Fortresses

QES said:
You mean the poopocity? -ness often means a quality that affects outside conditions, -ocity is more of an inner quality.

Feel free to ask for any more BS whenever you need it.
-Qes
but i consider forts outside my usage currently, if after i made changes and forced myself to use it even though it was still poop, then i think poopocity would be more correct? and i don't need to make any sense when talking about poopness
 
QES said:
You mean the poopocity? -ness often means a quality that affects outside conditions, -ocity is more of an inner quality.

Then when, in your opinion, would "poopishness" be proper to use? That is, the state of being poopish.
 
Chandrasekhar said:
Then when, in your opinion, would "poopishness" be proper to use? That is, the state of being poopish.

I sit corrected. Chand~ here is quite right. @Sureshot, One should always take care in their words...especially if poopishness is involved.
-Qes
 
Speaking of border defense, I wonder how hard it would be to take Warlords' Great Wall graphics and put it into FfH. Would be cool if we could construct walls, though I'm not sure how exactly it should work (and there would also need to be AI code to automate wallbuilding).

QES said:
You mean the poopocity? -ness often means a quality that affects outside conditions, -ocity is more of an inner quality.

Feel free to ask for any more BS whenever you need it.
-Qes

Oh god not again XD
 
Maian said:
Speaking of border defense, I wonder how hard it would be to take Warlords' Great Wall graphics and put it into FfH. Would be cool if we could construct walls, though I'm not sure how exactly it should work (and there would also need to be AI code to automate wallbuilding).

I also wondered this. Is it something that is transferable at all? Or is restricted specifically to Warlords builds? Truly the expansion must have some modular thigns that are transferable, but what?
-Qes
 
Sureshot said:
id heard Kael say he either couldn't use it or didn't want to, i forget... its in one of the threads

He said he didn't want the Great Wall wonder, which isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about walls that can be built arbitrarily on any plot by workers. It's meant to defend against other players thru some mechanic that hasn't been thought out yet. From what I hear (I haven't played Warlords yet), the Great Wall wonder purpose is to ward away barbarians, which isn't the primary purpose here.

On a historical sidenote, I don't think walls outside the city were very common. From wikipedia, a couple notable exceptions include the Great Wall of China, Hadrian's Wall, and the Berlin Wall.

Here's one way it could be introduced to the game. Make wall-building a spell exclusive to workers. This spell would target adjacent plots (radius 1): N, S, E, W. The wall is built on the border between the chosen plot and the worker's plot. Hmm, thinking about it a bit more, you could also simulate bridge building this way...
 
Maian said:
He said he didn't want the Great Wall wonder, which isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about walls that can be built arbitrarily on any plot by workers. It's meant to defend against other players thru some mechanic that hasn't been thought out yet. From what I hear (I haven't played Warlords yet), the Great Wall wonder purpose is to ward away barbarians, which isn't the primary purpose here.

On a historical sidenote, I don't think walls outside the city were very common. From wikipedia, a couple notable exceptions include the Great Wall of China, Hadrian's Wall, and the Berlin Wall.

Here's one way it could be introduced to the game. Make wall-building a spell exclusive to workers. This spell would target adjacent plots (radius 1): N, S, E, W. The wall is built on the border between the chosen plot and the worker's plot. Hmm, thinking about it a bit more, you could also simulate bridge building this way...

Yeah the warlords great wall keep barbarians from being able to enter your lands, it would be easy to backrev but I dont really like the concept.

I love the idea of buildable defences. The sentry towers that are all thats left of my origional design to have walls, gates and sentry towers. I dreamed of a bannor empire surrounded by massive fortications. Its not that hard to add the ability to make all that stuff, but I ran into massive problems getting the ai to use it well.

It would have consituted a major stragetic function that the AI was complelty ignorant of. It wouldnt have built the defences appropriatly, even worse it wouldnt have planned attacks around its opponents fortifications. So it was dropped. But I loved the idea of the sentry towers to much so I added them as random un-buildable map occurances.
 
Hey Kael, if as you say it would be easy to back-rev the great wall graphics, I'm sure that we can come up with a suitable gameplay effect for it.

Easy idea:
+3:gp: Great Commander
+25% Defense in all citys
Double construction speed with stone
Buildable with construction

Better idea:
Would it be possible to code a defensive bonus when someone attacks from outside the wall? Similar to the river bonus?

I think the AI should be able to handle it fairly well because it will not have to figure out where it should be built, its always all the way around your culture.

I'm thinking it could be a national wonder unique to one civilization, say, the Bannor?

If all that works, could you make it re-buildable so that when your border expands you can tear down the old one and build a new one at your new borders?
I messed around in Warlords' worldbuilder and when I built a new great wall in a city the old great wall graphics sunk into the ground, and new ones formed at the border.
 
The graphics of it don't even look good, I'd stick to not having it :P
 
I fully agree with the idea of improving forts. They really need something. As you say, they are not used because using them makes no sense. In that case, they should have been removed or improved. Now I like the idea of forts. They have a place in strategy games and history.

Now, the best things I heard in the above would be all seem relatively easy considering what has already been modded in. First, increase the defense rating. Secondly, have a bonus provided while there 'Fort Withdrawl' for something like 75% chance to withdraw if the combat goes sour.

As to the autobuild when fortified, sounds good and it would reward the AI for doing what it does. But maybe only on certain types of units - defender types.

Now how about another (somewhat similar) improvement. The lair. Buildable only by the barbarian friendly, beast or evil civs, something that would occasionally spawn random beast type units. Pillagable to remove for a good bit of gold. Maybe instead (or in addition), have some made by the mapbuilder. Outside a culture boarder they spawn barbs. Inside a good civ's boarder they are pillaged, inside a neutral or evil civ they spawn for the civ who controls them.
 
i was messing around and learned a few things, and finally got forts as a feature, from the screenshot you can see the forts on some grassland.
the mouse-over is on the sheep fortress, and you can see the terrain listed as "Fort/Grassland" and the defensive bonus (i put it at 100% atm)
above the sheep you can see a fort/grassland with a pasture improvement on it as well.

im gonna mess with the fort size to get it to fit in better with improvements (atm they clash)
 

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PapaMonkey said:
I fully agree with the idea of improving forts. They really need something. As you say, they are not used because using them makes no sense. In that case, they should have been removed or improved. Now I like the idea of forts. They have a place in strategy games and history.

Now, the best things I heard in the above would be all seem relatively easy considering what has already been modded in. First, increase the defense rating. Secondly, have a bonus provided while there 'Fort Withdrawl' for something like 75% chance to withdraw if the combat goes sour.

As to the autobuild when fortified, sounds good and it would reward the AI for doing what it does. But maybe only on certain types of units - defender types.

Now how about another (somewhat similar) improvement. The lair. Buildable only by the barbarian friendly, beast or evil civs, something that would occasionally spawn random beast type units. Pillagable to remove for a good bit of gold. Maybe instead (or in addition), have some made by the mapbuilder. Outside a culture boarder they spawn barbs. Inside a good civ's boarder they are pillaged, inside a neutral or evil civ they spawn for the civ who controls them.

good points, and the lair thing gives me idea of how to mix the two in a special case

the only time i ever see barbarians remain in one place (aside from in cities) is when they are on goody huts. after so many turns the goody hut with a barbarian on it could turn into a lair, giving them extra defense and making it a better good hut (providing greater bonuses).
 
How about taking a page from Sid Meier's Colonization and applying it to both forts and cities (via a new improvement, the Coastal Battery) - i.e. allowing fortified tiles to fire upon passing units.
 
Axis Kast said:
How about taking a page from Sid Meier's Colonization and applying it to both forts and cities (via a new improvement, the Coastal Battery) - i.e. allowing fortified tiles to fire upon passing units.

Just to throw out a comment or eight.

I really like the concept of a 'Fort' granting a moderate Withdrawal chance., maybe 15%. That would allow even the greenest Mounted units a decent chance to sally forth and survive. But I wouldn't want it so large that just any unit could casually risk an attack.

The only 'bad' thing to creating a sort of pseduo-fort condition based upon the number of turns of immobility is that defensive bonus goes back to 0% if the unit attacks. Attack=movement, at least often times. At any rate, there'd be no swapping of garrisons when a better unit type became available. For whatever reason, when the unit moved, there goes the 'fort'.

Since the AI is not good at placing forst, could this be mitigated somewhat by creating a 2nd type of tile improvement later on in the tech tree? Mine -> Fortified mine. Windmill -> Fortified Windmill. Etc. Make the 'fortified' version slightly better economically, as small a boost as possible, just so the AI would want to replace existing improvements with the upgraded version.

Different 'Fortified' improvements could even have different fortification bonuses, if that'd be desired. It might be 'easier' to fortify a mine than a windmill or plantation, perhaps. Or since mines are (almost aleways) built on hills, and lumbermills in forests, the defensive advantage could be tailored to match the expected terrain. A fine-tuning if you will. e.g A fortified mine gives +75% defense while a fortified lumbermill gives only +50%. But when added to terratin effects, each tile defends at +100%. Or a fortified hill could end up at +110% and a fortified Forest at +90%. Or vice-versa ... whatever Kael & Ko. decide works best.

Perhaps no version of Fortified Cottage and/or Farms would be avaialble? Traditionally, dwellings outside city walls are generally where residents fled from in crisis, to behind the safety of city walls. And it might help from a play-balance/tradeoff-making perspective, to prevent filling a realm with Forts from border to border. This twist would make for a good debate, I bet.

Speaking of border to border, might it be possible to code Forts so invaders would not benefit from the forts inside the enemy's cutural borders? Would it be desireable to do this?

The 'Fortified; improvment might perhaps add another level to pillage? That is, the first enemy pillage in the tile turns a Fortified Mine into a Mine, then next pillage destroys the Mine. That might add quite a twist to Khazad defensive abilities, given thier unpillageable Mines in 0.15.

Is that eight yet? :p

Oh yeah ... Malkim towers (city building) have the ability to shoot fireballs at enemies. They represent a significant investment in hammers. I dunno if you'd want to give away this special ability to just any fortified tile out there. If the garrison is incapable of risking sally missions, a fort SHOULD just protect the tile it is in. There were scores, hundreds of small castles built for every large fortified city. No one of them controlled a vast swath of land. For that, a network of castles were built.
 
ya, thats a possibility for the Forts as improvements (double the amount of improvements to add tho).

so far ive gotten Forts as Features to work, which allows improvements to exist there and the Fort (though it cant exist with a forest). so far im really enjoying it.
 
Unser Giftzwerg said:
I really like the concept of a 'Fort' granting a moderate Withdrawal chance., maybe 15%. That would allow even the greenest Mounted units a decent chance to sally forth and survive. But I wouldn't want it so large that just any unit could casually risk an attack.

I don't see what's wrong with the units in forts being able to attack adjacent tiles whenever they feel like it. It would make forts pretty powerful, but I'm sure something could be done with the AI to make sure they used it, too.

Also, if withdraw chances can be worked in this way, combat advantages should be able to as well. If units are significantly stronger and have a very high withdraw rate when attacking anything next to a fort, then the fort would be able to serve its purpose much more effectively. It's all subject to playtesting, of course.
 
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