Founding Fellowship of Leaves
- Thread starter Sarisin
- Start date
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
part of the thign with patterns seeming to emerge is that humans need to find a order to everything so we naturally seek out patterns in events.
So, then, how can you explain Elves getting FOL and dwarves getting ROK, oh, about 99% of the time?
When you see something happen often enough a pattern forms and the randomness is really questionable.
As mentioned, AI civs are on paths to certain techs/religions. Having two scouts early helps the elves hit goodie huts (they probably never get killed by animals too
), but still, to get FOL in only 128 turns you have to be extremely lucky or get a little help from the Elf Gods or something....
frenzyslave
Warlord
What I cunningly like best is researching the religion tech you are going for before they do (FoL or RoK)... Nnnnngh Denied! If they get as fustrated as I do researching a damn useless waste of time (especially with 2 turns to go when someone else discovers it) it makes some good payback.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
So, then, how can you explain Elves getting FOL and dwarves getting ROK, oh, about 99% of the time?
When you see something happen often enough a pattern forms and the randomness is really questionable.
As mentioned, AI civs are on paths to certain techs/religions. Having two scouts early helps the elves hit goodie huts (they probably never get killed by animals too
They start with Exploration and research Hunting>AC>Mysticism>Way of the Forests. No other AI Civ will do this. If you're playing Noble or below, and you start with AC or Exploration, you can do the same thing.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
When you finish a religion tech in Fire, you get a disciple of the religion, regardless of whether it's been founded or not...
frenzyslave
Warlord
Oh cool. Didn't know that. Wicked... Yay, so its no longer a waste of time...
When you finish a religion tech in Fire, you get a disciple of the religion, regardless of whether it's been founded or not...
Yeah, but the key is founding the religion and getting to build that religious holy wonder in your city.
You are right though...if I play the elves or dwarves I always get FOL or ROK.
The only mystery it seems is who will get OO, the Order, and AV.
As I said, the strategy if you aren't playing Elves or Dwarves is to forget founding FOL or ROK, focus on other things, and think about founding another religion.
Or, you can mess with the elves, if you get a chance. I declared war, killed one of their cute little elven scouts. But, that still didn't slow them down and they got FOL anyway.
Belial|GoD
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2007
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Remember also at higher difficulties they get a free worker and other bonus's.
The free worker is a HUGE advantage for tech research.
The free worker is a HUGE advantage for tech research.
DieselBiscuit
Shoggoth tickler
So, then, how can you explain Elves getting FOL and dwarves getting ROK, oh, about 99% of the time?
When you see something happen often enough a pattern forms and the randomness is really questionable.
As mentioned, AI civs are on paths to certain techs/religions. Having two scouts early helps the elves hit goodie huts (they probably never get killed by animals too
In my post I did nothing to provide an explanation for the phenomenon, I merely pointed out that the code does not seem to favor certain techs based on which civilization gets it. Other posters have pointed out a few reasonable theories:
1. Elves start with 2 scouts, exploration (for Mobility) and the ability to move through forests at reduced cost. They will get a lot of huts. Statistically, if they get 5 or more techs, there's about 30% chance that they get at least 2 techs that helps them get to FoL. This probabilty is fairly proportional to the number of techs gained from huts, so the more the better.
2. If the AI plays the elves they get a free worker at higher difficulties. Given that they ALWAYS beeline to FoL. This gives them a huge advantage, even if they start out with few workable resources. Given that they pop a few techs from huts that makes more resources workable, this advantage get even bigger.
3. You superpolate the experiences that reinforces a theory based on unknown forces manipulating reality and downplay those who don't. This is human nature and is widely believed to be the reason that Occam cut a lot of people with his razor.
In summary:
Statistics good, Occam == Jack the Ripper
Whoa, pretty heavy stuff!
Anyway, thank you for your explanation, and, of course, you are right.
I was unaware of the elven worker bonus. I have only played up to Emperor difficulty and did not see that.
Do the dwarves get a similar bonus to help them get ROK? They don't have the benefit of two explorers at the start and ALWAYS seem to get ROK very quickly.
Part of the problem is that other than the elves doing fellowship and the dwarves doing runes, no other AI bothers with a religion.
In vanilla, religions are mixed in with normal techs. Furthermore, having or not having a religion is really a toss up. In FfH religionmatters. Every AI civ should be dedicating at least a portion of their research to getting a religious tech.
In vanilla, religions are mixed in with normal techs. Furthermore, having or not having a religion is really a toss up. In FfH religionmatters. Every AI civ should be dedicating at least a portion of their research to getting a religious tech.
I had a few more thoughts about this...
First, I played most of my games at Prince and Monarch before briefly trying out "Emperor - Fire drove me back down. I don't recall seeing the elves get the bonus worker at those levels and they still got FOL every time - pretty early too.
The other thing I was wondering about:
Do the elves sent out both scouts leaving their only city without a defender, or do the keep one at home to defend against wandering early skeletons? It seems like the AI would defend leaving only one scout to explore. Of course, I'm not sure how well a fortified scout with no promotions would fare against a skeleton anyway.
If you play at Marathon speed, it can take 20 - 30 turns before you can build your first Warrior. That is a lot of time to leave your only city without a defender.
I guess a good strategy, then, if elves are sending both scouts out with no defender, if you can, is to make a bee-line with your warrior or scout for their capital city. You will likely find it without a defender and easy taking. Then, the elves wouldn't found FOL.
However, if I am playing the elves, or any civ, I tend to leave one unit very close to home to guard against the skeletons. It didn't do me any good in one game as I had two take out my sole warrior defender prematurely ending the game (Marathon) at yr. 18.
So, to play the devil's advocate again, if they are only sending out one scout until they could get a warrior for defense, that should slow down even more their progress towards FOL.
First, I played most of my games at Prince and Monarch before briefly trying out "Emperor - Fire drove me back down. I don't recall seeing the elves get the bonus worker at those levels and they still got FOL every time - pretty early too.
The other thing I was wondering about:
Do the elves sent out both scouts leaving their only city without a defender, or do the keep one at home to defend against wandering early skeletons? It seems like the AI would defend leaving only one scout to explore. Of course, I'm not sure how well a fortified scout with no promotions would fare against a skeleton anyway.
If you play at Marathon speed, it can take 20 - 30 turns before you can build your first Warrior. That is a lot of time to leave your only city without a defender.
I guess a good strategy, then, if elves are sending both scouts out with no defender, if you can, is to make a bee-line with your warrior or scout for their capital city. You will likely find it without a defender and easy taking. Then, the elves wouldn't found FOL.
However, if I am playing the elves, or any civ, I tend to leave one unit very close to home to guard against the skeletons. It didn't do me any good in one game as I had two take out my sole warrior defender prematurely ending the game (Marathon) at yr. 18.
So, to play the devil's advocate again, if they are only sending out one scout until they could get a warrior for defense, that should slow down even more their progress towards FOL.
Black Attila
Chieftain
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BeefontheBone
Windbag of the sea
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As an aside, the bonus worker on higher diffs is not unique to the elves - all AIs get one. On the top levles in vanilla they start with a couple of archers - probably a handful of warriors in FfH.
Where does this bonus worker kick in? I have played up to Emperor and not seen one?
![[NWO]_Valis](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/110/110973.jpg?1475248361){kind=avatar}
[NWO]_Valis
A bad kitty!
The bonus worker is not for you! The AI gets it on higher difficulty levels so it is more competitive as I understand it.
OK, I got a friend to download .21 for me and decided to start 2 games to see which civs founded religions in the early going. Mostly as expected, but a few surprises.
I used a huge Fantasy Realm map with 10 AI civs on Prince at Epic speed.
1. Playing as Cardith Lorda I was not surprised when the elves got FOL at yr. 146 and the dwarves got ROK at 150. Actually, maybe a little surprised with the dwarves as I declared war on them and stole a dwarven worker from them in the early going, and Orthus was beating up on him awhile. All that didn't slow him down apparently.
OO was founded in yr. 179 by one of the evil civs - I forget which. The big surprise game when Varn Gosam founded the Order in yr. 224. That seemed REALLY early to me for the Order when you look at the tech tree - but Malakhim did start with Ancient Chants. Still...
Anyway, 4 of 5 religions founded by the yr. 225, and only the Ashen Veil left for me and I am a Good civ.
2. I chose Arendel of the elves in the second game to see how fast I could get FOL. Again, a few problems and surprises.
I sent out both elven scouts and left my city defenseless. I got 4 free techs from goodie huts, but they didn't help much - Ancient Chants (helped), Cartography, Agriculture and Fishing. I had to research Mysticism, Hunting and then Ways of the Forest.
I lost one of my scouts fairly quickly -killed by a Wolf no less while he was healing after killing a Bear! But, no worry, as I got two more from goodie huts. I also got my share of gold, maps, experience and a few elven warriors. In all I think I got 15 or so huts.
The bottom line: I was able to get FOL in yr. 198. Kandros Fir got ROK a few turns before me.
Neither of us had that free worker.
To summarize:
It is pretty clear the AI elves have two priorities:
1. Rush for FOL
2. Expand their civ
The funny thing is I'm not sure how they do it. By building elven settlers their cities don't grow. They are not keen on building improvements to increase growth - less hammers, commerce, food, etc.
They are not reseaching techs that give them a stronger military (except Hunting), more gold, improvements, etc. and yet they get to FOL.
I just don't think the combination of expanding and rushing for a tech like Ways of the Forest are compatible.
The dwarves don't try to expand, but they clearly have a priority of rushing for ROK. Again, they ignore many techs that would help the civ's economy, financial, military, etc. in favor of going for the religion.
OK, I'm confused, and I guess it seems like I am beating a dead horse here, but in conclusion...
If you have an AI elven and dwarven civ in your game, you have to be either very lucky or very stupid to go for FOL or ROK. Doing so will get you second place in the race. You will get the religion, of course, but not the holy city and think of all the time you could have spent researching other techs for military, economy, etc.
I used a huge Fantasy Realm map with 10 AI civs on Prince at Epic speed.
1. Playing as Cardith Lorda I was not surprised when the elves got FOL at yr. 146 and the dwarves got ROK at 150. Actually, maybe a little surprised with the dwarves as I declared war on them and stole a dwarven worker from them in the early going, and Orthus was beating up on him awhile. All that didn't slow him down apparently.
OO was founded in yr. 179 by one of the evil civs - I forget which. The big surprise game when Varn Gosam founded the Order in yr. 224. That seemed REALLY early to me for the Order when you look at the tech tree - but Malakhim did start with Ancient Chants. Still...
Anyway, 4 of 5 religions founded by the yr. 225, and only the Ashen Veil left for me and I am a Good civ.
2. I chose Arendel of the elves in the second game to see how fast I could get FOL. Again, a few problems and surprises.
I sent out both elven scouts and left my city defenseless. I got 4 free techs from goodie huts, but they didn't help much - Ancient Chants (helped), Cartography, Agriculture and Fishing. I had to research Mysticism, Hunting and then Ways of the Forest.
I lost one of my scouts fairly quickly -killed by a Wolf no less while he was healing after killing a Bear! But, no worry, as I got two more from goodie huts. I also got my share of gold, maps, experience and a few elven warriors. In all I think I got 15 or so huts.
The bottom line: I was able to get FOL in yr. 198. Kandros Fir got ROK a few turns before me.
Neither of us had that free worker.
To summarize:
It is pretty clear the AI elves have two priorities:
1. Rush for FOL
2. Expand their civ
The funny thing is I'm not sure how they do it. By building elven settlers their cities don't grow. They are not keen on building improvements to increase growth - less hammers, commerce, food, etc.
They are not reseaching techs that give them a stronger military (except Hunting), more gold, improvements, etc. and yet they get to FOL.
I just don't think the combination of expanding and rushing for a tech like Ways of the Forest are compatible.
The dwarves don't try to expand, but they clearly have a priority of rushing for ROK. Again, they ignore many techs that would help the civ's economy, financial, military, etc. in favor of going for the religion.
OK, I'm confused, and I guess it seems like I am beating a dead horse here, but in conclusion...
If you have an AI elven and dwarven civ in your game, you have to be either very lucky or very stupid to go for FOL or ROK. Doing so will get you second place in the race. You will get the religion, of course, but not the holy city and think of all the time you could have spent researching other techs for military, economy, etc.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
If you build six or seven warriors early on you can take out the Elven capital. That is one way to make sure you get FOL first.
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