Free Will

Thesis: There is no such thing as free will, because free will is incompatible with neither a deterministic nor a random universe, and because no third alternative exists.

Argument 1: Determinism is incompatible with free will because if an outcome is inevitable, then it cannot be chosen, because choice implies the existence of other options.
Objection 1: Free will is the execution of the intentions of a self-aware being, as resulting from those intentions (This is deterministic, since the first is a result of the latter). A self aware being by nature of being self-aware has wants and intentions.
Response 1: But if the universe is deterministic, there can't be different intentions, so that self-aware being doesn’t have any ability to choose, and thereby does not have free will.

Argument 2: Randomness is incompatible with free will, because a random action cannot be attributed to a being.
Objection 2: A random decision is indistinguishable from a freely willed decision, so it is possible that randomness in the brain is the mechanism of free will.
Response 2: A freely willed choice is not random, but the result of a mix of logic, emotions, and character, all of which are deterministic. If a decision is random, then it cannot be attributed to the things that make up you, namely your character, and resultant behavior.

Argument 3: There is no third alternative besides the above presented; either something has a cause, or it is random.
Objection 3: This is an argument from ignorance. Just because nobody has yet envisioned an alternative, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Response 3: If an event has a cause or is solely a function of time, it is deterministic. If an event doesn’t have any cause, including hidden variables, then it is random by definition.

Conclution: There can be no such thing as free will.

This is good :). However, argument 3 is incorrect. There are in fact two other alternatives. The first is a universe that is both random and causal (that is to say, some events are random, and others have causes), but the random events and the deterministic ones are do not interact. The other possibility is a universe that is both random and causal, where the random events can sometimes cause other events to happen. Conversely, deterministic events can affect the chances at which a random event will occur.

So, here are the four possibilities that we now have:

1. A purely deterministic universe.
2. A purely random universe.
3. A random and deterministic universe, in which the two forces do not influence eachother.
4. A random and deterministic universe in which the random events sometimes have cause other events; events can influence the chances that a random event occurs.​

The only one of these possibilities that would allow free will is the fourth. We already have a name for it. It's called "our universe."
 
This is good :). However, argument 3 is incorrect. There are in fact two other alternatives. The first is a universe that is both random and causal (that is to say, some events are random, and others have causes), but the random events and the deterministic ones are do not interact. The other possibility is a universe that is both random and causal, where the random events can sometimes cause other events to happen. Conversely, deterministic events can affect the chances at which a random event will occur.

So, here are the four possibilities that we now have:

1. A purely deterministic universe.
2. A purely random universe.
3. A random and deterministic universe, in which the two forces do not influence eachother.
4. A random and deterministic universe in which the random events sometimes have cause other events; events can influence the chances that a random event occurs.​

The only one of these possibilities that would allow free will is the fourth. We have a name for it. It's called "our universe."
But your number 4 is really the same as your number 3.
If an event can lead two to different outcomes with odds of 1:2, then that is the same as saying that it can lead to three different outcomes, each with probability of 1/3. Thus causality is separate from randomness.

So an event can have multiple effects, with with equal probability or 1 effect with 100% probability. Neither such event qualifies as free will.
 
But your number 4 is really the same as your number 3.
If an event can lead two to different outcomes with odds of 1:2, then that is the same as saying that it can lead to three different outcomes, each with probability of 1/3. Thus causality is separate from randomness.

No, they are not separate. If there had not been the first event, there would not have been any of the second events. Thus, the first event caused the second event, despite the fact that it was "random." In Universe #3, the random events have no impact whatsoever on, and are not impacted by, anything.

So an event can have multiple effects, with with equal probability or 1 effect with 100% probability. Neither such event qualifies as free will.

I never said that this qualifies as free will. I said that it allows free will.
 
I think you know perfectly well what chaos and random mean and I'm getting tired of people talking logos babble that sounds remedial in its application, we don't learn this nonsense, stop expecting everyone to here's a simple English explanation for non logic students who can read.

Quantum mechanics is chaotic at the most fundamental level, there is no past or future, thus free will must exist. Got it yet or do you want a friggin' pie chart? Honestly it's not that hard to grasp, check out the dictionary definition of random and chaotic.:rolleyes:
The definitions.
Chaotic: lacking order
Random:
1)lacking cause and not cyclical
2)lacking order
3)lacking purpose
4)relating to an event with equally likely outcomes.

Lacking purpose assumes free will, so that is not relevant. The others are pretty much equivalent. If something lacks a cause then it must be either chaotic or cyclical. since cyclical is out, it must be chaotic. The equal outcomes is a specific case of randomness.

"Quantum mechanics is chaotic at the most fundamental level, there is no past or future, thus free will must exist."
Lack of past or future means that there is free will. Quite frankly that does not follow.
I'm also not sure what you are trying to say. Past and future may be invariable, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I can easily find a reference to QM involving time: an antiparticle is a particle traveling backwards in time (may be paraphrased) -- Richard Feyman, QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter
 
So, here are the four possibilities that we now have:

1. A purely deterministic universe.
2. A purely random universe.
3. A random and deterministic universe, in which the two forces do not influence eachother.
4. A random and deterministic universe in which the random events sometimes have cause other events; events can influence the chances that a random event occurs.
The only one of these possibilities that would allow free will is the fourth. We already have a name for it. It's called "our universe."

This sums up my position beautifully. Thank you.
 
You keep talking about "modal logic" as if it some how validates you claim, but it doesn't. Modal logic assumes certain axioms to be true, it order for it to apply. If those axioms are not true in a given situation, that means that modal logic does not apply.

Determinism is the theory that every action has a measurable reaction -- each cause has one effect. The inverse is also true, each effect has only one proximate cause. So a cause is a necessary and sufficient condition for it's effect. Therefore, if something happens a certain way, we can

Your post got cut off there, I think. How were you going to finish that thought?

As for the axioms of modal logic - perhaps they don't apply, but modal logic was developed specifically to handle assertions of possibility and impossibility, necessity and contingency. Anyway, you guys are the ones asserting that a logical contradiction exists between determinism and free will. I am the one denying that such a contradiction exists. If you guys are right, there is some valid proof of "if determinism is true, there's no free will." If I'm right, there is no such proof. It's unreasonable to demand that I go through every conceivable proof-attempt and refute it - the burden should be on you guys to construct the proof. Use any logic system you want (if it's esoteric, like I guess modal logic may be, it should come with some explanation of why it applies.)

No, the burden is on you to explain in English how you can reconsile your view of determinism with your idea that in a fully deterministic universe there could be more than 1 future.

When describing determinism you concede that there can only be one future.. but then you contradict that when attempting to say that free will is compatible with determinism.

OK, I'll give it a shot. Be careful with the phrase "there can be more than one future". That almost sounds like many-worlds interpretation of QM, where multiple futures all actually happen.

What determinism says is that for any two times, the laws of nature posit a definitive 1:1 mapping between states of the universe at those times. If the state of the universe at time 1 is A, then the state at time 2 is X; if B, then Y; if C, then Z, etc. It can't happen that one half of one of these pairs happens without the other. But, since there is no necessity about A or B or C, there is no necessity about X or Y or Z. And vice versa: since there is no necessity about X or Y or Z, there is no necessity about A, B, C.

Notice that I didn't specify which time is earlier, and which is later. On most deterministic theories that have been seriously proposed for physics, determinism is bi-directional. Later events plus laws of nature entail a specification of earlier events, just as much as the other way around. This raises the interesting question: if you're not worried about the correspondence between future events and the choice you're making right now, why worry about the correspondence with past events? Suppose someone 100 years from now writes, "On Feb 12 2007, warpus did X", and this sentence is true. That doesn't conflict with your free will - does it? So why would it conflict with your free will that, in principle, someone with an awful lot of knowledge 100 years ago could have written that sentence?
 
You have a choice.

move your eyes to the left or move your eyes to the right.

Just like the water droplet on the rooftop, it will roll to the left or right.

Unlike the water, you have control which way your eye moves.

There is no conditioning which will determine which way you will move them.

All other actions can be based on this principle.

free will exists.
 
What determinism says is that for any two times, the laws of nature posit a definitive 1:1 mapping between states of the universe at those times. If the state of the universe at time 1 is A, then the state at time 2 is X; if B, then Y; if C, then Z, etc. It can't happen that one half of one of these pairs happens without the other. But, since there is no necessity about A or B or C, there is no necessity about X or Y or Z. And vice versa: since there is no necessity about X or Y or Z, there is no necessity about A, B, C.

No, determinism claims that for universe A at time t, referred to as A(t), there can be only one A(t+x), for any positive integer x.

only one!!

no choices

no free will

Your example of looking back at history and seeing one path doesn't even make sense. Of course there's going to be one path... that doesn't mean anything.
 
According to Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of the Universe, QM is inconsistent with general relativity. So it doesn't particularly worry me that Bohm's theory is also inconsistent with relativity.

By QET did you mean QFT, quantum field theory? All I've heard is that it's unknown how (and might be impossible) to derive the predictions of QFT from Bohm's theory. Which is different from saying that Bohm's theory gives opposite predictions from QFT - it might be that some supplemental theory is needed. Which makes the theory dubious, but not dead.

I'm not saying that Bohm's theory is the truth, or even that it's a leading theory - only that it can't be ruled out.

QFT does work with Special relativity and GR though, it's only the nature of gravity and its effects on spacial geometry that tend to throw a spanner in the works, unlike Bohmian mechanics which has to pretty much ignore SR and GR altogether to produce a cogent theory. All that QM lacks is a good mathematical application of large macro objects in motion dynamics, this is not a reason to lump it in with Bohmian mechanics.

Quantum mechanics spectacular success in predicting behaviours at the fundamental seems to suggest that although we haven't got it 100% yet, and there are a few minor details, it's hardly fair to dismiss it on that basis. It would be much like dismissing Newtons laws because Einstein's are more accurate.

That said Quantum electron tunnelling is a QM effect that happens at the very small distances found within the tubuoles of synapses. It is the same effect that limits the size of microchips.

But then I've explained all this before or someone else has, which is why I'm getting annoyed, I expect people to have followed the thread to some degree, which makes peoples confusion understandable, I therefore suggest anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about goes back and looks at the detailed accounts of QM. Or I can link some threads on here where it is explained.

The point is though that without a future predeterminism cannot exist, if there is no point x to move towards then predeterminism is dead, if there is no past then free will is also maintained as there is no causal link between our actions only our fallible memories, and our DNA, and of course if everything about our consciousness is subject to odd quantum fluctuations then this chaotic and unpredictable action in the brain means that not even our actions are subject to behavioural determinism and can make strange leaps, just as in fact our brains do anyway. It would in this situation only take one quantum event to change the human brain from where it was headed ever, to introduce a completely random picture and not random as in it still could lead to a, but random as in choices which have no foreseeable results, in other words choice not be subject to predeterminism in any way shape or form, but choice unbound by time, choice completely unlimited by a future or a set path, pure choice.
 
The flaw in Souron's argument is that the definition of "random" is being switched.

First it is defined as being "non-deterministic" - this is the definition used to show that no third alternative exist. However, in Argument 2, he then uses a more everyday meaning of "random", which is synonymous with "unbiased random" or "without any direction whatsoever".

This is just like when creationists write off evolution as "nothing can come from randomness" - just because something is random doesn't mean it is the same as throwing a die. It's more like throwing a weighted die - by the strict definition, a weighted die is random, but by the more everyday meaning, a weighted die is seen as not random.

Argument 2: Randomness is incompatible with free will, because a random action cannot be attributed to a being.
Objection 2: A random decision is indistinguishable from a freely willed decision, so it is possible that randomness in the brain is the mechanism of free will.
Response 2: A freely willed choice is not random, but the result of a mix of logic, emotions, and character, all of which are deterministic. If a decision is random, then it cannot be attributed to the things that make up you, namely your character, and resultant behavior.
And so clearly you can have a process which is random, but nonethless influenced by determinstic things. Also I would argue that our conscious mind is not inherently logical, but we sometimes try to follow a logical argument. Emotions are things which influence us rather than being inherently part of free will (I don't choose how to feel), and character is just a description of how we behave, so none of those are relevant either.

Any computer AI which uses a rand() in its logic would qualify as an example - it's non-deterministic, but doesn't behave in a "random" way, according to the non-strict definition. To say that because there is some randomness means the behaviour can't be attributed to the programming is not true at all.

To summarise, yes there can only be determinstic events or non-deterministic events, but clearly, free will would be a subset of non-determinstic events. Replacing "non-deterministic" with the word "random" in that sentence does not change this fact.
 
[...] unlike Bohmian mechanics which has to pretty much ignore SR and GR altogether to produce a cogent theory.

As far as I know - and I admit my knowledge is very limited - there doesn't seem to be any way to use Bohmian nonlocality to send useful FTL signals, so I'd have to say that the damage to special relativity is pretty slight. Anyway, are you saying that Bohmian mechanics can be ruled out altogether? And for that matter, how about the Everett interpretation, which is also deterministic (and that isn't even a different theory, just a different interpretation)?

If such views can't be ruled out altogether, do you really want to hang your theory of free will on their denial? I don't.

That said Quantum electron tunnelling is a QM effect that happens at the very small distances found within the tubuoles of synapses. [...]
But then I've explained all this before or someone else has,

And as others have explained before in reply, it's not established that the microtubules have any effect at the macroscopic levels of thoughts and decisions, speech and action.

The point is though that without a future predeterminism cannot exist, if there is no point x to move towards then predeterminism is dead, if there is no past then free will is also maintained as there is no causal link between our actions only our fallible memories

This "no past, no future" idea of yours is interesting, but I could use some links on the topic. It seems contrary to GR, which seems to imply that time is pretty much just another dimension rather like space - unless you want to say that space is unreal too?

Anyway: dude, I'm just as much a free will enthusiast as you are - more so in fact. I don't hold the existence of free will hostage to arcane interpretational disputes over QM and cutting-edge neurological hypotheses; I boil it down to the well-evidenced fact that the intentions of self-aware beings have an effect on the world. With friends like you, free will doesn't need enemies :p
 
No, determinism claims that for universe A at time t, referred to as A(t), there can be only one A(t+x), for any positive integer x.

I think you're confusing determinism with the movie Highlander ("in the end, there can be only one.") ;) But seriously: determinism doesn't say, of any individual time, that only one state of the universe is possible at that time. It only makes statements of possibility/impossibility about combinations of different times.

Most human beings feel that where causality is concerned, events at earlier times hold a power over later times, but not vice-versa. But that's just a subjective feeling, not part of the deterministic theories themselves. I suggest that you're projecting your subjective feelings about causation onto deterministic theories, resulting in a misinterpretation.

Your example of looking back at history and seeing one path doesn't even make sense. Of course there's going to be one path... that doesn't mean anything.

Yes of course there's only going to be one path, and of course that doesn't threaten free will - but explain that second "of course" anyway. Explain it to me like I'm a 6-year-old, and then I'll explain to you why the in-principle-forseeability of the future doesn't threaten free will either. And it will be the same exact explanation, with a few obvious word swaps ("past" for "future", etc.).
 
The definitions.
Chaotic: lacking order
Random:
1)lacking cause and not cyclical
2)lacking order
3)lacking purpose
4)relating to an event with equally likely outcomes.

Lacking purpose assumes free will, so that is not relevant. The others are pretty much equivalent. If something lacks a cause then it must be either chaotic or cyclical. since cyclical is out, it must be chaotic. The equal outcomes is a specific case of randomness.

"Quantum mechanics is chaotic at the most fundamental level, there is no past or future, thus free will must exist."
Lack of past or future means that there is free will. Quite frankly that does not follow.
I'm also not sure what you are trying to say. Past and future may be invariable, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I can easily find a reference to QM involving time: an antiparticle is a particle traveling backwards in time (may be paraphrased) -- Richard Feyman, QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter

I'm afraid Feynman said not that antiparticles travel back in time, they travel in a way a matter particle would if it was going back in time, in other words their motion is the inverse of a matter particle, forward in time but in the complete opposite or image reversed. This is a common fallacy, as far as physics knows they have never seen a particle travel back in time. If you look at the track of an antimatter particle across a bubble tank it reveals itself in the same way as a matter particle does, it just does so in an opposite fashion, ie it is travelling forward in time from point a to point b.

Given my posits, then free will does exist, because nothing leads to anything or from anything, it just is. Thus any decision you make may follow the laws of physics, but they are not predestined to lead anywhere, because of the chaos of the quantum. There is no predetermination in quantum mechanics only complete and utter disorder, anything given enough time can and will happen on any scale nano or macro.

Ayatollah Bohmian mechanics is not something to throw out at all it's usefull in particle representation, but it is not as accepted a picture of QM as the Copenhagen Interpritation for good reasons,light wave/particles do not behave in a deterministic way, unless the wave is decohered. Given that Sauron has made a claim that since there is no other other predeterminism must exist, I have given a scientific claim that there is another other, thus his hypothesis could well be wrong as he's making apriori assumptions.

If I went Many World interpritation on you then you'd have to concede that free will exists as all possibilities exist in different worlds, but there is no proof of that it is pure philosophy although based on the tenets of the Copenhagen Interpretation and EPR and BEll's theory all being correct and then extrapolating them to IMO absurd conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Outline

Although several versions of MWI have been proposed since Hugh Everett's original work,[1] they contain one key idea: the equations of physics that model the time evolution of systems without embedded observers are sufficient for modelling systems which do contain observers; in particular there is no observation-triggered wavefunction collapse which the Copenhagen interpretation proposes. The exact form of the quantum dynamics modelled, be it the non-relativistic Schrödinger equation, relativistic quantum field theory or some form of quantum gravity or string theory, does not alter the content of MWI since MWI is a metatheory applicable to all quantum theories and hence to all credible fundamental theories of physics. MWI's main conclusion is that the universe (or multiverse in this context) is composed of a quantum superposition of very many, possibly infinitely many, increasingly divergent, non-communicating parallel universes or quantum worlds.

The idea of MWI originated in Hugh Everett's Princeton Ph.D. thesis "The Theory of the Universal Wavefunction",[5] developed under his thesis advisor John Archibald Wheeler, a shorter summary of which was published in 1957 entitled "Relative State Formulation of Quantum Mechanics" (Wheeler contributed the title "relative state";[9] Everett originally called his approach the "Correlation Interpretation"). The phrase "many worlds" is due to Bryce DeWitt,[5] who was responsible for the wider popularisation of Everett's theory, which had been largely ignored for the first decade after publication. DeWitt's phrase "many-worlds" has become so much more popular than Everett's "Universal Wavefunction" or Everett-Wheeler's "Relative State Formulation" that many forget that this is only a difference of terminology; the content of all three papers is the same.

The many-worlds interpretation shares many similarities with later, other "post-Everett" interpretations of quantum mechanics which also use decoherence to explain the process of measurement or wavefunction collapse. MWI treats the other histories or worlds as real since it regards the universal wavefunction as the "basic physical entity"[10] or "the fundamental entity, obeying at all times a determinstic wave equation".[11] The other decoherent interpretations, such as many histories, consistent histories, the Existential Interpretation etc, either regard the extra quantum worlds as metaphorical in some sense, or are agnostic about their reality; it is sometimes hard to distinguish between the different varieties. MWI is distinguished by two qualities: it assumes realism, which it assigns to the wavefunction, and it has the minimal formal structure possible, rejecting any hidden variables, quantum potential, any form of a collapse postulate (i.e. Copenhagenism) or mental postulates (such as the many-minds interpretation makes).

Many worlds is often referred to as a theory, rather than just an interpretation, by those who propose that many worlds can make testable predictions or that all the other, non-MWI interpretations, are inconsistent, illogical or unscientific in their handling of measurements; Hugh Everett argued that his formulation was a metatheory, since it made statements about other interpretations of quantum theory; that it was the "only completely coherent approach to explaining both the contents of quantum mechanics and the appearance of the world"[1].

[edit] Wavefunction collapse and the problem of interpretation

As with the other interpretations of quantum mechanics, the many-worlds interpretation is motivated by behavior that can be illustrated by the double-slit experiment. When particles of light (or anything else) are passed through the double slit, a calculation assuming wave-like behavior of light is needed to identify where the particles are likely to be observed. Yet when the particles are observed in this experiment, they appear as particles (i.e. at definite places) and not as non-localized waves.

The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics proposed a process of "collapse" in which an indeterminate quantum system would probabilistically collapse down onto, or select, just one determinate outcome to "explain" this phenomenon of observation. Wavefunction collapse was widely regarded as artificial and ad-hoc, so an alternative interpretation in which the behavior of measurement could be understood from more fundamental physical principles was considered desirable.

Everett's Ph.D. work provided such an alternative interpretation. Everett noted that for a composite system (for example that formed by a particle interacting with a measuring apparatus, or more generally by a subject (the "observer") observing an object (the "observed" system)) the statement that a subsystem (i.e. the observer or the observed) has a well-defined state is meaningless -- in modern parlance the subsystem states have become entangled -- we can only specify the state of one subsystem relative to the state of the other subsystem, i.e. the state of the observer and the observed are correlated. This led Everett to derive from the unitary, deterministic dynamics alone (i.e. without assuming wavefunction collapse) the notion of a relativity of states of one subsystem relative to another.

Everett noticed that the unitary, deterministic dynamics alone decreed that after an observation is made each element of the quantum superposition of the combined subject-object wavefunction contains two relative states: a "collapsed" object state and an associated observer who has observed the same collapsed outcome; what the observer sees and the state of the object are correlated. The subsequent evolution of each pair of relative subject-object states proceeds with complete indifference as to the presence or absence of the other elements, as if wavefunction collapse has occurred, which has the consequence that later observations are always consistent with the earlier observations. Thus the appearance of the object's wavefunction's collapse has emerged from the unitary, deterministic theory itself. (This answered Einstein's early criticism of quantum theory, that the theory should define what is observed, not for the observables to define the theory[12] .)

Since Everett stopped doing research in theoretical physics shortly after obtaining his Ph.D., much of the elaboration of his ideas was carried out by other researchers and forms the basis of much of the decoherent approach to quantum measurement.
 
But seriously: determinism doesn't say, of any individual time, that only one state of the universe is possible at that time. It only makes statements of possibility/impossibility about combinations of different times.

That's not what I said. Determinism says this:

If you have a Universe, and denote it by A(t), then there can be only one A(t+x), where x is a positive integer, and t denotes time.

In layman's terms (if that wasn't layman enough), this means that in a deterministic Universe, there is only one path that the future can take - and if you had access to all the data, and enough time, you would be able to work out what this path would be.

That's what determinism means.. if you have a deterministic mechanism, you'll be able to work out exactly what happens to the mechanism at some future point in time.. provided you have all the resources to do so.

So if the Universe is deterministic it can only take one path.

Ayatollah So said:
Yes of course there's only going to be one path, and of course that doesn't threaten free will - but explain that second "of course" anyway. Explain it to me like I'm a 6-year-old, and then I'll explain to you why the in-principle-forseeability of the future doesn't threaten free will either.

It's not the forseeability at all, that's the problem. It's the fact that there would only be one path. It's not your ability to predict what is going to happen that smacks in the face of free will. It's that there can be only one path and thus no room for free will. Illusion of free will? Sure. Free will itself? Impossible. Would there be a difference, from the point of view of a creature like me or you? Who knows.. but that's not the real question here.
 
Free will exists, thats all there is to it.
 
Well thanks for clearing that up, shows over guys :)

No problem! :)

I had free will to write that. Nobody forced me to, there was no bias towards me writing that. I just pure and plain had free will to write that.
 
No problem! :)

I had free will to write that. Nobody forced me to, there was no bias towards me writing that. I just pure and plain had free will to write that.

Cool:) Well good luck with the free will thing hope it works out.
 
In layman's terms (if that wasn't layman enough), this means that in a deterministic Universe, there is only one path that the future can take

But that doesn't follow, and it's no part of the definition of determinism. And it's not significantly different from my misunderstanding of what you had said. If there were only one path the universe could take, then for each time in that timespan, there would be only one possible state of the universe at that time.

Neither past, present, and future are specified by the typical deterministic theory. Only certain relations between them are specified. And for bidirectional deterministic theories, it makes just as much sense (or nonsense) to say that your past is implied by your actions now, as to say that your actions now are implied by your past.

It's not the forseeability at all, that's the problem. It's the fact that there would only be one path.

That's not fact, that's illusion - if you mean only one possible path. If you mean only one actual path, that's not a problem (and if it were, the only known theory to solve it would be Many Worlds Interpretation, which, ironically enough, is deterministic.)
 
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