French Secularism

[HannibalBarka]

One last comment. As Gabriel Cohn-Bendit said it, in France, the school is to be secular not the students.
Banning headscarve or kippa wearing students from public school is not going to help them, their parents are going to put them in a religious school. What's the gain ?
Teaching them other point of views will give them a better understanding of this world.

 

[Enemy Ace]

France is a backward country that is bound to crumble.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Originally posted by Enemy Ace
France is a backward country that is bound to crumble.

With all due respect, I really dout that

 

[Enemy Ace]

Of course, you do. Just as I would never expect my favorite ball club to lose a game.

 

[Cilpot]

Originally posted by Enemy Ace
France is a backward country that is bound to crumble.

Right, well, ok then

 

[nihilistic]

Originally posted by EzInKy
Some of those supporters may even become so sympathetic to their cause that they themselves decide to join them in their faith, similar to the events that occurred with Rome and Christianity.

I'm sorry, but that is definitely one of the more pathetic reasons for joining a faith. It's quite indistinguishable from the reasoning of "I'm believing in it because i think everyone else is". I would have no respect for someone who does this that.

 

[EzInKy]

Originally posted by nihilistic


I'm sorry, but that is definitely one of the more pathetic reasons for joining a faith. It's quite indistinguishable from the reasoning of "I'm believing in it because i think everyone else is". I would have no respect for someone who does this that.

It may be, but it happens. The reasoning may go something like "they hold on to their faith despite what society thinks of them so there just may be something to it."

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by tonberry
A law like this will probably be adopted soon in Quebec. I agree with the French, religion have no buisness in school.

Do human beings have buisness in the schools?

In my opinion that's going too far. One thing is secularism, another different thing is anti-religion. People should be free to express themselves and not hide their believes. Even in schools. They will give children the impression that there is something wrong with religion, while the ideal would be to allow all of them to show their religion freely so that it becomes so normal that it doesn't really matter anymore. This law is not going to promote children to be open about religion.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Jorge
In my opinion that's going too far. One thing is secularism, another different thing is anti-religion.

As I already said, it's just as forbidden to promote atheism than any other religious belief.


I'm astounded as how people can't understand this simple thing :

PROMOTING RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL OPINION IS FORBIDDEN INTO STATE-RUN BUILDINGS.

Final point.
It's not "anti-religious" or "anti-political". It's "the state guarantee the freedom of EVERY religion and EVERY political opinion, and to do so it has to stay completely neutral".

You're forbidden to stand into an official building and shout slogans for your religion/political party.
You're forbidden to put religious and political tracts and pamphlets on the walls of these official buildings.
Samely, you're forbidden to promote political/religious PERSONNAL OPINIONS while into these buildings.

State-run buildings are religious-free and political-free areas. End of argument. If you want to show the world you're socialist, right-wing, muslim, jew, atheist or christian, then you can, but not inside official building.
It's not any restriction of freedom, it's just keeping personnal opinions out of state business.

 

[Eklektikos]

I think the idea is more to promote the idea that everyone is basically the same (i.e. human individuals) rather than encouraging culturally homogenous and potentially antagonistic cliques to form. Rather than being anti-religion it seems to me to that the intention is simply to prevent people from hiding behind their religion during their formative years and so make it harder for them to see those from different cultural backgrounds as "other". How effective the proposed law would prove in achieving this I don't know, but I have few qualms with the intent.

EDIT: x-post.

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Akka


I'm astounded as how people can't understand this simple thing :

PROMOTING RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL OPINION IS FORBIDDEN INTO STATE-RUN BUILDINGS.

So you will forbid priest or nuns to enter official buildings, for example (unless they dress 'properly').

You have to realise that this is a non-sense that doesn't help at all. I understand your point, but tell me: is it really useful? What for?

 

[IceBlaZe]

Do I promote boxers by wearing them?
Why don't we forbid that too. Everybody should come commando with a white shirt and white trousers. No wait, that's promoting whiteness.

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Akka

You're forbidden to stand into an official building and shout slogans for your religion/political party.
You're forbidden to put religious and political tracts and pamphlets on the walls of these official buildings.
Samely, you're forbidden to promote political/religious PERSONNAL OPINIONS while into these buildings.

So the children can not talk about politics and religion in the school. Even more, any individual can't takl about politics or religion in public buildings. Does this includes the parlament?


I agree you can't shout slogans in public buildings (in fact you shouln't shout anything because you may bother other people). And you can't put anything in the walls, right. But on yourself? That's different.

 

[IceBlaZe]

PROMOTING RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL OPINION IS FORBIDDEN INTO STATE-RUN BUILDINGS.

Wearing a kippa in Judaism is not promoting Judaism, it is a duty called upon those who do believe in the laws of the hebrew god. Actually, Judaism is (today) a non-missionary religion, so saying that when Jews come to school with a kippa they are trying to promote it is simply put bullcrap.

 

[Speedo]

PC run amok.....

PROMOTING RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL OPINION IS FORBIDDEN INTO STATE-RUN BUILDINGS.

So then you can't teach about religion either, as that would give the impression that the state may support the religion being mentioned.

I can't wait to see how teachers in france plan on filling the holes in history after they pull religion out

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Jorge
So you will forbid priest or nuns to enter official buildings, for example (unless they dress 'properly').

I suppose so.

You have to realise that this is a non-sense that doesn't help at all. I understand your point, but tell me: is it really useful? What for?

It is absolutely not nonsense. It's at the contrary perfectly logical. It's the guarantee that state is the same for everyone, whatever their religious, political, economical opinions.
You're forbidden to publicize your own religion/party in an official building, because it's a neutral ground for everyone. Displaying major religious symbols is another way of publicize your personnal opinions, which have nothing to do in official buildings. So you're forbidden to do it.

Respecting neutral grounds, keeping the public domain out of the battles of private opinions, is something I can perfectly understand, and I value. I wonder why it's a concept that elude so much so many people.

And it has nothing to do with PC. PC is to disguise facts with another names. It's simply drawing the line between the state sphere and the private sphere.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Speedo
PC run amok.....

See post above.

So then you can't teach about religion either, as that would give the impression that the state may support the religion being mentioned.
I can't wait to see how teachers in france plan on filling the holes in history after they pull religion out

You can teach about historical facts and say "these people believed in...". No holes to fill. Facts aren't opinions, in case you didn't notice.

 

[Jorge]

Akka, that law is going to create more problems that the ones that solve, believe me.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

France is fighting a losing battle trying to prevent itself from becoming a Muslim nation. The only way to do that would be to completely halt all immigration from Muslim countries. This business about preventing Muslim women from wearing the scarf is idiotic and counterproductive. All it does is radicalize the percentage of the Muslim population in France that previously was busily assimilating. Muslims who wouldnt have before, will now make a point of displaying their religion in public, just as an act of defiance. If you put people on the defensive, they will resist you.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Jorge
Akka, that law is going to create more problems that the ones that solve, believe me.

Only with people that want to force their religion through the laic grounds of a secular state.
People that recognize the secular nature of the state and that accept the laws aren't the one that will be concerned by this law. Only people that already refuse the very foundations of the country are about to feel annoyed by this law.

It's always be the case that religious symbols are forbidden into schools, and that secularism is built into the Constitution. If they don't want to comply with the very constitution of the country, then they get out. Simple as that.