Forests and city naming

Spoonwood

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Cracker may have covered some of this in his article on workers, but in light of a recent discussion elsewhere I'll post this here.

Once you learn Engineering you can plant forests. Why would you want to do this?

Generally players like to emphasize growth over production immediately, as with "emphasize" production on, you'll get much of this back, and you'll get more commerce by growing faster. But, pre-aqueducts and pre-hospitals growth has its limits. All too often, in my opinion, it seems that players will end up with cities that can't grow and have several extra foods in their box. Here's an example
1241231958.jpg

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1241231958.jpg. Experienced players may correctly guess that I've got a 20k game going here... so at *that* time I couldn't really do much with forests, but the actual game itself is probably unusal in this respect and I only wanted it as an example here.

But, suppose it were the middle ages and I was building Copernicus's Observatory or a University instead of The Great Library (both cost 400 shields), and I had Engineering. Warmongers may want to suppose they're building The Heroic Epic, The Military Academy, the Pentagon, knights, cavalry, or armies. Also suppose that I'm a Republic or Monarchy and use the wheat square instead of a bonus grassland.

In such a case, without any more forests, I would have 7 extra food in the box not doing anything for me. In this game, I can plant a forest on two of the non-bonus grasslands, two of the wheats, and both cows for an extra shield in each square. That's 6 extra shields per turn, which would slice Copernicus's Observatory, an army, the Military Academy, or the Pentagon... each of which cost 400 shields... down from 19 turns to 15 turns. A (non-scientific) university or The Heroic Epic would drop from 10 turns to 8 turns. Knights and Cavalry would drop from 4 to 3 turns. This example implies that it (often) pays off to forest squares once your cities hit size 12 and you have Engeering that it pays off to forest *regular* grassland spots, grassland wheat, and grassland cow squares (as well as grassland wine squares, and other luxuries also).

Similarly, cities without freshwater or an aqueduct that hit size 6 (and don't have too much corruption) might also have plenty of extra food in the box. Similarly, you can forest squares in those cities for a little extra production. Maybe you plant forests and chop towards aqueducts. This leads me to the subject of forest chopping.

As John Sheppard might say "I needed lumber for my army" (this appears in an episode of Stargate: Atlantis which supposedly got inspired by the civilization series). I mean to say that every flatland square potentially provides 10 extra shields for your armies, or for your buildings. The only problem comes as that you can only chop a forest in a flatland square *once*, and you probably don't want to waste worker moves. Maybe you have a really good memory, but I certainly have trouble remembering *every* square as to whether I've chopped it yet or not. Cracker recommends taking screenshots of your games so you know which square you've chopped. Elear recommended to me the following tactic in a succession game which he says has been around a while (perhaps I've expanded on it below)...

Basically, one re-names cities according to which squares you've chopped with numbers. To do this easily, you'll want short city names. I recommend using numbers for your cities, so you know how many cities you have (useful for knowing how many armies you can train, how many more cities you have until the forbidden palace). If you find this too mechanistic, I recommend at least trying to keep your city names as short as possible when using this re-naming tactic. Here's a screenshot, which I'll basically explain my proccess below.
1241231959.jpg

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo146/Spoonwood792000/1241231959.jpg

Now, let's say I have a forest in the spot where if I work a unit in the city, I would hit the '9' button on the keypad. Let's say I want to chop that forest. When I direct my worker to chop that forest, I'll then rename my city from say "003, to 003 9". If I were then to chop a forest in a square which required me to hit 9 two times after that, I would rename the city from "003 9" to "003 9 99". If I had to hit 74 to move a horseman from the city center to the spot I'm chopping, I would rename the city "003 9 74 99" (or 47 instead of 74, it doesn't matter). Later on, I might have "003 3 9 36 74 99" as the city name. You can try this too. The only problem comes as that you can only have so many characters in your city names, so after a while you can't put in any more numbers. At this point, you'll probably have several single numbers and several double numbers. So, eliminate the spaces. This might mean you have "003 123679 33367499" as the city name, meaning you've chopped square 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 33, 36, 74, and 99. Eventually, this will even run out of space. Hopefully, by this point, either you've chopped all single number *flatland* squares or all double numbered *flatland* squares with only the other ones remaining. At this point (or a little earlier) you can replace whichever set of square full with an "f" for full... such as "003 f 3336749699" meaning I've chopped all one-movement squares and only have 2 movement squares left not indicated. "003 123678 f" would mean I have only one-movement squares 4 and 9 left to chop and have chopped all two-movement squares. If you look carefully at the screenshot above, you can actually see I can replace some of those numbers with "fs" but I didn't do so, since I have mountain squares around.

While writing this I thought of another use of forests, which I haven't really used, but may work well. It's probably more intensive to use than either of the above tactics. Suppose you have no two or three potential production squares you're not using once you have engineering. Plant a forest in the city radius and do NOT use it as your city grows. If you have "emphasize production" on in the city governor screen and everything else off (as seems fairly normal), ignoring corruption, you'll get two extra shields as the city grows. Then reconfigure the city on the next turn.
 
I normally play around with modified terrain yields, but the main time that I use forest planting is when for some reason I have a city with bare tundra in the city limits. That normally is due to either capturing it, or there is a needed resource, like uranium or oil in the city limits too. I usually do not chop forest at all, more of a personal preference, but also one of the reasons that I boost terrain yields is to make it unnecessary.
 
This article, of course, had the epic game in mind... not heavily modded games which make production easier for you. Also, I would suspect that even in a modded game, chopping forests would have some benefit. Then again, I suspect one can just mod the game to make it easier for you as you like, instead of actually figuring out and mastering the epic game if one likes.
 
The world map in CAII will track tiles that have been chopped. You won't have Engineering in 470BC, if you just started the GLB, so no planting trees. You have 1100 shields in a city that we can see in 102 turns?

That does not count any units cranked out, workers, settlers and such. Not to mention the list seems to extend down some more for additional shields. That alone is about 11spt for the entire 102 turns. I ignored the last two turns as those shields are in the GLB.

I think you mentioned the biggest draw back to trying to plant forest so early in the game, you tend to have all your workers busy. If you do have Eng and the workers and the spare food, by all means drop some trees. Just chop them prior to rails, still more worker turns needed.
 
Replacing one irrigated grassland by one forest is quicker than replacing two irrigations by mines. The production boost is the same.

Thought I'd just throw that out.
 
Then again, I suspect one can just mod the game to make it easier for you as you like, instead of actually figuring out and mastering the epic game if one likes.

I started playing what you refer to the "epic" game, on a Mac, and had no editor. I enjoyed it about as much as I would enjoy having a root canal done without anesthetic between the overdone corruption and pollution models. Note, I have had a root canal done by a dental student where the anesthetic did wear off, so I know what I am saying. If you have the time and inclination to play the unmodified game, that is your headache. I am not interested in having someone on the Internet take shots at me for deciding that I have no interest in playing that game.

I finally purchased a Windows box specifically to do game editing for Civilization 3 Complete, which for someone who has several Macs in his house, and views Windows as an operating system to be avoided at all costs, is a major concession. I play the game for my enjoyment and relaxation, as a break from the other things that I do. I have boosted resource yields so that it does not take forever to finish a game, along with tampering with the combat values in what is a very poor combat system. I have experimented to cut down on that idiotic corruption model, and reduced pollution to something I can live with. Having lived in Alaska and now outside of a major urban area, I have a very dim view of chopping down forests, which carries over into the game.
 
VMXA said:
You won't have Engineering in 470BC, if you just started the GLB, so no planting trees.

I knew this. I just wanted an example with extra food in the box at size 12. Then I said "
But, suppose it were the middle ages and I was building Copernicus's Observatory or a University instead of The Great Library (both cost 400 shields), and I had Engineering. Warmongers may want to suppose they're building The Heroic Epic, The Military Academy, the Pentagon, knights, cavalry, or armies. Also suppose that I'm a Republic or Monarchy and use the wheat square instead of a bonus grassland."

VMXA said:
You have 1100 shields in a city that we can see in 102 turns?

That does not count any units cranked out, workers, settlers and such. Not to mention the list seems to extend down some more for additional shields. That alone is about 11spt for the entire 102 turns.

I simply don't follow you here. Where did you get 11 spt?

VMXA said:
I think you mentioned the biggest draw back to trying to plant forest so early in the game, you tend to have all your workers busy.

I didn't mean planting forests in the ancient ages (which you can't do), but in the middle ages. It really depends on how many other tiles you have developed around cities where you want production and how many cities you have and such. Granted, maybe warmongers want more roads to the front, disconnect-reconnect, or something, so planting and chopping forests in *most* cities maybe doesn't make sense. But, in a city that produces the Heroic Epic or the Military Academy or Armies especially when you don't have much cash to cash-rush it might.

The number of worker turns needed depends on several things. I believe that in C3, chopping a forest (and planting also?) takes longer than it does in C3C. I only play C3C. Having said that, the forestry process of planting and chopping still varies with whether you play with regular workers or industrious workers. So, how many worker turns one needs and how much one wants to plant and chop forests will also vary.
 
One more (semi-obscure) use for forests: a natural barrier against fast enemy units. Because forest squares take up 2 movement, you can plant a row of forests at an appropriate spot and ensure that your enemy stops before attacking the city.

(Works best in OCC games where you can have the enemy run into the barrier 3-4 squares from your city--then move 2-3 squares the next turn, stopping just outside your city.)
 
One more (semi-obscure) use for forests: a natural barrier against fast enemy units. Because forest squares take up 2 movement, you can plant a row of forests at an appropriate spot and ensure that your enemy stops before attacking the city.

(Works best in OCC games where you can have the enemy run into the barrier 3-4 squares from your city--then move 2-3 squares the next turn, stopping just outside your city.)

I have not deliberately planted a forest to do that, but I do make sure that any obstacles between me and the AI that would slow him down stay there. I will keep that in mind though for future use.
 
I simply don't follow you here. Where did you get 11 spt?

Approximately 1100 divided by 102. I think he is wondering how you got so many wonders built so early? Of course there's a GA from Colossus involved, and maybe an SGL or two...
 
PaperBettle said:
Approximately 1100 divided by 102.

Right, but I don't see where he got that *from the original post*. With respect to wonders, I don't think I had any early SGLs in that game. Actually, for a super-HoF game that's not a whole lot of wonders up all that fast. Granted it's plenty good for most 20k games, but without SGLs later a game like that won't top some of my other Deity 20k games. And in that game, I didn't have huts on... so it really wasn't all that good. With Portugal, you'll more ideally have barbies at sedentary, pop a settler from a hut early on, and produce nothing but workers... maybe a few warriors for a while, develop the squares around your 20k city like mad, and probably add a few in... right about when you finish the Colossus. A better example of how Portugal can work in a 20k game comes as my "Legend of Alcobaca" game here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296795
 
One more (semi-obscure) use for forests: a natural barrier against fast enemy units. Because forest squares take up 2 movement, you can plant a row of forests at an appropriate spot and ensure that your enemy stops before attacking the city.

Usually I'm doing the reverse of this: cutting down forests in the way of a contemplated attack & roading. I like keeping fast units out of my territory by pushing the borders back faster than they can advance :D

kk
 
I never leave forest right next to my city as the AI heads there immediately for the def bonus.
 
I usually cut down forests if I have hills in city's area. If not, I leave as many forests as needed to have no excess food after growing to 6 or 12.
 
In such a case, without any more forests, I would have 7 extra food in the box not doing anything for me. In this game, I can plant a forest on two of the bonus grasslands, two of the wheats, and both cows for an extra shield in each square. That's 6 extra shields per turn... This example implies that it (often) pays off to forest squares once your cities hit size 12 and you have Engeering that it pays off to forest *regular* grassland spots, grassland wheat, and grassland cow squares (as well as grassland wine squares, and other luxuries also).

Sorry for the bump of an old thread... but:
How does a forest on a BG create three shields? A mined BG is two shields right? and a a forest is only two shields right? so where do you get that extra shield?
And does a forested cow still give you an extra shield?

Thanks for pointing out some excellent usages of forestry.
 
IvanDolvich said:
How does a forest on a BG create three shields?

It can't. Thanks. I've corrected that. A forested cow does give you three shields though. I don't know why, but that's the way it works.
 
I think I would be foresting more if floodplains were bordering grasslands more. Floodplains give so much food that I like to max the shield output in surrounding tiles. The only reason I don't forest much is because those tiles surrounding floodplains are usually plains or desert, and mining is quicker and has the same effect. If there are any forests next to very foody tiles I usually leave them, rather then chopping them and then later spend another bunch of worker turns to try and get back a decent shield yield.
I still see players that simply mine everything that's brown or chop every forest without looking at the output of surrounding tiles. I'm afraid that often leads to a waste of worker turns and food.
 
Optional,

I see what you're saying. But, one can replant forests as desired. Your ideas basically get you to max shields per turn fairly quickly. The ideas I've proposed, where the player chops every square that they can chop eventually, should give the player the most shields possible from the surrounding terrain over time (since every square possible gets chopped). Both ideas have their advantages and disadvantages.
 
As you will have guessed, I'm looking at worker turns as being scarce, so chopping/replanting then becomes a luxury. I usually find I need all my workers for the essential roading/mining/irrigating stuff.
I certainly don't disagree with your approach, let me make that clear.
 
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