rightly note is enough to shut the city down completely i have only removed entertainers for the screenshot ), or maybe 3 happy 2 content, 5 unhappy? Either way, it shows 5 content, 5 unhappy, and i don't quite get it.


re: Waste/corruption, no i am not talking about these, i remember these. Corruption has been around since civ1 (waste only in civ3 i think) and i burned one of my great persons for the forbidden palace in conquered lands. In alpha centauri, corruption (called inefficieny there) was a reason to use specialists, because their yield wasn't affected. Was this true in civ3?

 

[Ataxerxes]

I apologize, I was wrong. There is whip anger in CivIII. I play with Republic too much, I guess. Similar to draft unhappiness.

This explains the screenshot. You have 2 content citizens base, 1 for temple and 3 for luxuries. Less one for the whip anger. This is why you only have 5 content citizens. I wouldn't expect 8 content. In CivIII, most people use the whip on cities they just captured but not their own cities very much.

Regarding corruption, you're right. Specialists research and wealth isn't affected by corruption. For this reason, far off cities that are very corrupt are often best used by irrigating everything and running a few scientists. A courthouse won't turn it around for a 90% corrupt city. Also, most players pack the corrupt cities very closely together to get more specialists.

The closer in cities you just live with the problem. For core and semi-core cities specialists usually aren't worth it - I want the production for soldiers if nothing else.

 

[tinstaafl]

Pisae also has 2 military police, i am in feudalism, which is why i was thinking 8. But in light of your recent correction, maybe i have more than one whip angry citizen.

I read that government thread. It appears feudalism isn't well-liked. My thinking was that i want a forced labor government, because i wanted to use high corruption city for whipping. But then i got a scientist for a fast forbidden palace...

I also had forgotten about specialists until my post above, on the other hand i had just found out about the 1 for 2 food/hammer conversion from size6 cities with granary, so i thought i would use those high corruption cities for whipping. But i guess republic really is better, since specialists are another way to making these cities profitable.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Pisae also has 2 military police, i am in feudalism, which is why i was thinking 8. But in light of your recent correction, maybe i have more than one whip angry citizen.

I read that government thread. It appears feudalism isn't well-liked. My thinking was that i want a forced labor government, because i wanted to use high corruption city for whipping. But then i got a scientist for a fast forbidden palace...

I also had forgotten about specialists until my post above, on the other hand i had just found out about the 1 for 2 food/hammer conversion from size6 cities with granary, so i thought i would use those high corruption cities for whipping. But i guess republic really is better, since specialists are another way to making these cities profitable.

In Republic you can cash-rush, which is often better. You don't lose population. With that extra commerce every square, you can get rich. The one risk of Republic is the 2 gold maintenance for unit support over what the cities can support. This is one reason why, in Republic, I don't garrison my internal cities. Upgrading is often a good option, which is one reason Leonardo's is such a strong wonder. Your military can then be used for expansion purposes.

 

[Nergal]

I think whip anger is around 20 turns or so.

 

[Bartleby]

It's 20 turns per citizen that you whip, and it wears off consecutively.

 

[Nergal]

Thanks Bartelby, I wasnt sure and normally I only whip under communism when there are so many other factors providing happiness it doesnt matter.