Fox-02 -- Praying to the RNG God

[GreyFox]

Agree with Rex .... (nicely put, rex)!

The idea is not to randomize everything ... the idea is to see if can win this game by achieveing a set of short-term, random objectives. Not much fun if everything is randomized -- we the human players are literally reduced to a mindless minion executing the dice roll ...

-

 

[n0xie]

Aren't we all just pawns at the mercy of the RNG God?

... And we shall raise armies and cities, and build structures in his name. We shall smite those who oppose the One-True-God and liberate them from the tiranny of their false prophets and show them the only true Way.
... and by liberate I mean kill

So when do we start

 

[omni_paul]

Yes, agree with Rex actually. Very well put.

So... a couple of days, eh? You sure we couldn't even take a peek at a starting position?

 

[GreyFox]

We would start tomorrow once we finalize the objective list ...

@omni-Paul: I was afraid once I start I can't stop!

-

 

[omni_paul]

We would start tomorrow once we finalize the objective list ...

@omni-Paul: I was afraid once I start I can't stop!

-

Well you do have your finger in a lot of SG pies... I'm just impatient to get going on my first

Off to bed now anyway... oh I'm in Australia btw... which means I may not be online for some of the tactical discussions, but will do my very best to contribute.

 

[ruff_hi]

I disagree about randomizing tech. RNGod bids us do His will through His suggestions. It is a credit to His greatness that He trusts us to know His will and follow where He leads.

The only problem is that these 'suggestions' are not random, they are deterministic.

I am not suggesting random tech. I am suggesting that the actual level of the tech slider is random but that it averages out at a target rate. Lets say that you want to target research at 80%. You can set up the RNG system so that it does this ...

• 30% of the time it leaves the slider unchanged
• 30% of the time it moves the slider up 10%
• 30% of the time it moves the slider down 10%
• 10% of the time it resets the slider to the original target

I have a nice graph of the average science rate over 10 turns but I cannot load it to my image board - will post later.

I also have a graphic of a sample in game message - will post later.

Edit: attached as thumbnails - will move later.

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

Personally, I'd rather not have anything more random than the current RNG objective. Just my $0.02. Though good job, Ruff. I don't want to detract from the effort you've put into it.

Question:

Let's say we're doing 10-turn sets. On the sixth turn of my set, we accomplish our current RNG objective. Does my set then end so GreyFox can roll dice, or do I go raid my son's monopoly set and begin a new objective?

 

[GreyFox]

@rex: I was thinking whoever completes the objective roll the dice. So you better notify your son first ...

@ruff: Nice work, ruff ... personally I tend to agree with rex, I think I will keep the control of the slider to the player for now. Just to see how it works out. For one, I wanted to test it out in a smaller scale first. Also, requiring the players to run a mod when they have already signed up might be awkward. However, I strongly suspect you (or may be I would do that myself ) would go on and start an SG "Random Tech Slider" ...

-

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

My thoughts on the goals:

First of all, it's been a long time since I've taken a statistics class, but I'm not sure why 1,1 or 2,2 is half as probable as 1,4 or 3,6. Each die gives us a 1-in-6 chance of either number. If I roll a 2 with my first die, my chances of rolling a second 2 are still 1-in-6, equal to my chances of rolling a 4.

If you want weighted probabilities, I suggest using a sum of the two dice. In that case the sum of 2 could only be accomplished by a 1 and another 1, but a sum of 7 could be accomplished by any of the following 1,6; 2,5; 3,4; 4,3; 5,2; or 6,1. A sum of 7 is six times likelier than a sum of 2.

Now then, the actual goals:

Start a Golden Age -- impossible if rolled in 4000 BC.

Build a Wonder (World/Project/National) -- can be difficult if non-industrious and don't start with mysticism (is that the stonehenge tech?) and rolled in 4000 BC.

Generate a Great Person (can be via tech research) -- impossible if rolled in 4000 BC.

Amass N+1 times our current gold (N = number of cities) -- too easy, maybe? I usually only keep a few hundred gold around at most unless I'm upgrading troops. 6 turns of 0% science will take care of that easily.

Learn a tech that enables a wonder or a religion -- perfect

Learn a tech in the next age or future tech -- tough, but good. If we just started classical era, how fast can we learn a medieval tech?

Capture cities from 3 different Civs (including barbarian) -- perfect. Will get us in a lot of trouble, praise be to RNGod

Capture or found 3 more cities -- perfect

Capture or found a holy city with shrine -> Spread any religion to 3 cities -- Is that "found h. city and put a shrine on it" or "found h. city or put shrine on already existing h. city"? If the latter, can we gift a G. Prophet to another city and pray it makes a shrine?

Capture or found a new city with a World Wonder -- How does one found a city with a world wonder? You mean "found city, then rush a G Engineer to it ASAP"?

Ensure at least 3 Civs are at war (need not be us) -- My kind of civvin. I like to think of myself as the Civ 4 Vencini (appologies to anyone who hasn't memorized The Princess Bride)
.
Eliminate a Civilization -- My other kind of civvin. Might be tough in 30 turns.

Connect a new reources -- too easy. In ancient times, they're all over the place. In modern times, we trade.

Get a unit with 25 exp -> Tripples the experience of a unit -- 25 XP is tough. Triple is too easy. "Here's my noob warrior with 0XP. Oh look 3 x 0 = 0. Done.

Capture a city with new resources -- perfect

Build a World Wonder -- perfect

Kill 10 enemies -- how 'bout "kill 5 enemies for every millenium you're in. 4000-3000 BC = 5. 3000-2000 = 10 ... 2000-2050 AD = 25

Learn a Tech that allows new unit. Perfect

Capture a size 10 city -> Capture a enemy capitol. Perfect unless we start isolated and we roll it in 4000 BC

Learn a Tech no one knows -- Will RNGod kindly not pit us against Asoka or Mansa? Perfect.

Get something for free (peace treaty is ok) from other Civ -- extortion is better...Perfect.

My thoughts on punnishments:

Gift city to opponent we have worst relations with. -- ouch. reminds me of the folks during plague Europe who walked around flogging themselves all day. RNGod must surely be appeased by this level of pennance.

Whip all cities -- perfect

Disband 3 units with highest combat strength. -- Will cripple us in the BCs, but in this is truly the RNGod's desire we must have faith that he'll provide for us in other ways.

Change all Civics to the most basic ones (example: Free Market -> Decentralization) -- obsolutely love this one. Turn ourselves into the short bus.

Declare War on most powerful Civ -- What if we've not yet met anyone?

Cancel open borders with all Civs -- Cuban Isolationists!

 

[GreyFox]

First of all, it's been a long time since I've taken a statistics class, but I'm not sure why 1,1 or 2,2 is half as probable as 1,4 or 3,6. Each die gives us a 1-in-6 chance of either number. If I roll a 2 with my first die, my chances of rolling a second 2 are still 1-in-6, equal to my chances of rolling a 4.

They are half as probable because in all 36 possible outcomes, you get exactly one (1,1), whereas you can have (1,2) and (2,1) to make up (1,2). Notice that the list of objectives only contains 21 items (6 same pairs + 15 different pairs) instead of 36.

If you want weighted probabilities, I suggest using a sum of the two dice. In that case the sum of 2 could only be accomplished by a 1 and another 1, but a sum of 7 could be accomplished by any of the following 1,6; 2,5; 3,4; 4,3; 5,2; or 6,1. A sum of 7 is six times likelier than a sum of 2.

That will reduce the list to 11, too little I think. ANother possibility is of-course what Arathon used in LotR8b, that is the product of the two dice. That will gives us 18 possibilities.

Start a Golden Age -- impossible if rolled in 4000 BC.

Generate a Great Person (can be via tech research) -- impossible if rolled in 4000 BC.

Capture a size 10 city -> Capture a enemy capitol. Perfect unless we start isolated and we roll it in 4000 BC

Ah, precisely why I mentioed that we would only start the roll after the first round of turnsets. An alternative way to get around this problem is to start with the objective of acquiring (not necessarily founding) a religion with no turn limit and no punishment. This simulates the "mindless minions" seeking out the RNGod first, before praying to Him.

Amass N+1 times our current gold (N = number of cities) -- too easy, maybe? I usually only keep a few hundred gold around at most unless I'm upgrading troops. 6 turns of 0% science will take care of that easily.

Hmm... can we change this to based on your millenium concept? say amass 100*millenium numner gold.

Capture or found a holy city with shrine -> Spread any religion to 3 cities -- Is that "found h. city and put a shrine on it" or "found h. city or put shrine on already existing h. city"? If the latter, can we gift a G. Prophet to another city and pray it makes a shrine?

oh. i am actually suggesting to change it to "Spread any religion to 3 cities".

Capture or found a new city with a World Wonder -- How does one found a city with a world wonder? You mean "found city, then rush a G Engineer to it ASAP"?

i actually meant "Get a new world wonder", can either capture or built.

Connect a new reources -- too easy. In ancient times, they're all over the place. In modern times, we trade.

True, any suggested replacement?

Get a unit with 25 exp -> Tripples the experience of a unit -- 25 XP is tough. Triple is too easy. "Here's my noob warrior with 0XP. Oh look 3 x 0 = 0. Done.

OK, How abt "Increase a unit's xp by 10"?

Kill 10 enemies -- how 'bout "kill 5 enemies for every millenium you're in. 4000-3000 BC = 5. 3000-2000 = 10 ... 2000-2050 AD = 25

Good idea.

Declare War on most powerful Civ -- What if we've not yet met anyone?

Then we escaped punishment!

Cancel open borders with all Civs -- Cuban Isolationists!

-

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

They are half as probable because in all 36 possible outcomes, you get exactly one (1,1), whereas you can have (1,2) and (2,1) to make up (1,2). Notice that the list of objectives only contains 21 items (6 same pairs + 15 different pairs) instead of 36.

I see. Failed to notice the lack of 2,1 when 1,2 was previously stated. Guess I also failed to notice that you're rolling the dice simultaneously.

That will reduce the list to 11, too little I think.

Three dice sums can give us 18.

ANother possibility is of-course what Arathon used in LotR8b, that is the product of the two dice. That will gives us 18 possibilities.

Six times six is still 36, right? I'm getting old, but what am I missing? Never mind. Prime numbers! Also never mind, 14 X 2 is not a product of two dice. 18 is correct. RNGod at Rex.

Either way, I like the sums and products better. Using the product system, we have 5 numbers with a 1/18 chance, 10 with a 2/18 chance, 2 with 3/18, and 1 with 4/18. Woo Hoo Excel!

This simulates the "mindless minions" seeking out the RNGod first, before praying to Him.

I like this.

True, any suggested replacement?

How about "take a resource away from a competitor". Take it outright or convince another to stop trading. Not terribly hard, but harder than the original.

OK, How abt "Increase a unit's xp by 10"?

That works. I think the unit must be identified at the beginning of the challenge.

say amass 100*millenium numner gold.

This works, I think.

 

[GreyFox]

Ok, we are starting soon! The objectives and punishment are finalized, since there are no further comments.


Acknowledgement

This idea was inspired by Chaos SG by Munterpipe and an earlier Civ3 SG LotR8b.


Background

We are a mindless tribe of minions with absolutely no goal in life ... except to worship the RNG (Random Number Generator) God. RNG, in fact, dictates everythng in a Civ4 game, from combat outcome to whether you have resources near your capital. So, this SG is an ultimate tribute to Him. The RNG God mainfests Himself as all seven forms of religion.


The Game

As the mindless minions, our first objective is to seek out the RNG God. This means acquiring (not necessarily founding) a religion. This first objective has no turn limit and no punishment.

After acquiring a religion, we will start praying to the RNG God on what to do next. RNG God will then tell us, by means of a dice roll, what is our next objective. We will do our best to fullfill the objective to aplease the RNG God.

Each objective must be completed within 30 turns, or we are punished.

As soon as we completed one objective, the dice is rolled again to determine the next objective.


The Variant

We will, under no circumstances, discuss among ourselves what victory conditions to aim for, and how to achieve victory. We may (and should) discuss how to achieve the current objective as decreed by the RNG God.

We may do other things that may seemingly be unrelated to the objective at hand, but that is actually all part of the grand plan of the RNG God .


The List of Objectives

To determine the objective, two dice are rolled. The objective is given by the product of the dice roll (eg. if we rolled a 6 and a 3, the product is 18, and the objective is "Add 10 xp to any single unit").

Prod  Prob   Objective
----  ----   ---------
  1   1/36   Start a Golden Age
  2   2/36   Build a World/Project/National Wonder
  3   2/36   Learn a tech that enables a wonder or a religion
  4   3/36   Kill N*5 enemies [1][2]
  5   2/36   Get something for free [3] from other Civ 
  6   4/36   Capture or found 3 more cities [2]
  8   2/36   Learn a tech in the next age or future tech
  9   1/36   Capture an enemy capitol or size 10 city
 10   2/36   Ensure at least 3 Civs are at war (need not be us)
 12   4/36   Spread any religion to 3 cities
 15   2/36   Disconnect an AI from a type of resources
 16   1/36   Capture cities from 3 different Civs [2]
 18   2/36   Add 10 xp to any single unit [4]
 20   2/36   Capture a city with new resources [2]
 24   2/36   Learn a Tech that allows new unit
 25   1/36   Capture a city with world wonder or shrine
 30   2/36   Learn a Tech no one knows
 36   1/36   Generate a Great Person (can be via tech research)

Footnote:
---------
[1]  N is the millenium number we are in, i.e. 4000BC-3000BC=1, 2999BC-2000BC=2,
     1999BC-10000BC=3, 999BC-0AD=4, 1AD-1000AD=5, 1001AD-2000AD=6, >2000AD=7
[2]  Barbarians units/cities are allowed
[3]  It is okay if we offer only peace treaty
[4]  The unit must be identified at the begining

The List of Punishments

If we fail to accomplish an objective within 30 turns, we are punished, The punishment is determined by a dice roll.

Roll   Punishment
----   ----------
 1.    Gift city to opponent we have worst relations with [1][2]
 2.    Whip all cities [3]
 3.    Disband 3 units with highest combat strength.
 4.    Change all Civics to the most basic ones [4]
 5.    Declare War on most powerful Civ [1]
 6.    Cancel open borders with all Civs [1][5]

Footnote:
---------
[1]  We escape punishment if we have not met any AI ;)
[2]  We escape punishment if AI does not want any city
[3]  We must revolt to slavery if available.  We escape punishment if it is not.
      If city is not whippable, it must be whipped as it becomes whippable.
[4]  Eg: Free Market -> Decentralization.  May change back after cool-off period.
[5]  Last at least 10 turns

After the punishment was fulfilled, the roll for next RNGod's task would start. For instance, if the punishment was "4: change civics", the roll for next objkective starts after Anarchy. If the punishment was "5: Declare War", then roll for objective starts after the war is declared.


The Dice

These are standard 6-sided dice. If you don't have (OrIginal: a son who owns a Monopoly set) friend-of-wife like rex_tyranus does, you may consider the virtual dice roller here, courtesy of rex. But rolling real dice might be part of the fun.


Roster
-- GreyFox
-- Danski
-- rex_tyranus
-- mucco
-- n0xie
-- omni_paul


I will start the game soon. I will play 30 turns, Danski, rex, and mucco will play 20 each, 0xie and omni_paul 15 each. 10 turns each thereafter.

Normal SG ethiquette applies. Standard 24hrs to post a got it, 48hrs to play and report.

-

 

[omni_paul]

Excellent... looking forward to getting started

 

[GreyFox]

First off, I filled in the player details ... we are the RNG Minions!!!

Next randomized map type .... wait a minute, WTH??? there is no random map type!!!

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/fox02-WTH-no-random-map.jpg

Ok, easily solved. I counted there are 20 map types, and headed over to http://www.irony.com/igroll.html to roll a 20-faced dice

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/9r3yf0x/fox02-WTH-map-roll.jpg

17 ... Hmm... its Tilted-Axis ... so far so good ... and the launch:

Looks good, right? Oh by the way, I rolled a 6 for raging barbarians (even=off).

And guess what face did the RNGod gave us? The prettiest one! ...
(It is confirmed, the RNGod is properly addressed as a "He" or "Him" or "His" alright!! ).

And our surroundings:

I will play my 30 turns later tonight, give you guys some time to moose over the map. I would have settled in place.

The save, if you want to take a look:

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

Excellent on the tilted_axis. It's actually the most random landmass script. RNGod on His minions.

 

[omni_paul]

Ooh I haven't played tilted axis yet. I think that's the only map I haven't messed around with. Should be fun

Very nice starting position. Clearly our dear devoted lord loves his little minions. 2 food and 1 luxury in the phat cross. Though I'd be inclined to move the scout 2xSW to see if there's anything tasty in that direction before we settle. If we can move off the forest and pick up another resource that way, well saving a forest for future choppage is always nice.

Starting with hunting and mining... what do you guys think... BW first?

 

[Dantski]

Scout either SW or NE to see if theres any fish or clam off the coast too!

Quick question, how long do punishments last? For example if we fail our first task and draw basic Civics swap, keeping base Civics all game would be too much of a hindrance. I was thinking that we're allowed back to 'normal' after a successful task is completed.

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

I'd take the scout to pop the hut before settling. Popping the hut with the first city only gives us gold, in my experience. Scout, though, might net us a tech, warrior, map, whatever.

Regarding the length of punishment, most are immediate effect. The civics switch and "cancel open borders" are the only ones that lasts. In those cases, my vote is 10 turns.

Edit: Thanks to GreyFox for editing the first post to include the link to updated goals and punishments. Easy reference for the dice rolls.

 

[n0xie]

The two food bonusses are nice: we're going to need them with so much plains around. I'd move the scout first to see a bit more but if nothing interesting comes up, settle in place seems good enough.

 

[GreyFox]

The Founding of Moscow

Well, the RNG-Minions doesn't really know what to do, without the guidance of their RNGod. Some minions say move SW, some say move NE, so confusing

Thus, the scout does the unexpected: move up the hill! Moving higher will bring you nearer to God, and perhaps He would give us guidance! (read: moving up a hill enables you to see 2 to 3 tiles away) Sure enough, a hint of stones was spotted!

This must be a sign from the O-So-Wise RNGod!

Without further delay, the settler was moved two tiles east, and Moscow, the costal city was founded.

Work immediately begun with another scout, and since we need guidance from the RNGod, Mysticism was pursued next.

The closest hut gives us 42 . RNGod is smiling on us!

Further scouting exploration bags us 38 and experience from fighting wolves.

Then, Mysticsm was learnt, and the pursue of praying to the RNGod begins ....

Getting Closer to the RNGod

On the same turn, Buddhism was FIADL ... blah... that is just one golden statue of the RNGod ... we shall pursue the RNGod in our own ways!

And thus, Polythesim was researched.

Meanwhile, our scout continues to report discovery of goodies bestowed to us by the RNGod, ranging from 38 , maps, to experiences from fighting wolves and lions.

And then, we founded the true Manifestation of the RNGod ...

Yes, Objective met!!!


First Task from the RNGod

Our prophets immediately commence prayers to the RNGod, and sure enough, the funny siz-sided stones the prophets thrown reveal a message from Him:

"3x1=3 -- Learn a tech that enables a wonder or a religion"

Dang, we'd just learnt one!

Ok, let's see which tech will enables us a wonder ...

Masonry seems like a good choice... let's start that.

But wait, this is only 7 turns away ...

Okay, why don't we get ourselves argiculture and wheel first? That will still leaves us sufficient time to cmpletes the first task.

Let's just do that ....

-- To Be Continued --​