Franco will move.

[Thorgalaeg]

No, we only got rid of Salazar's regime years after his death, when left-wing (for a change, in the world at the time!) military officers did a coup and kicked out that rotten regime.

Franco certainly planned succession and continuity for his regime. He met two troubles: his intended heir was blown to bits by ETA, and the portuguese example of a similar dictatorship being actually so rotten that a rebellion met with widespread popular support and toppled it without a real fight scared the crap out of many top brass in franco's regime. They decided that "transitioning" with most of their personal privileges intact and no examination of their abuse of power for decades was a good idea. The also got rid of their african colonies real quick rather that face the threat of an unpopular war and rebellion by lower officers.

It was just the other way around. There was a rebellion by lower officers precisely for leaving the colonies.

 

[innonimatu]

This is a really good point.
In 1977 an Amnesty law was promulgated which freed political prisioners that did not participate in events that endagered people and guaranteed impunity for those who participated in crimes during the regime.
Anyone judged and enjailed would be free if he was not judged for a blood crime. Those who were not judged will not be prosecuted in the future.
Obviously previous to this law, oppositors, violent or not, wer judged, while torturers and repressors were not.
This means that those who killed, kidnaped or tortured oppositors were never judged because of their crimes, and never will be.

We har a general, Spinola, whom later the local right-wing (withe the usual international support from a certain country...) tried to place in power as dictator by coup after the revolution (a counter-revolution), and who tried to pull that one. He grabbed the office of president and tried to prevent the unconditional and immediate release of political prisoners. The other military officers just disobeyed him, emptied the prisons and made some use of the space to store potentially troublesome police agents until they accepted their fall. Those did got released a while later so there was an (unspoken) amnesty. But they didn't get to keep their positions of power, unlike what happened in Spain. The general turned tail after one of his failed coup attempts and moved to Spain to hide under Franco's skirts. And we got out first democratic election for a constituent assembly, on time as promised by those officers, instead of a constitution dictated by the military of the trash from the former regime.

Spain could have used a more "revolutionary" transition, instead of a "managed" one. It'd probably have reformed into a federal state and not have these problems now.

It was just the other way around. There was a rebellion by lower officers precisely for leaving the colonies.

That was what I said. The colonial war in Portugal being the catalyst that pushed them over the barrier of ingrained subordination to the hierarchy scared the spanish off from attempting to keep their colonies in Africa.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This thread title makes my head hurt a little ... it makes me think Mr Franco's going to be moving under his own power, rather than someone else moving him ...

It's a zombie thing.

 

[Zardnaar]

There's a tendency for authoritarian regimes to build elaborate mausoleums for the dead leaders.

At least they're getting rid of it peacefully, it's time to go Franco bye bye.

 

[Broken_Erika]

It's a zombie thing.

Meanwhile in Spain....

Must....Crush....Communism....Rawr!

 

[Thorgalaeg]

We har a general, Spinola, whom later the local right-wing (withe the usual international support from a certain country...) tried to place in power as dictator by coup after the revolution (a counter-revolution), and who tried to pull that one. He grabbed the office of president and tried to prevent the unconditional and immediate release of political prisoners. The other military officers just disobeyed him, emptied the prisons and made some use of the space to store potentially troublesome police agents until they accepted their fall. Those did got released a while later so there was an (unspoken) amnesty. But they didn't get to keep their positions of power, unlike what happened in Spain. The general turned tail after one of his failed coup attempts and moved to Spain to hide under Franco's skirts. And we got out first democratic election for a constituent assembly, on time as promised by those officers, instead of a constitution dictated by the military of the trash from the former regime.

Spain could have used a more "revolutionary" transition, instead of a "managed" one. It'd probably have reformed into a federal state and not have these problems now.



That was what I said. The colonial war in Portugal being the catalyst that pushed them over the barrier of ingrained subordination to the hierarchy scared the spanish off from attempting to keep their colonies in Africa.

Maybe i expressed it wrong. I used 'for' instead of 'because'.

While Equatorial Guinea got its independence in a very civil way it was leaving the Spanish Sahara At the mercy of Morocco that caused the military unrest.
In fact a decade before Morocco attacked Spanish Sahara and was defeated without much difficulty by a bunch of legionaries stationed there. (Ifni war). Seeing he was not going to be able to make it the direct military way, Hassan II tried the green march trick with unarmed civilians and succeeded, but ultimately the decision was taken by Spain under pressure from USA, France and NATO who were allied with Morocco against Soviet-supported Algeria.

The political decision of retreating from Sahara was taken as an insult by the military and was one of the reasons behind the cup tried by Tejero and Milans del Bosch in 1981.

 

[Josu]

Meanwhile in Spain....

 

[innonimatu]

The political decision of retreating from Sahara was taken as an insult by the military and was one of the reasons behind the cup tried by Tejero and Milans del Bosch in 1981.

I know, those officers thought they could win a war there. The politicians, I believe, knew better that to get into one where guerrillas would be continually replaced and supported across the border. The usual pattern of trying to hold on to direct colonial rule under those conditions in Africa always led to everlasting wars until defeat out of attrition. With political consequences back home.

 

[Josu]

So, the mummy is allready out and in his way to new placement.
As far as I know, no major issues apart from a bunch of facists freaks shoutting "Long live to Franco"

 

[Josu]

Going a bit OT, according to this poll this poll, made by La Sexta TV Channel, the 37.4% of PP voters and 58.5% of Vox voters consider that Franco was not a Dictator.

 

[Lexicus]

Going a bit OT, according to this poll this poll, made by La Sexta TV Channel, the 37.4% of PP voters and 58.5% of Vox voters consider that Franco was not a Dictator.

"We're in trouble"
-Han Solo, Star Wars: the Empire Strikes Back

 

[Zardnaar]

Authoritarian regimes often have a certain level of popular support. Some could probably win free and fair elections.

A similar % wiss the Soviet Union. And then you have Poland,T and Hungary doing whatever.

Democracys not the most stable system of government lol. The problem is the voters

 

[Josu]

"We're in trouble"
-Han Solo, Star Wars: the Empire Strikes Back

And I guess that the VOX voters that consider Franco a dictator are happy with it

 

[Lexicus]

And I guess that the VOX voters that consider Franco a dictator are happy with it

Well, you can take the OP and Zardnaar as basically indicative of the attitude many conservatives have. He may have been a dictator but better him than COMMUNISM

 

[Thorgalaeg]

What happened is that the mausoleum was built by political prisioners. They were shot and buried there. Indeed it is on poor taste.
That's why they are moving Franco

Ehem, that is a myth. There is no evidence of anyone executed in the Valley of the Fallen. Workers were mostly voluntary, most free professionals and also a number of convicts, both political and common, working there voluntary to reduce time in jail (one day working at the valley was equivalent to six days in prison). They even received a small salary and the family was allowed to live there while sons were educated in the monastery (in the most strict Catholicism). In fact only privileged prisoners were allowed to work there. There are registers of only fourteen people dying while building the monument.

The almost 40,000 corpses buried there were brought from +400 civil war mass graves from all around Spain, including people who fought in both sides of the civil war. In fact the bones in the mega mass grave in the crypt are all mixed around. In any case they were executed somewhere else and years later the remains were brought and buried under the giant cross.

 

[Lexicus]

The almost 40,000 corpses buried there were brought from +400 civil war mass graves from all around Spain, including people who fought in both sides of the civil war. In fact the bones in the mega mass grave in the crypt are all mixed around. In any case they were executed somewhere else and years later the remains were brought and buried under the giant cross.

So the truth is somehow even more macabre and evil than the myth

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Well, if you consider that mixing a bunch of bones is worse than killing people, then yes.

 

[Lexicus]

Well, if you consider that mixing a bunch of bones is worse than killing people, then yes.

Yeah, I mean, after all, those people whose bones they mixed died of natural causes, right?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

If you mean they were all killed by Franco i agree with you. Franco direct or indirectly, murdered them all since all died in a civil war started by Franco and others like him who revolted against a democratic regime.

But we were talking about how the Valley of the Fallen was built. There is this myth about it being some sort of death camp comparable to Auschwitz. It was not the case for a long long shot. There were other concentration camps under Franco where forced or prisoner labor was used, but the Valley of the Fallen was among the most soft ones.

 

[Lexicus]

But we were talking about how the Valley of the Fallen was built. There is this myth about it being some sort of death camp comparable to Auschwitz. It was not the case for a long long shot.

I looked it up on Wikipedia and it says fourteen deaths according to official statistics, which you'll have to forgive me for not entirely trusting. But anyway, I find the fact that they evidently dug up some of his victims and moved them to keep him company disgusting. I guess because using up convicts to build the monument at least has an element of utilitarianism to it, while actually going to the trouble of exhuming remains and moving them there is extremely weird death cult behavior