Foreign Affairs Activity: June 16 Turn

[chiefpaco]

Not much I see we can do for this round. Few deals expired during the last chat. We could prepare a gift. I propose using up-front gold at this moment to avoid getting tied down to 20 turn deals. I think 20 gold is a good gift and may improve relations, if we see fit.

I suggest giving 20 gold up front to improve our attitude with Iroquois (annoyed right now). It is pending domestic budget approval, of course, and debate here too. It will be a test amount as I'm not sure how much exactly is required to get them up to cautious.

The big news is the big war between Greece, India, and Iroquois. Right now our stance is quite neutral. I encourage voting in this show of support poll, despite my caution about it, as noted in its thread:
War - Iroquois, India and Greece

I open the floor to the citizens' opinion on what we should do about this war. A recap:
- Greece and India share a MPP.
- Greece attacked Iroquois in 1315 AD. (it is 1340 AD now)
- That attack also violated a ROP between Greece and Iroquois.
- India was pulled into the war against the Iroquois when the Iroquois responded to Greece's assault.

Greece is an Able Partner of ours.
Iroquois and India are Favoured Nations.

What do the citizens feel about Greece's attack? Did they abuse their ROP and MPP or are they so clever? What actions should we take? What opinion should we have on future deals with the involved nations? Should we take a side? Should we lean to a side? How might this affect the deals we sign?

I'll post my opinions in a bit. I wanted to keep the 1st post neutral. Note that a FA summary is posted in the FA thread every round and the history dept thread also tracks foreign affairs. Please refer to those threads for more worldwide information, or just ask

 

[eyrei]

One benefit of the gpt gifts is that, should that civ decide to declare war on us, they receive and additional mark against their reputation (not as much of one as we would get, but it still might interfere with their ability to trade).

One way to improve our relations would be to enter this war, but I don't really want to do that.

Regardless, 20 gold is certainly worth the possibility of an improvement of relations. If the first gift fails to have any effect, we could give them another small gift, as well.

 

[donsig]

I think this is an appropriate time to pour funds into CAP!

 

[chiefpaco]

Good point, Eyrei. Dishonoured gifts would not count against us if they declared war. I guess it would if we did, but I'm not sure we will be.

We are already paying 2gpt to the Iroquois, so I ask with hesitancy for more. What price shall we put on the better opinions of our favoured Nations? Right now, I think that paying GPT will discourage them from declaring war on us, which seems to be what we want, unless I am misled by citizen responses to FA proposals thus far.

One point, the Iroquois are still annoyed despite trading with them and gifting them with 2gpt. At least our 2gpt gets us Cautious with India.

In terms of the war, I do not favour the Greek style of surprising the Iroquois, especially with a ROP agreement in place. I do not fault India in the affair because they were acting honourably with their MPP agreement with Greece. The Iroquois seem to be the victim of a sudden Greek assault and I will be voicing my concerns with Greece next time I contact their Foreign Advisor.

My stance is to back the Iroquois in the war, be a bit colder towards Greece, and to leave India as they are. I move to end foreign aid to Greece as soon as our gpt agreement is up and renew the Iroquois and India gifts. How cold should we get? Perhaps we could halt trade with them too.

Therefore, I will make this proposal:
Turn 0
Iroquois (Annoyed)
I propose we gift the Iroquois with another gpt or 20 gold to attempt to mend their hostility towards us (annoyed to Cautious).

Turn 5
Iroquois, India (Cautious)
Renew 2gpt gifts to each.

I also recommend the production of troops to prepare us in case the war turns on us. The world is not safe!

Edit: We currently have a cancellable Ivory trade to Greece for 11gpt. If we go so far as to stop trading with Greece, we possibly could cut this. If we went so far as to cut the deal and sign a trade embargo of Greece with Iroquois, we could get 73 gold + 3gpt from Iroquois.

I am proposing at least the gift deals/cancellations because of my stance. I do not have a stance yet from all the citizens. Please share your input.

 

[Chieftess]

Riflemen-Cavalry wars can also be slow and costly. I wouldn't suggest it until we get tanks.

 

[donsig]

I'm not so sure I would absolve India. Greece declared war on Hiawatha, not the other way around so Ghandi's MPP with Greece shouldn't have caused India to declare war on the Iroquois. Perhaps it is time to formally review our stance towards these countries.

How would our foreign affairs position affect any (ahem) trades that we be making soon? If faced with somewhat equal trades with the combatants should our FA stance be taken into account in deciding which country to trade with?

 

[Cyc]

Good thread chiefpaco. Donsig, you (ahem) crack me up.

We are currnetly in a position of internal growth. Concentrating on our infrastructure should be our immediate goal. Isolationism can hurt a nation at times, but in key situations can be a saviour.
Being drawn into a foreign war (which may have been started by our nieghbors to take us out of isolationism) would start to split not only our short and long term goals, but our resources too. At this point, I feel we should let these deals run out and see who comes to our door first. And then I don't think we should make any deals then, we should see who's standing in line behind them. Once we've heard everyone's plea, then we decide which way, we as a nation, should go. IF we are going to go! We may decide at that time not to appease some guerilla force unecessarily trapsing through our land. We may have decided a nieghbor is no longer a favored nation, or an able partner is now to be granted FN status.

I say let's play sleeping dog for a while and watch what happens out of the corner of our eye. No more deals.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Chiefpaco,

Your first post is an outstanding summary of the situation, and I congratulate you on performing well as our Foreign Affairs leader.

I believe we should:

1) stay out of the war

2) end our gpt gift to Greece in protest of their aggression, and explore the possibility of changing the spice deal to another nation (Trade Dept. any ideas?)

3) gift Iroquois with 20 gold. If no change in stance, then go no further.

As implied by our President, should the public vote to trade Medicine, then we have several interesting opportunities. We could trade Med to our most favored nations and get the best deal possible, or explore attempting to bankrupt nations that we don't care so much about, and then when the value of the tech has dropped after a couple of trades, just gift it to the Iroq / India combination for better relations.

Just depends on what the possibilities are.

Bill

 

[chiefpaco]

Originally posted by donsig
How would our foreign affairs position affect any (ahem) trades that we be making soon? If faced with somewhat equal trades with the combatants should our FA stance be taken into account in deciding which country to trade with?

I wish to let Greece know that their actions are not looked upon favourably by Phoenatica. As I've stated, I believe they should be given the cold shoulder in our dealings and we may wish to take our Ivory elsewhere. I have no change in stance thus far with other nations.

I see no reason to penalize Iroquois now and the details of India's involvement is sketchy at best. Therefore, I do not want to falesely accuse them. All we know is a MPP may have brought them into a war as the Greeks have gained ground in the Iroquois war.

One point worries me still and that is if the Iroquois start to crumble at the hands of India and Greece. Shall we sit idly by and let a Favoured Nation be destroyed, albeit by other Nations we have thus far agreed with?

One more point, I will start repolling the citizens on Foreign opinion sometime tommorrow. It has been my plan to initiate it in the second half of this term.

 

[eyrei]

I have another foreign affairs concern. Because several of our neighbors are involved in a war, they have probably dropped all production other than units. Therefore, their armies will soon be much larger than ours, at which point, one of them, at least, will likely either threaten us, or simply attack. To maintain a balance in our area, I would like to be on the Iroquois side, should this happen.

To accomplish this, we should:

1. Break off most of our trade agreements with Greece
2. If we decide to trade medicine, it should be traded to the Babylonians, not the Indians.
3. Sign a ROP with the Iroquois, to further antagonize Greece.

We are quite capable of fighting a defensive war if we get our rail system on line quickly. Because of the remoteness of our southeastern territory, we should switch our worker focus to connecting that area to the rest of the empire.

Once we are in the war, we should simpy play defense, and allow the Greeks and Indians to throw their troops at our well defended cities. This will take much of the pressure off the Iroquios, thus maintaining the balance of power.

Finally, and I will post this elsewhere as well, we need to reassess the science queue in light of the TOE. Atomic theory is possibly the most expensive tech in this era, so we should use the TOE to get that. We should not begin researching this beforehand by more than one turn. If we get replaceable parts soon, we have almost nothing to fear from the Greeks once we do the cheap (20 gold) upgrade from riflemen to infantry.

 

[Lecky]

This war was brought on by Greek aggression, in violation of an ROP. In these circumstances, as indicated by the President, the Indians' participation is more than a response to its MPP. The Iros - one of our MFNs - are the victims of a co-ordinated surpise attack by 2 other major powers. IMO we should therefore generally support the Iros and withdraw support from the aggressors. So much for morals and justice.

What about the practicalities? What are the possible outcomes here? And how may they impact upon our own position? Firstly, it is possible that the Iros are destroyed and their empire is carved up between Greece and India. This has to be bad for us because it presents us with 2 newly enhanced and militarily aggressive neighbours. Secondly, there may be a long stalemate of inconclusive hostilities. This is probably good for us because it means our 3 major competitors will be ******** by military expenditure (while we grow). Thirdly there is the possibility of escalation - with more and more nations being drawn in: this is a situation where we will find it difficult to keep out of a war.

I think we should be trying our best to bring about the second option ie. keep out of the war ourselves, but keep it going between our competitors. By giving support to the Iros (short of entering hostilities on their side) we can satisfy both a morally justified position, and also advantage our own postion. We should, therefore, give as much support to the Iros as they need to maintain their position and not start to slip into decline by losing territory. We should also begin to withdraw favourable deals with the Greeks and the Indians - but not so drastically as to force either one into declaring war against us. We should keep the ROPs open, as this will facilitate the continuation of the war.

 

[punkbass2000]

I agree with Lecky.

 

[chiefpaco]

A huge thanks so far, I really appreciate the feedback. The more feedback I get, the more encouraged I am to continue to seek possible solutions and the better prepared we all will be for future decisions. The new opinion polls will hopefully be up in the next day or so. Our new opinion on India and Greece (among others) may hopefully be reflected in these.

Current Dealings:

Iroquois:
(Iro <-> Phoenatica)
ROP, 1gpt <-> ROP (cancelled any time)
11 gpt <-> Incense, Spices (cancelled any time)
<- 2 gpt gift (5 turns left)
25 gpt <-> Dyes (6 turns left)

I think the 11gpt for Incense and Spices is a good bargain for them and will assist them in the war. Originally, I thought we may be bankrupting them with the Dyes deal, but they will still offer 25 gpt or so for another luxury, so maybe they are fine for now. May I also then propose we renegotiate the ROP deal straight up? Our FN can then be our true equal.

Greece:
(Greece <-> Phoenatica)
ROP, 1gpt <-> ROP (cancelled any time)
11 gpt <-> Ivory (cancelled any time)
<- 2gpt gift (6 turns left)

I'm sticking to removing the gift. We shall not further financially support their agression. We could also renegotiate the ROP to get 3gpt and 15 gold from them which may be opportunistic on our part even if it is not cancellable for 20 turns.

India:
(India <-> Phoenatica)
ROP <-> ROP (cancelled any time)
Ivory <-> Silks (1 turn left)
<- 2gpt gift (5 turns left)

We shall then let the gift expire and let them fall from Cautious. What should be done about the Ivory/Silks deal?

Summary
- Add and renew gifting to Iroquois. Maybe lighten their spending towards us - especially if they cannot pay if they lose more cities. Renegotiate ROP to lift their financial obligation.
- Stop gifting to Greece and India.
- Debate merits of trading with Greece and India. I propose stopping trade with Greece, India needs debate and maybe our next opinion poll will let me know.
- Renegotiate ROP with Greece to take more income from them.

May the trade department offer some input as well?

 

[Padma]

I have been busy, and not able to follow everything as I should.

I think you have the right of it, cp: Stop gifting Greece and India, add & renew gifting to Iro.

I agree, stop trading with Greece (the backstabbers). India, if we don't need the ivory, stop trade with them. If we do need the lux, maybe someone else has it?