Franco will move.

[Zardnaar]

It was easy to supply Vietnam by land. Spain has a land border with 1 country, France. Germany and Italy weren't naval superpowers.

It's essentially a war dec though.

They could have just blocked the USSRs stuff.

Also Italy wasn't allied with Germany in 1936. Intercepting their shipments is problematic.

Had Italy left the league of nation's I can't remember.

 

[Zardnaar]

You said that the regime died with him, after the transition the Movimiento and Francoism was still the rulling gang.
I do know pretty well the reasons, but I don't care about them, I am not going to judge transition spaniard's, because I know it was not easy, but come on, don't tell me that Franco's regime ended with him, because it is absolutelly false

Parts of the regime survived did Spain go Democratic 75 though?

Obviously his party survived.

And yes former authoritarian regimes can win elections.

 

[AmazonQueen]

It's essentially a war dec though.

They could have just blocked the USSRs stuff.

Also Italy wasn't allied with Germany in 1936. Intercepting their shipments is problematic.

Had Italy left the league of nation's I can't remember.

Both Italy and Germany were breaking the Non-Intervention Agreement. It would have been no harder to block shipments from Italy than Germany.
You're supporting a policy that did nothing to prevent Germany and Italy helping Franco's coup, convinced the Fascists, Stalin and the neutral powers that France and the UK were weak and wouldn't fight, and meant that although Spain didn't join the Axis powers its economy served their needs in WWII.
By all means point out that there weren't any easy options but don't defend an utterly failed policy.

 

[MaryKB]

This thread title makes my head hurt a little ... it makes me think Mr Franco's going to be moving under his own power, rather than someone else moving him ...

 

[Josu]

This thread title makes my head hurt a little ... it makes me think Mr Franco's going to be moving under his own power, rather than someone else moving him ...

I wish he had moved being alive

 

[Lexicus]

The Socialist have won, thank the lord they didn't win the civil war.

...wow

@Zardnaar: you've removed all doubt, you're a fascist

 

[Broken_Erika]

not cool.

 

[Lexicus]

not cool.

Yeah, it's funny that someone can write a post saying "I think it is good that Francisco Franco murdered hundreds of thousands of people" and apparently that's totally "cool".

 

[Josu]

Yeah, it's funny that someone can write a post saying "I think it is good that Francisco Franco murdered hundreds of thousands of people" and apparently that's totally "cool".

You forget the part in which Franco's regime buried some of the murdered people and then over this graves builds a mausoleum where later Franco is buried

 

[Lexicus]

You forget the part in which Franco's regime buried some of the murdered people and then over this graves builds a mausoleum where later Franco is buried

Well, I didn't know about that, but it sounds like it's in poor taste.

 

[Josu]

Well, I didn't know about that, but it sounds like it's in poor taste.

What happened is that the mausoleum was built by political prisioners. They were shot and buried there. Indeed it is on poor taste.
That's why they are moving Franco

 

[Lexicus]

That's why they are moving Franco

Where are they moving him? Dumped unceremoniously into a random landfill somewhere is my hope but I guess they'll give him a real grave and stuff since the Spanish state is still apparently riddled with fascists, some of whom even served under the man.

 

[Josu]

Where are they moving him? Dumped unceremoniously into a random landfill somewhere is my hope but I guess they'll give him a real grave and stuff since the Spanish state is still apparently riddled with fascists, some of whom even served under the man.

To the Madrid municipal cementery.
The "real grave" is the one on which he has been for more than 40 years as it is considered a regime monument

 

[Lexicus]

To the Madrid municipal cementery.
The "real grave" is the one on which he has been for more than 40 years as it is considered a regime monument

Are you saying the "real grave" is where he's being moved from? Will his gravesite in the Madrid cemetery be marked in some way? I know that many graves of famous Nazis went unmarked so they could not serve as sacred sites for neonazis.

 

[Josu]

Are you saying the "real grave" is where he's being moved from? Will his gravesite in the Madrid cemetery be marked in some way? I know that many graves of famous Nazis went unmarked so they could not serve as sacred sites for neonazis.

Yes, where he is today is a kind of national park in which about 30k people who died during the civil war is buried, a big ammount of them are not identified.
It was built by political prisioners who were forced to work there, those prisioners who died during the constructions (illness or shooting) where buried there as well in unmarked graves. The central element of this national park is Franco's grave.

 

[Lexicus]

Yes, where he is today is a kind of national park in which about 30k people who died during the civil war is buried, a big ammount of them are not identified.
It was built by political prisioners who were forced to work there, those prisioners who died during the constructions (illness or shooting) where buried there as well in unmarked graves. The central element of this national park is Franco's grave.

Okay yeah, I just meant presumably he will be transferred to a marked gravesite of some kind ("real grave") rather than being dumped into a random hole in the ground or some such.

 

[Josu]

Okay yeah, I just meant presumably he will be transferred to a marked gravesite of some kind ("real grave") rather than being dumped into a random hole in the ground or some such.

I do know that he is moving to Madrid cementery, but I am not sure whether they are moving to a family crypt or wherever.

 

[innonimatu]

I might be getting mixed up with Portugal next door and Salazar.

Franco died and Spain transitioned to democracy iirc.

No, we only got rid of Salazar's regime years after his death, when left-wing (for a change, in the world at the time!) military officers did a coup and kicked out that rotten regime.

Franco certainly planned succession and continuity for his regime. He met two troubles: his intended heir was blown to bits by ETA, and the portuguese example of a similar dictatorship being actually so rotten that a rebellion met with widespread popular support and toppled it without a real fight scared the crap out of many top brass in franco's regime. They decided that "transitioning" with most of their personal privileges intact and no examination of their abuse of power for decades was a good idea. The also got rid of their african colonies real quick rather that face the threat of an unpopular war and rebellion by lower officers.

 

[Josu]

. They decided that "transitioning" with most of their personal privileges intact and no examination of their abuse of power for decades was a good idea.

This is a really good point.
In 1977 an Amnesty law was promulgated which freed political prisioners that did not participate in events that endagered people and guaranteed impunity for those who participated in crimes during the regime.
Anyone judged and enjailed would be free if he was not judged for a blood crime. Those who were not judged will not be prosecuted in the future.
Obviously previous to this law, oppositors, violent or not, wer judged, while torturers and repressors were not.
This means that those who killed, kidnaped or tortured oppositors were never judged because of their crimes, and never will be.

 

[Zardnaar]

This is a really good point.
In 1977 an Amnesty law was promulgated which freed political prisioners that did not participate in events that endagered people and guaranteed impunity for those who participated in crimes during the regime.
Anyone judged and enjailed would be free if he was not judged for a blood crime. Those who were not judged will not be prosecuted in the future.
Obviously previous to this law, oppositors, violent or not, wer judged, while torturers and repressors were not.
This means that those who killed, kidnaped or tortured oppositors were never judged because of their crimes, and never will be.

Usually they make deals to prevent revenge bloodlettings.

This is isn't left/right but normally part of the process towards transitioning towards democracy.

I mean you're trying to talk the elites into changing it standing down.

They're not going to do that if they're going to get killed or thrown in jail although a few of the worst ones tend to take the fall.

South Africa had their truth and reconciliation commission, most members of the Stasi in East Germany for away scout free, most members of the Khmer Rogue didn't get charged.

Columbia and FARC is another example.

IRA and UK perhaps.

So many people are often compromised especially if they've been at war. You either forgive and forget or keep doing what you're doing but often both sides end up looking for a way out.

If they don't well there's plenty of examples if the resort to all out war or if one side eventually wind (and the losers get it in the neck).

Only a small fraction of the Nazis got prosecuted they went after the ones giving the orders. 10% of the population was directly compromised. Probably half or more indirectly (drafted into army, worked in factories, worked on the railyards etc,).

So if you executed every member of the Nazi party what happens when their kids grow up? Some cultures they killed the kids hell Nazis used that logic with the Jewish children.

If the CCP fell tomorrow what do you do?