Forests Ancient & New

[ezolak]

New to FFH and must say it is brilliant. Also downloaded the PDF manual and it is equally brilliant...but sadly just a little incomplete. Read the bit on religion, tried a game as the elves (Svar) with FoL and noticed some quirks. Hoping a vet can help.

Can someone summarize the way the forests work with FoL and the elves? This is what I noticed, please correct and/or add:

-elves can have farms, mines, cottages, and plantations on forest (any type) tiles
-this works whether the forest is first or added later with Bloom
-Bloom creates a New Forest in any tile (only tried grassland and marsh in my game, presume it works on plains, but perhaps not desert/tundra/ice...?)
-New Forests eventually change into Forest (random time...?)
-Forests eventually (but rather more quickly) change in Ancient Forests
-Ancient Forests add +1F, +1H, -1C to improved tiles
-New Forests add +1H, -1C to improved tiles
-chopping down New/Ancient Forests yields no hammers to non-elves

Anything else?

 

[xalien]

-Bloom creates a New Forest in any tile (only tried grassland and marsh in my game, presume it works on plains, but perhaps not desert/tundra/ice...?)

You can create forests in tundra

-New Forests eventually change into Forest (random time...?)
-Forests eventually (but rather more quickly) change in Ancient Forests

IIRC there's is a 1% chance every turn that forest will turn ancient. It used to be 3% in older versions but it would upgrade a bit too fast. I'd guess that new forest upgrade follows the same rules but don't take my word on that.

-Ancient Forests add +1F, +1H, -1C to improved tiles
-New Forests add +1H, -1C to improved tiles

All forests only block river commerce bonus.

-chopping down New/Ancient Forests yields no hammers to non-elves

AFAIK everyone gets the same hammers for chopping.

 

[ezolak]

Thanks for the info.

AFAIK everyone gets the same hammers for chopping.

I thought I noticed that cutting down New and Ancient Forests yielded nothing, but perhaps I was mistaken.

 

[loffenx]

The time it takes/chance to improve forests increases with having Fellowship of Leaves as State Religion, i believe, though I am not sure about the exact time / %s.

 

[Onionsoilder]

-elves can have farms, mines, cottages, and plantations on forest (any type) tiles
-this works whether the forest is first or added later with Bloom

Yes.

-Bloom creates a New Forest in any tile (only tried grassland and marsh in my game, presume it works on plains, but perhaps not desert/tundra/ice...?)

Forests can be created on Grassland, Plains and Tundra. If you get the spells Scorch and Spring(from Sun and Water mana respectively) you can turn Ice into Tundra and Desert into Plains, allowing you to forest all normal terrain(Hell terrain can not be forested)

-New Forests eventually change into Forest (random time...?)
-Forests eventually (but rather more quickly) change in Ancient Forests

Not sure if it is random or set, but yes, that is how it goes. Also, Burnt Forests will turn into New Forests.

-Ancient Forests add +1F, +1H, -1C to improved tiles
-New Forests add +1H, -1C to improved tiles

Forests do not remove commerce from tiles. However, they will block the commerce boost riverside tiles get. This means a forested riverside grassland will give 2 1 , yet a cottaged, forested grassland will still give 2 1

-chopping down New/Ancient Forests yields no hammers to non-elves

New Forests do not give any hammers. I am unsure about ancient forests, since I never cut them.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'm pretty sure that new forests give an extra hammer, but they don't give the +25% tile defense. not sure about the health bonus as well.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I thought he was talking about getting hammers from cutting them.

 

[Zongo]

Can someone summarize the way the forests work with FoL and the elves? This is what I noticed, please correct and/or add:

-elves can have farms, mines, cottages, and plantations on forest (any type) tiles
-this works whether the forest is first or added later with Bloom
-Bloom creates a New Forest in any tile (only tried grassland and marsh in my game, presume it works on plains, but perhaps not desert/tundra/ice...?)
-New Forests eventually change into Forest (random time...?)
-Forests eventually (but rather more quickly) change in Ancient Forests
-Ancient Forests add +1F, +1H, -1C to improved tiles
-New Forests add +1H, -1C to improved tiles
-chopping down New/Ancient Forests yields no hammers to non-elves

Anything else?

I believe that you cannot have forests and mines on the same tile. All the rest should work.

I read on the game tips that elven workers can build improvements on top of forests, so my questions are:

if I am the Tolerant (Elohim) and I conquer an elven city, can I build elven workers and can these therefore improve on top of forests?

What happens if I cast bloom as a non-elven player on top of an improvement?
What happens if bloom is cast by an elven unit?

Do captured elves (slaves) improve terrain as elves do, that is without destroying the forest?

 

[xalien]

Elves can build all improvements in forests, lumbermills can be built only on normal forest but they will remain if it turns ancient.

Only elves can build forest improvements, it's a civ, not racial trait. So elves can use any workers or slaves for that while other civs can't.

For non-elven civs the bloom will be greyed out when standing on top of improvement.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I believe that you cannot have forests and mines on the same tile. All the rest should work.

Nope. Mines work just fine.

if I am the Tolerant (Elohim) and I conquer an elven city, can I build elven workers and can these therefore improve on top of forests?

Not in the current FFH2 version. Building in forests in now a civilization ability, you can not gain it. In previous versions the "Elven Worker" was a UU, if you obtained these workers you could.

What happens if I cast bloom as a non-elven player on top of an improvement?
What happens if bloom is cast by an elven unit?

Nothing Happens.

Do captured elves (slaves) improve terrain as elves do, that is without destroying the forest?

No.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I really think that non-elves should be able to cast bloom on tiles bearing improvements that can be built on forests (i.e., Camps), but that it not currently the case.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I really think that non-elves should be able to cast bloom on tiles bearing improvements that can be built on forests (i.e., Camps), but that it not currently the case.

I agree with you. I also think non-elves following FoL should be able to build improvements in forests, but alas that requires SDK work... I tried to do it once and only screwed up the game.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

If you are willing to make it work only python instead of SDK then it is really easy to do, but then I think the AI won't understand it.

I disagree with you on letting just anyone use bloom under just any improvement. I'd limit non elves to casting bloom on improved tiles only if said improvement could be built (or appear, in the case of Unique Features) on forests.

(Well, with the exception that I let the Kuriotates maintain forests too, as many of their constituent races are even more "fey" than the elves are. I also gave them a Druid UU called a Dryad, which has no alignment prereq, has both Nature and Creation affinity, is of the Elemental race, looks like a Treant (for now), and cannot be upgraded to.)

 

[ezolak]

Thanks for all the responses. One last question, for those more experienced than me: does this make things OP for the elves?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

they're good, and easy to play. not necessarily OP though, they have their share of drawbacks.

 

[xalien]

You mean overpowered? Not really, it takes a lot of worker action to build stuff in AC so you'll either be working unimproved tiles quite often or will have to sacrifice some building options to make more workers. For elven worker to build cottage in ancient forest takes more than 3 times longer than for normal worker on a clear tile. Basically it takes them longer to pick up speed, but if they do it without getting eaten then they can become a powerhouse. 5 on almost every tile opens up a lot of possibilities, especially if you're running undercouncil.

 

[ezolak]

You mean overpowered? Not really, it takes a lot of worker action to build stuff in AC so you'll either be working unimproved tiles quite often or will have to sacrifice some building options to make more workers. For elven worker to build cottage in ancient forest takes more than 3 times longer than for normal worker on a clear tile. Basically it takes them longer to pick up speed, but if they do it without getting eaten then they can become a powerhouse. 5 on almost every tile opens up a lot of possibilities, especially if you're running undercouncil.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I am still learning the complexities of this (brilliant) mod...what is it about undercouncil that makes the extra commerce special? At first glance to me, having towns (commerce) and forests (hammers) on the same tile seems good for everyone.

 

[xalien]

Undercouncil (requires evil or neutral) has a resolution for a slave trade so you can turn your enormous commerce into hammers to rush buildings and wonders. At marathon speed the 30 slave nets 30 effectively obsoleteing mines (+2 mine or +5 town?). The ratio on faster speeds isn't as good but it's still a decent way to qiuckly rush wonders or get essential buildings in new cities.

 

[loffenx]

30 gives 10 on normal.

Though cramming out 40 of 'em, like I did yesterday, can be quite the drag.

 

[ezolak]

Undercouncil (requires evil or neutral) has a resolution for a slave trade so you can turn your enormous commerce into hammers to rush buildings and wonders. At marathon speed the 30 slave nets 30 effectively obsoleteing mines (+2 mine or +5 town?). The ratio on faster speeds isn't as good but it's still a decent way to qiuckly rush wonders or get essential buildings in new cities.

Excellent. I play on Marathon. Will give this a shot. Thanks for the advice.