Not true. For all intents and purposes, it's GNP. It doesn't matter how high your crop yield is if you're dead last in GNP, as it means you're falling behind in techs (generally).
Foundation and Empire
- Thread starter VoiceOfUnreason
- Start date
Not true. For all intents and purposes, it's GNP. It doesn't matter how high your crop yield is if you're dead last in GNP, as it means you're falling behind in techs (generally).
But if you're behind in crop yield, you're going to behind in pop and therefore also in GNP and Production.
While you can still recover from a last GNP position if you have enough food to grow the population you need to work higher yield tiles.
dalamb
Deity
I came to this thread very late, so most of these comments will be irrelevant except as reactions from someone who's just beginning to go for Prince.
- I think VoU is exactly right in "keeping things simple". Too many alternatives at the start inhibits learning IMHO. The right way to handle alternatives is show a few in the first game, and a few others in the 2nd. With regard to the big discussion about "it's too easy to expand on this map": NOT FOR A LEARNING-NOBLE PLAYER; some more experienced players are either forgetting how hard Noble was, once upon a time, or never had a problem because they're experts at strategy games in general. There are plenty of us for whom Civ was our first, and perhaps only, strategy game. "crawl before walk before run" is exactly right.
- The discussion of TW/Pottery before BW, and avoiding slavery for a while, was all interesting but I think a little much for a Noble to absorb as part of the lesson -- there's nothing wrong with the fans discussing it outside of VoU's turn logs.
- Maybe some of the "there's other alternatives here" comments could be in smaller font as a way of saying there's more to learn but making it easier to skip over "for now" when someone's getting swamped with new things to think about?
- Since "huts/events on" is the default when someone uses basic "start a game", I wonder if it's appropriate to say up front why you turn them off? They both distort the game enough they complicate learning basic skills, even for people like me who like to keep them on. Also I find the temptation to go for a hut can distort my exploration, e.g. if I get a map from one hut and see another off in the distance, when I haven't properly scouted city locations yet.
- Checkpoint 1: not sure how much to talk about here, but I wonder if you should mention fog-gazing? One reason for the direction you picked for moving the worker is that there's coast that way, and I'm not entirely sure whether that's relevant. Find seafood, but explores territory that might be less useful. Also, why not go 1S for the view from the hill first? not needed because you intend to sweep that way anyway? Also I'd have thought that "move the warrior/scout first" was a good habit to get into, even if you don't want to talk about moving the capital yet.
- Checkpoint 2: You make an offhand remark about using the floodplains as food. I was under the impression one generally wants to cottage floodplains -- maybe farming one or two to get growth going, then cottaging over them.
- @pi-r8: Years of watching Nobles' Club suggests "just learning the rules" isn't really enough to get us to win consistently. This thread is enormously useful, along with things like Sisutil's guide.
- @TMIT:
- It was eye-opening to see you say that "BW first" was "nonsense" since I've seen so many people push for it so you get chopping and slavery. On the other hand, when to whip has its own discussion that maybe needs to be put off.
- Regarding archery, I've heard other players disparage it; I suppose they were talking in contexts where one has already teched AH and BW and found no strategic resources.
- Also, it seems to me that "warriors for spawnbusting" might be a later lesson -- enormously valuable to learn, but once again one doesn't want to overwhelm the Noble with too many things at once. The rule about where to put them is pretty simple to state, but there are other associated things to learn like "what to do when archers/axemen spawn outside and move in to kill your warrior"
- Checkpoint 3: I was confused when you referred to agreeing with TMIT about splitting the floodplains between 2 cities, only to realize you must have edited in that comment. I wonder if it's appropriate to mark edits in some way so it's easier for us to clue in as to why you're talking about a mistake you made, instead of unmaking it?
- @coanda: I've learned to use Classical-era EP to pick targets or watch for an aggressive leader getting sufficiently strong to decide to attack me -- but I suspect this has to be considered higher-than-Noble thinking.
No granaries? Wow; I somehow thought that was one of the most important things to get online early. Or is that only for when we get into whipping?- Not building wonders is a key lesson I had to learn, and am still learning. One stonehenge is 4 monuments, and with the
being spent in non-capital cities avoiding stonehenge when you've got 4 or less city sites in the early game is an easy lesson to get across.
johnnychemo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2011
- Messages
- 28
So I've just discovered this thread, after having played a grand total of 2 games of Civ 4, first winning easily on Warlord then losing on Noble. I have found it to be a very valuable resource in learning some of the basics of the game. So, I've started to play along and read as I go. The theoretical discussion is quite insightful, and I think the OP's rationale and approach are excellent for the novice.
So here's my progress to date:
I settled in place as suggested, and have followed the tech suggestions of VoU. I did warrior/worker/warrior/settler in Washington to start off, I wanted to grow the city before doing any worker/settler action at first. I think I wound up making the first settler at pop 3. First city was New York, to grab the resources. I probably would have been better off settling two N from where I did, but my reasoning at first was it would maximize the number of resources in the city. I've come to the realization that it would have been better to split the resources into two cities, as they won't get exploited as quickly in just one.
My next settler grabbed Boston, it just looked to juicy to pass up. I then grabbed Phil and Atlanta to stop Mansa from moving down any further.
I've kept a decent stream of workers flowing, and have worked at trying to prioritize the tile improvements by resources.
My plan from this point is to create more defensive units, link the cities for some trade routes, and build some libs to get research cranking. When I get some this done, I'm going to grab the gold/wheat city for some more income.
I've approached this project like this: after reading the OP, do it and run to turn 15. Check in with turn 15 post, read what OP is planning, and try to do that as well, run to next checkpoint and read that post to see what I did differently.
Thanks to Voice of Unreason for this thread and idea, I hope nobody minds the necro!
So here's my progress to date:
Spoiler :
I settled in place as suggested, and have followed the tech suggestions of VoU. I did warrior/worker/warrior/settler in Washington to start off, I wanted to grow the city before doing any worker/settler action at first. I think I wound up making the first settler at pop 3. First city was New York, to grab the resources. I probably would have been better off settling two N from where I did, but my reasoning at first was it would maximize the number of resources in the city. I've come to the realization that it would have been better to split the resources into two cities, as they won't get exploited as quickly in just one.
My next settler grabbed Boston, it just looked to juicy to pass up. I then grabbed Phil and Atlanta to stop Mansa from moving down any further.
I've kept a decent stream of workers flowing, and have worked at trying to prioritize the tile improvements by resources.
My plan from this point is to create more defensive units, link the cities for some trade routes, and build some libs to get research cranking. When I get some this done, I'm going to grab the gold/wheat city for some more income.
I've approached this project like this: after reading the OP, do it and run to turn 15. Check in with turn 15 post, read what OP is planning, and try to do that as well, run to next checkpoint and read that post to see what I did differently.
Thanks to Voice of Unreason for this thread and idea, I hope nobody minds the necro!
jammerculture
Prince
No worries on the necro on my part, these are my favorite threads on the board and they should never die.
Settling New York two north would have been better to grab more land from mansa and to get the seafood, but your placement got the pig which would have required a third, not so great city to encompass so imo, not that bad of a move. It kind of comes down to what mansa was doing, the position you settled would be a consolation prize if I couldn't get the more northern spot due to mali culture, ie. if djenne was already settled then your spot is optimal.
You need to cottage over some of those farms in your capital. Food is life, but you have taken it too far! Getting a library in washington wont help you that much in this scenario as it gives 25% more research but if you have very little commerce > research, then 25% of a little is still a little. Also, you are right up to the happy cap so more growth wont help much, unless your planning on whipping out some axes for some pointy stick diplomacy! Djenne looks like a juicy target as it could be cottaged over nicely and it's culture is interfering with atlanta. However, your lack of cottages could be ruling out any further expansion whether through conquest or settling some of your dotmapped cities, its hard to tell without seeing any of your economic numbers. It might be beneficial to go after that wheat/gold city, cottage up the flood plains and mine the gold for some quick cash!
Settling New York two north would have been better to grab more land from mansa and to get the seafood, but your placement got the pig which would have required a third, not so great city to encompass so imo, not that bad of a move. It kind of comes down to what mansa was doing, the position you settled would be a consolation prize if I couldn't get the more northern spot due to mali culture, ie. if djenne was already settled then your spot is optimal.
You need to cottage over some of those farms in your capital. Food is life, but you have taken it too far! Getting a library in washington wont help you that much in this scenario as it gives 25% more research but if you have very little commerce > research, then 25% of a little is still a little. Also, you are right up to the happy cap so more growth wont help much, unless your planning on whipping out some axes for some pointy stick diplomacy! Djenne looks like a juicy target as it could be cottaged over nicely and it's culture is interfering with atlanta. However, your lack of cottages could be ruling out any further expansion whether through conquest or settling some of your dotmapped cities, its hard to tell without seeing any of your economic numbers. It might be beneficial to go after that wheat/gold city, cottage up the flood plains and mine the gold for some quick cash!
johnnychemo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2011
- Messages
- 28
My economy at this point is pretty low. I will cottage over some farms, I also lost some workers to barbs so I've got to replenish those. I've done a bit of whipping to help the happy cap. Not quite ready to do any warmongering, but Djenne will be the first to fall. I was thinking of razing it to give Atlanta a little more life.
Thanks for the tips!
Thanks for the tips!
Idunno if it's been mentioned yet because I'm just on page 2, but re: pottery vs BW
BW first on this map for sure. Plenty of riverside & city #2-4 is going to be gold, so we have more than enough commerce to expand all-out without going broke, with plenty of time to spare for researching pottery later.
As TMIT himself said: prioritize improved special tiles. Creating/Working cottages that you don't absolutely need takes away from that. And let's not forget the copper itself, a 6-yield tile that we'll often be settling near. This time we got it in the capital!
And to add my voice on the Stonehenge debate: Only if you have a damned good reason. Stonehenge isn't ONE city less - it's one city less, AND your other cities come out much later, which means they contribute more workers and settlers later, which snowballs in a lousy way. And you don't need a monument in many of your cities anyways, thanks to religious spread and/or other sources of culture.
BW first on this map for sure. Plenty of riverside & city #2-4 is going to be gold, so we have more than enough commerce to expand all-out without going broke, with plenty of time to spare for researching pottery later.
As TMIT himself said: prioritize improved special tiles. Creating/Working cottages that you don't absolutely need takes away from that. And let's not forget the copper itself, a 6-yield tile that we'll often be settling near. This time we got it in the capital!
And to add my voice on the Stonehenge debate: Only if you have a damned good reason. Stonehenge isn't ONE city less - it's one city less, AND your other cities come out much later, which means they contribute more workers and settlers later, which snowballs in a lousy way. And you don't need a monument in many of your cities anyways, thanks to religious spread and/or other sources of culture.
on page 4 now, two comments:
-tech trading IS pretty lame... the human has a gigantic, basically insurmountable advantage in making intelligent trades. I actually played with no tech trading until a month or two ago when I joined this forum, when I switched just cuz I figured I'd see what the game you guys were playing was all about. I also always WISHED there was a way to enforce 'always war' for every single civ, not just the human :/
-I think it's a pretty huge mistake to be chopping monuments before improving food, unless the forest is prechopped so you waste only one turn (and even then, only if the worker has nothing better to do for some reason). Improve the food, grow, whip the monument, then grow back in basically the same time since you've been getting so much more food/turn, only this way you haven't wasted a forest or worker turns! Only exception would be if you don't have food available until a border pop.
-tech trading IS pretty lame... the human has a gigantic, basically insurmountable advantage in making intelligent trades. I actually played with no tech trading until a month or two ago when I joined this forum, when I switched just cuz I figured I'd see what the game you guys were playing was all about. I also always WISHED there was a way to enforce 'always war' for every single civ, not just the human :/
-I think it's a pretty huge mistake to be chopping monuments before improving food, unless the forest is prechopped so you waste only one turn (and even then, only if the worker has nothing better to do for some reason). Improve the food, grow, whip the monument, then grow back in basically the same time since you've been getting so much more food/turn, only this way you haven't wasted a forest or worker turns! Only exception would be if you don't have food available until a border pop.
I remember the time when I struggled to win on Warlord. Now, I'm regularly winning on Monarch and plan to move up to Emperor soon.
This is a great thread, and I still learned a thing or two lol. But I also can't remember having to think that much on Noble, haha. All it takes is learning to dotmap, learning to specialize cities, and putting Courthouses everywhere, and a win is assured.
And build lots of Workers and Siege! The number one newbie mistakes is that they slack on Workers in peacetime, and slack on Siege in wartime.
This is a great thread, and I still learned a thing or two lol. But I also can't remember having to think that much on Noble, haha. All it takes is learning to dotmap, learning to specialize cities, and putting Courthouses everywhere, and a win is assured.
And build lots of Workers and Siege! The number one newbie mistakes is that they slack on Workers in peacetime, and slack on Siege in wartime.
As for Stonehenge, well, I gotta admit, I'm still a Henge addict. I dunno, I seem to get the worst games in terms of culture spread.
But now I've found myself sucking it up and just chopping a Monument in cities that need it. Because quite a few cities, especially mining settlements, won't need it. And if you build Stonehenge, you're paying for a Monument in these unnecessary cities too.
But now I've found myself sucking it up and just chopping a Monument in cities that need it. Because quite a few cities, especially mining settlements, won't need it. And if you build Stonehenge, you're paying for a Monument in these unnecessary cities too.
It's strong of you to suck it up.
I have done a simmilar journey, over-using the creative trait.
Beeing addicted to them borderpops is a very bad thing, since it makes it more difficult to prioritize now above later.
It's whats in the inner ring, that counts!
StillLearning
Chieftain
This thread is great -- any chance we can get it added to the War Academy, or convince you to finish the guide?
I just discovered the forums and read through the whole War Academy, but have only played a couple of games since then (Warlords/Julius/Noble to learn how to warmonger; BTS with BBAI/Hannibal/Chieftain to see what BTS and the Better AI were like. Won both games early -- I rarely play the late game since managing lots of cities is so tedious.)
Key things that I have learned so far:
* Speed matters
=> Slavery is actually useful for something (I found it distasteful so I had never tried it)
=> Chopping trees is actually useful for something (I always ignored forests till lumbermills)
=> Get a worker out early, and make sure your research gives him something to do
* Open borders are a good idea (I liked to keep borders closed to block the AI from settling behind me, but if I get cities out more quickly, I can still get the sites I want. Then, open borders lets me improve relationships and/or scout potential foes and/or get religions to spread.)
* Siege units are great (I hadn't used siege units since catapults just die, but I finally understood what the posters meant about reducing the defenses and collateral damage, and then my other units started living instead. And cannons in Warlords were totally amazing.)
* Founding religions is actually kind of a pain -- better to let the AI spread them
* Coastal cities are pretty cool due to trade bonuses, and there's a reason people tell you not to settle one square from the coast.
Things that I need to learn next:
* City specialization (I understand that it's a good idea, but I don't put it into practice well yet. My capital ends up being my science city and my GP city and typically has my best production, too.)
* Best use for great people / how to get the great people you want (The tables of who bulbs what and which techs to avoid if you want to bulb something specific are tricky. Also, since I have a hodgepodge of wonders in my capital instead of a GP farm, I get a hodgepodge of GPs. So I often don't know what to do with them.)
* Making the best use of Hereditary Rule (I usually go straight to Representation with the Pyramids... but at higher levels, that usually won't work!)
* Prioritization (At the easier levels, it's possible to get *lots* of wonders and religions and still win wars. So I don't have a clue how to start prioritizing when things get hard.)
Things that I have no clue about and probably need to learn sometime (much later):
* Espionage
* Corporations
* State property
* Best late game civics for various purposes
So in my next game, I plan to focus on the first of the "need to learn" -- city specialization. So I hope that one of your tutorials will address that.
Thanks again!
I just discovered the forums and read through the whole War Academy, but have only played a couple of games since then (Warlords/Julius/Noble to learn how to warmonger; BTS with BBAI/Hannibal/Chieftain to see what BTS and the Better AI were like. Won both games early -- I rarely play the late game since managing lots of cities is so tedious.)
Key things that I have learned so far:
* Speed matters
=> Slavery is actually useful for something (I found it distasteful so I had never tried it)
=> Chopping trees is actually useful for something (I always ignored forests till lumbermills)
=> Get a worker out early, and make sure your research gives him something to do
* Open borders are a good idea (I liked to keep borders closed to block the AI from settling behind me, but if I get cities out more quickly, I can still get the sites I want. Then, open borders lets me improve relationships and/or scout potential foes and/or get religions to spread.)
* Siege units are great (I hadn't used siege units since catapults just die, but I finally understood what the posters meant about reducing the defenses and collateral damage, and then my other units started living instead. And cannons in Warlords were totally amazing.)
* Founding religions is actually kind of a pain -- better to let the AI spread them
* Coastal cities are pretty cool due to trade bonuses, and there's a reason people tell you not to settle one square from the coast.
Things that I need to learn next:
* City specialization (I understand that it's a good idea, but I don't put it into practice well yet. My capital ends up being my science city and my GP city and typically has my best production, too.)
* Best use for great people / how to get the great people you want (The tables of who bulbs what and which techs to avoid if you want to bulb something specific are tricky. Also, since I have a hodgepodge of wonders in my capital instead of a GP farm, I get a hodgepodge of GPs. So I often don't know what to do with them.)
* Making the best use of Hereditary Rule (I usually go straight to Representation with the Pyramids... but at higher levels, that usually won't work!)
* Prioritization (At the easier levels, it's possible to get *lots* of wonders and religions and still win wars. So I don't have a clue how to start prioritizing when things get hard.)
Things that I have no clue about and probably need to learn sometime (much later):
* Espionage
* Corporations
* State property
* Best late game civics for various purposes
So in my next game, I plan to focus on the first of the "need to learn" -- city specialization. So I hope that one of your tutorials will address that.
Thanks again!
Welcome StillLearning! 
You are obivosly on the fast track to diety with your aproach.
Nothing beats focusing heavily on learning!
For city specialization, alot of experience is required.
You have to look at the land to see what cites are good for what types of cities, you need to know in what order to settle them and such.. It's just short of impossible to get perfect.
You probably won't have perfect specialization of your cities, but generally, the more specialization you have, the better your empire flourishes.
For a exercise, I would recomend you to impose house rules on yourself.
I would recomend ignoring GPP entierly for a game, focusing only on production and cottages.
Split cities up after how the terrain looks, and build only granary/library/markets etc in sites that are suitable for cottages (rivers/green land etc)
Only build barracks/forges etc, in cities with hills and other aspects suitable for production.
This is just intended to get a first taste on pure specialization. It's nothing optimal, but it's somewhere to start.
I play on immortal level, and I still have great troubles syncronizing specialisation of my cities.
You are obivosly on the fast track to diety with your aproach.
Nothing beats focusing heavily on learning!
For city specialization, alot of experience is required.
You have to look at the land to see what cites are good for what types of cities, you need to know in what order to settle them and such.. It's just short of impossible to get perfect.
You probably won't have perfect specialization of your cities, but generally, the more specialization you have, the better your empire flourishes.
For a exercise, I would recomend you to impose house rules on yourself.
I would recomend ignoring GPP entierly for a game, focusing only on production and cottages.
Split cities up after how the terrain looks, and build only granary/library/markets etc in sites that are suitable for cottages (rivers/green land etc)
Only build barracks/forges etc, in cities with hills and other aspects suitable for production.
This is just intended to get a first taste on pure specialization. It's nothing optimal, but it's somewhere to start.
I play on immortal level, and I still have great troubles syncronizing specialisation of my cities.
In general, playing games with self-inflicted rules, are a great way to learn.
Play a game where you are not allowed to build any wonder.
Play a game where you are only allowed to build 3 buildings in every city.
Play a game where you are not allowed to build any buildings at all!
Play a game where you only use city specialists and farms, for all your teching needs.
Play a game where city specialists are not allowed, and you can only build cottages!
It's very good to isolate the aspects of the game, if you are looking at too many things at once, it's more difficult to fully grasp how they work, and how to utilize them properly.
Play a game where you are not allowed to build any wonder.
Play a game where you are only allowed to build 3 buildings in every city.
Play a game where you are not allowed to build any buildings at all!
Play a game where you only use city specialists and farms, for all your teching needs.
Play a game where city specialists are not allowed, and you can only build cottages!
It's very good to isolate the aspects of the game, if you are looking at too many things at once, it's more difficult to fully grasp how they work, and how to utilize them properly.
StillLearning
Chieftain
Thanks for the tips! Maybe I'll have time to play again sometime this weekend...
Eh, I'm not that strong, I'm still addicted to SPI. With a SPI leader I can win almost all my Emperor games.
Without one, I usually struggle, though I can still win some of my games.
Yeah, I have to force myself to play new leaders and strategies. I was thrilled when I pulled off a successful HA Rush game with Kublai.
But Ramesses II and Isabella will always be my favorites. If you can get over Isabella's crappy start, Conqs are so beast that you've pretty much locked down a win.
But Ramesses II and Isabella will always be my favorites. If you can get over Isabella's crappy start, Conqs are so beast that you've pretty much locked down a win.
StillLearning
Chieftain
I was thinking of playing random leaders / random maps for a while to force myself to learn new traits / UUs / UBs. Of course, it's hard if you get a water leader on a land map or vice versa...
